The Winds of Winter: The Latest Info (updated 10 July 2022)

[sifth]

15 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, we know from early drafts of AFFC that Victarion and Euron were initially supposed to go to Slavers Bay together and Victarion was supposed to die early on. However, GRRM came up with a different story for Euron, with the attack on the Reach and all the creepy magic stuff, so Victarion had to go the Meereen alone and, I guess, remain a POV for longer than originally intended.

I can't really blame GRRM, Vicatrion's chapters are comedic gold. He's always the character you expect to die in each book he's in and he always somehow makes it out alive.

[SeanF]

37 minutes ago, sifth said:

I can't really blame GRRM, Vicatrion's chapters are comedic gold. He's always the character you expect to die in each book he's in and he always somehow makes it out alive.

I love the way he sheds manly tears while beating his wife to death, and feeding her body to the crabs.  I mean he had no choice, did he?  He’s a sensitive soul at heart.

[Ran]

TV show spoilers need to be marked as such, folks. This is a book-only thread.

[Gilbert Green]

20 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, we know from early drafts of AFFC that Victarion and Euron were initially supposed to go to Slavers Bay together and Victarion was supposed to die early on. However, GRRM came up with a different story for Euron, with the attack on the Reach and all the creepy magic stuff, so Victarion had to go the Meereen alone and, I guess, remain a POV for longer than originally intended.

The differences are likely not great.  It has long been suspected that Victarion will die early.  In our current books, Euron is apparently going to Slaver's Bay and he is taking Aeron with him.  That he is launching some major attack on the Reach is some weird kind of fan delusion.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Gilbert Green

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

I love the way he sheds manly tears while beating his wife to death, and feeding her body to the crabs.  I mean he had no choice, did he?  He’s a sensitive soul at heart.

Euron gets himself all hopped up on shade of the evening (not to be confused with nightshade) and capers in front of people showing off what a badass he dares to be. Vicatrion doesn't dare anything and he doesn't need any help. He's a walking human horror show and it's not posture or artifice, it's just his nature. Is the chapter The Forsaken really that much darker or more terrible than DWD's Victarion? To me Euron is actively transgressing and deliberately doing what he knows to be wrong in order to attain some sort of apotheosis or whatever ( I don't pretend to know his ends but to me he's still more Raskolnikov than anything else) but Vicatarion commits his atrocities because he's doing what he believes to be the right thing and he thinks nothing more of it. 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

21 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

In our current books, Euron is apparently going to Slaver's Bay and he is taking Aeron with him.  That he is launching some major attack on the Reach is some weird kind of fan delusion.

I strongly disagree on both of those. 

[sifth]

24 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I strongly disagree on both of those. 

Yea, it really doesn't seem very likely. It would take too much time.

[Gilbert Green]

24 minutes ago, sifth said:

Yea, it really doesn't seem very likely. It would take too much time.

A steady 12 knots is 330 miles per day.  By what logic would it take too much time?  The only reason sailing is generally slow is that the winds cannot be controlled. 

Euron sent Victarion ahead, but Euron will arrive at about the same time, if not sooner.  All the clues are there.Victarion has suffered considerable delays from unfavorable or absent winds.  Meanwhile, Euron can "ride the storm" via blood magic; as well as take shortcuts through the Smoking Sea.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Euron gets himself all hopped up on shade of the evening (not to be confused with nightshade) and capers in front of people showing off what a badass he dares to be. Vicatrion doesn't dare anything and he doesn't need any help. He's a walking human horror show and it's not posture or artifice, it's just his nature. Is the chapter The Forsaken really that much darker or more terrible than DWD's Victarion? To me Euron is actively transgressing and deliberately doing what he knows to be wrong in order to attain some sort of apotheosis or whatever ( I don't pretend to know his ends but to me he's still more Raskolnikov than anything else) but Vicatarion commits his atrocities because he's doing what he believes to be the right thing and he thinks nothing more of it.

I don't believe in worshiping devils, so I don't want to make too much of Mad Euron's badassery.  Nonetheless, between Euron and Victarion, it is clear that Euron is the senior devil, and Victarion merely a junior devil, who thinks he is out for himself, but is in fact merely Euron's puppet.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't believe in worshiping devils, so I don't want to make too much of Mad Euron's badassery.  Nonetheless, between Euron and Victarion, it is clear that Euron is the senior devil, and Victarion merely a junior devil, who thinks he is out for himself, but is in fact merely Euron's puppet.

my real wish for these series is that Greyjoys will be wiped out . it'll probably be a more pleasant world ... maybe Harlaws can take over?

[Gilbert Green]

17 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

my real wish for these series is that Greyjoys will be wiped out . it'll probably be a more pleasant world ... maybe Harlaws can take over?

Aeron Greyjoy is awesome.  He can do the kiss of life; never considers himself for the kingship; is fond of his niece Asha; spends his time among humble fisherfolk who represent the non-pirate core of Ironborn culture; continues to defy Euron after 6 months of torture; tries to save Falia; and, when he thinks he is about to die, tries to comfort Falia.  And of course, no godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Aeron Greyjoy is awesome.  He can do the kiss of life; never considers himself for the kingship; is fond of his niece Asha; spends his time among humble fisherfolk who represent the non-pirate core of Ironborn culture; continues to defy Euron after 6 months of torture; tries to save Falia; and, when he thinks he is about to die, tries to comfort Falia.  And of course, no godless man may sit the Seastone Chair.

I must say his last act of comforting Falia was one of the more heroic and humane things in the series. yet , he is as thick of a wall and can easily become a fanatic . 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:10 PM, LynnS said:

I predict the  freak-out of the century; followed by the biggest geek-out you've ever seen.

I really don’t think it will be as big as it would have been during GOT's run. Longtime fans will remember the 12 Days of Westeros debacle, when a mere rumor of Winds being announced in 2014 caused both this site and Reddit to crash, and GRRM had to personally comment on it. We're nowhere near that level of hype now, which is a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Melifeather]

On 12/21/2022 at 9:27 AM, butterweedstrover said:

Most fantasy authors personally despise literary concepts and find them pretentious.

I find this statement confusing with regard to how I understand the term "literary concept". If anything ASOIAF has multiple concepts. One striking example is the North remembers and that Winterfell has forgotten, not to mention that there is a growing threat coming from the North. Let me back this up a bit with the differences between "idea", "concept", and "premise". The "idea" of ASOIAF is a fantasy world where magic exists. The "concept" is to suggest that there are secrets hidden and that there are forces working to either keep them concealed or to reveal them. The "premise" is to have an archetypical hero (or heroine) that will save Westeros or at least as many humans as they can. Are you saying ASOIAF has no concept?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

We're nowhere near that level of hype now, which is a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

This will be me going to the bookstore on release day:

 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I find this statement confusing with regard to how I understand the term "literary concept". If anything ASOIAF has multiple concepts. One striking example is the North remembers and that Winterfell has forgotten, not to mention that there is a growing threat coming from the North. Let me back this up a bit with the differences between "idea", "concept", and "premise". The "idea" of ASOIAF is a fantasy world where magic exists. The "concept" is to suggest that there are secrets hidden and that there are forces working to either keep them concealed or to reveal them. The "premise" is to have an archetypical hero (or heroine) that will save Westeros or at least as many humans as they can. Are you saying ASOIAF has no concept?

umm... no. ASOIAF has concepts. I'm not even talking specifically about one series, just fantasy in general. 

I mean, feel free to disagree but this has just been my long time impression of authors in the genre based on their own statements explicitly or implicitly said. I mean there are a few posts I can link you to, like R. Scott Bakker's response to Harrison, Fantasy Author Panels with big names like Erikson, Sanderson, Rothfuss, etc. The overarching effort to have LotR accepted as high literature, the disdain for academic "legitimacy" and the populist rhetoric behind escapism (see: Ursula Le Guin). 

You can use different terminology if you want, but fantasy as we think of it today is focused on objective reality. The "concepts" are different from traditional literary ambition in that they allude to so physical reality with technical definitions. 

So like the secrets, foreshadowing, imagery, etc. are meant to be scientifically deciphered with a tangible meaning whereas more literary stuff from modernist writers like Joyce or Proust tend to focus on literary devices that reveal emotional (rather than plot) details open to interpretation. 

Subjects of debate in Fantasy like "is fAegon actually Aegon" while potentially being unanswerable are more interested in the practical/logical essence of the narrative. 

That doesn't mean it is all one way, the speculative genre can have literary themes and the literary genre can have speculative themes, it's more just the broad strokes of what each style is trying to achieve. Though this conversation is somewhat nebulous because I was just referencing what the authors themselves say. 

I might as well post some links besides the Martin one: 

(4:08) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ePVXRdlvvI&t=285s  

Rothfuss showing scorn for a literary interpretation for what the metaphorical meaning of something is while he as a writer is more interesting in the practical implications for his plot/character arcs. 

R. Scott Bakker's reply in an interview (scroll down to the question: "M. John Harrison wrote a blog on his post..." 

https://www.sffworld.com/2008/03/interview-r-scott-bakker/ 

I could go on, there are other interviews with newer authors like Richard Swan that say similar things. I think the point really boils down to the perception of LotR as externalizing emotions and how many of his disciples (pretty much the whole of fantasy) find the criticism used against LotR to be pretentious. 

 

[Melifeather]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

umm... no. ASOIAF has concepts. I'm not even talking specifically about one series, just fantasy in general. 

I mean, feel free to disagree but this has just been my long time impression of authors in the genre based on their own statements explicitly or implicitly said. I mean there are a few posts I can link you to, like R. Scott Bakker's response to Harrison, Fantasy Author Panels with big names like Erikson, Sanderson, Rothfuss, etc. The overarching effort to have LotR accepted as high literature, the disdain for academic "legitimacy" and the populist rhetoric behind escapism (see: Ursula Le Guin). 

You can use different terminology if you want, but fantasy as we think of it today is focused on objective reality. The "concepts" are different from traditional literary ambition in that they allude to so physical reality with technical definitions. 

So like the secrets, foreshadowing, imagery, etc. are meant to be scientifically deciphered with a tangible meaning whereas more literary stuff from modernist writers like Joyce or Proust tend to focus on literary devices that reveal emotional (rather than plot) details open to interpretation. 

Subjects of debate in Fantasy like "is fAegon actually Aegon" while potentially being unanswerable are more interested in the practical/logical essence of the narrative. 

That doesn't mean it is all one way, the speculative genre can have literary themes and the literary genre can have speculative themes, it's more just the broad strokes of what each style is trying to achieve. Though this conversation is somewhat nebulous because I was just referencing what the authors themselves say. 

I might as well post some links besides the Martin one: 

(4:08) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ePVXRdlvvI&t=285s  

Rothfuss showing scorn for a literary interpretation for what the metaphorical meaning of something is while he as a writer is more interesting in the practical implications for his plot/character arcs. 

R. Scott Bakker's reply in an interview (scroll down to the question: "M. John Harrison wrote a blog on his post..." 

https://www.sffworld.com/2008/03/interview-r-scott-bakker/ 

I could go on, there are other interviews with newer authors like Richard Swan that say similar things. I think the point really boils down to the perception of LotR as externalizing emotions and how many of his disciples (pretty much the whole of fantasy) find the criticism used against LotR to be pretentious. 

 

Okay, this discussion may be above my pay grade!  

I watched the Rothfuss segment, but I did not get the impression that he was showing scorn. He was more dismayed that the deeper levels were being revealed where people would read someone's discovery before finding it for themselves. Like GRRM, Rothfuss wants his readers to enjoy his books and be surprised when they uncover a hidden meaning and to discuss their findings with friends, but it sounds to me like he doesn't like public forums. I suppose he views them as being too spoilery? 

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

This will be me going to the bookstore on release day:

On the one hand, I'm totally with you. I don't really care if 10 people or 10 million people buy TWoW when it comes out, as long as I myself can get a copy. But sometimes I still can't help but wonder what could have been.

[butterweedstrover]

18 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Okay, this discussion may be above my pay grade! /cdn-cgi/mirage/d061fbc8a99b74d9127f1b0a19a8d29641ec2a7e3541937299ee1540bc7d0bf1/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_lol.gif 

I watched the Rothfuss segment, but I did not get the impression that he was showing scorn. He was more dismayed that the deeper levels were being revealed where people would read someone's discovery before finding it for themselves. Like GRRM, Rothfuss wants his readers to enjoy his books and be surprised when they uncover a hidden meaning and to discuss their findings with friends, but it sounds to me like he doesn't like public forums. I suppose he views them as being too spoilery? 

 

 

Well again this is just my impression but authors like Rothfuss typically ridicule metaphorical analysis of their books because they find it pretentious or obnoxious. 
 

Go back a few seconds to see how that interaction started and you (or at least me) get the feeling that he finds deeper literary readings to be… kinda meant for an eighth grade school report, like D&D. 
 

D&D could also subconsciously implement themes into their TV show, but like fantasy authors they find the practical usages of character for drama and plot to triumph over literary concepts. 
 

Which makes the criticism of D&D a little unfair since they are responding the same way a lot of big name authors would (if not a little standoffish). 

[SeanF]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Well again this is just my impression but authors like Rothfuss typically ridicule metaphorical analysis of their books because they find it pretentious or obnoxious. 
 

Go back a few seconds to see how that interaction started and you (or at least me) get the feeling that he finds deeper literary readings to be… kinda meant for an eighth grade school report, like D&D. 
 

D&D could also subconsciously implement themes into their TV show, but like fantasy authors they find the practical usages of character for drama and plot to triumph over literary concepts. 
 

Which makes the criticism of D&D a little unfair since they are responding the same way a lot of big name authors would (if not a little standoffish). 

IMHO the distinction between genre writing and “literature” makes little sense.