Shadowfax3 Posted July 11, 2022 Share Posted July 11, 2022 Rough estimates of each house’s military strength in Westeros (The North, The Riverlands, The Vale, The Westerlands and The Reach) - might do The Stormlands, Dorne, The Crownlands and The Iron Islands at some point as well. These are rough estimates based on factors like geographical location, economic power, fertility & produce of a region, population and the prestige of a house. I have used some semi-cannon sources mixed with logical guesses based off GRRM’s work. These estimates will not support everything written in the books but are based from figures and descriptions given by Martin. I have focused on the main houses of each kingdom but put in other smaller and lesser houses in some circumstances to account for numbers elsewhere. The North: 8000 - Manderly 5000 - Bolton 6000 - Stark 3000- Mountain Clans 3000 - Umber 3000 - Karstark 4000 - Dustin 500- Skagos 2500 - Glover 1500 - Tallhart 2000 - Ryswell 2000 - Hornwood 1000- Reed 2000 - Flint of Widow's Watch 2000 - Flint of Flints Finger 500-1000 - Mormont (really can’t figure this one out) 1000 - Cerwyn 50,000 fighting men 50+ ships Manderly also probably has about 3,000 sailers but up to you if you class these as fighting men. Riverlands: Tully-6,000 Blackwood-3,000 Bracken-4,000 Chambers-200 Charlton-100 Darry-1,500 Erenford-300 Frey-5,000 Goodbrook-1,000 Grell-300 Harwick-2,000 Lychester-2,500 Mallister-4,000 Mooton-3,000 Pemford-200 Piper-3,000 Roote-1,000 Ryger-500 Smallwood-200 Terrick-500 Vance of Atranta-2,000 Vance of Wayfarer’s rest-2,000 Vypern-300 Whent-1,200 Haigh-500 Grey-300 Wode-1,000 45,000 fighting men 20 ships? The Westerlands: Lannister-8,000 Algood-100 Banefort-2,500 Bettley-400 Brax-3,500 Broom-200 Broome-300 Crakehall-4,000 Clegane-1,000 Doggett-200 Drox-200 Estren-200 Falwell-200 Farman-200 Ferren-300 Foote-300 Garner-700 Hamell-300 Hawthorne-800 Jast-200 Kenning of Kayce-1,000 Kyndall-500 Lefford-4,000 Lydden-2,000 Marbrand-5,000 Moreland-400 Myatt-300 Payne-500 Plumm-1,000 Prester-300 Sarsfield-1,500 Serrett-3,000 Swyft-2,000 Stackspear-2,000 Turnberry-200 Westerling-1,000 Yarwyc-500 50,000 men 30+ ships The Vale: House Arryn of the Eyrie-5,000 House Arryn of Gulltown-200 House Baelish of the Fingers-50 House Belmore of Strongsong-3,500 House Borrell of Sweetsister-100 House Crayne-100 House Coldwater of Coldwater Burn-4,500 House Corbray of Heart's Home-5,000 House Egen-500 House Elesham of the Paps-300 House Grafton of Gulltown-3,000 House Hardyng-500 House Hersy of Newkeep-300 House Hunter of Longbow Hall-2,000 House Longthorpe of Longsister-200 House Lynderly of Snakewood-2,500 House Melcolm of Old Anchor-3,000 House Moore-300 House Pryor of Pebble-400 House Redfort of Redfort-2,000 House Royce of Runestone-5,000 House Royce of the Gates of the Moon-300 House Ruthermont-400 House Shett-1,500 House Sunderland of the Three Sisters-600 House Templeton of Ninestars-2,500 House Tollett of the Grey Glen-1,000 House Torrent of Littlesister-150 House Upcliff of the Witch Isle-200 House Waxley of Wickenden-2,000 House Waynwood of Ironoaks-3,000 50,000 men 200+ ships The Reach: Tyrell-5,000 Ambrose-1,000 Appleton-1,000 Ashford-3,000 Beesbury-1,000 Blackbar-1,000 Bulwer-2,000 Caswell-4,000 Costayne-2,000 Crane-3,000 Cuy-3,000 Florent-2,000 Fossoway of Cider Hall-3,000 Fossoway of New Barrel-1,000 Footly-4,000 Hightower-12,000 Meadows-1,500 Merryweather-2,000 Oakheart-3,000 Peake-3,000 Redwyne-8,000 Shermer-1,000 Tarly-6,000 Hewett-1,500 Hunt-1,000 Leygood-1,500 Roxton-1,000 Stackhouse-1,500 Osgrey of Standfast-1,500 80,000+ men 200+ ships let me know if you agree/disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Artos Llyn Posted July 12, 2022 Share Posted July 12, 2022 I'm not going to examine every bannerman (because I simply don't have the information to make an informed guess) but here's what the old semi-canon d20 rpg had to say for each region as a whole and what I think personally. The North D20: 45,000 My Opinion: 45,000 During Aegon's Conquest the Starks were able to assemble 30,000 soldiers and given real life demographic trends the population of the North has probably grown since then. Robb was able to get 22,000 in the Wot5K, but we know that the assembly was rushed, that a number of bannerman may have held back men out of concern for the coming winter, that the hill clans and Skagosi apparently didn't contribute at all, and that the Manderlys at least still have a significant force even after everyone they sent south was presumably wiped out; all in all suggesting that Robb was only able to gather around half of the North's total military strength seems fair. The d20 numbers seem about accurate. The Riverlands D20: 45,000 My Opinion: 60,000 No, we don't see anything like these numbers in the books, but for a region as large and with so much open (and fertile) land I can't imagine the Riverlands not having more soldiers the d20 gives. Their lack of numbers in the Wot5K can largely be explained away by the early smashing of several armies and decapitation of several major families by the Lannisters. The Vale D20: 45,000 My Opinion: 45,000 GRRM says their numbers are similar to the North and the Vale is a decent size with a good deal of open land between the mountains. No reason to doubt the d20 numbers. The Westerlands D20: 50,000 My Opinion: 50,000 During the Wot5K Jaime's and Tywin's armies have a combined number of at least 35,000, and that's after several initial battles with the Riverlords and not counting the Clegane raiders. On top of that, there are still significant forces to be raised in the Westerlands when they need to defend against Robb's counteroffensives and Lannisport oversees a pretty decent-sized fleet. Once again the d20 numbers seem about accurate. The Stormlands D20: 30,000 My Estimate: 40,000 The Stormlands are too large and too martially inclined for the d20 numbers and I imagine the Stormlords can field something similar if slightly smaller than the Vale or the Westerlands. Assuming not all the Stormlords declared for either Baratheon brother right away, that means perhaps 30,000 of the host of 80,000 Renly had at Bitterbridge (more on that below) could have been from the Stormlands. The Reach D20: 80,000 to 100,000 My Opinion: 80,000+ If 30,000 or so of the 80,000 at Bitterbridge were Stormlanders than 50,000 would be from the Reach. This seems to support d20's numbers given that probably not all the lords present were yet willing to commit their full forces and the Hightowers - who I believe with their bannerman could potentially field 15-20,000 soldiers alone - were staying out of the fray. Plus, the Reach is the largest AND most fertile part of Westeros. Dorne D20: 50,000 My Estimate: 30,000 D20 used the numbers given by Daeron in his conquest, but we know those numbers to be greatly exaggerated. Given the size and dominant terrain of Dorne, 30,000 seems like the uppermost limit. I'm not bothering with the Iron Islands or the Crownlands because their power is mostly ship-based and the required manpower could vary wildly based on the exact ships used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted July 14, 2022 Share Posted July 14, 2022 @Shadowfax3 One of the problems I see with your estimates is that it doesn't seem to take into account the different levels of vassalage within the noble houses. The Great Houses are unlikely to have many men at arms directly responding to them, because their forces will come through intermediate 'middle' lords. For instance, the Starks are very unlikely to command eight thousand men as you suggest. They'd basically only control the guards of Winterfell, and whoever lifes in Winter Town. For the rest of the nearby population, they would rely on the petty lords and masters who would rule over small keeps and holdfasts. So their strength woul either be 45,000 (because rule over all the North) or a few hundreds. Besides that, I'd try to comment on where I think that your calculations is contradicted by what we know. The North The Manderlys are very tricky to guess, but I think that giving them 8,000 is way too much. When Wylis and Wendel join Robb's army they only bring 1,500 men. Afterwards, when Theon takes Winterfell, they only send a few hundred knights to help Rodrik take it back. It's very strange that a house that is shown as very loyal and devoted to the Starks contribute with such a small portion of their men in times of need. Also, Lord Wyman is said to bring only three hundred men with him at Winterfell when Roose summons him. One would think that Roose would be openly infuriated with him if he had reasons to believe Wyman had several thousand fresh men at white Harbor. For this reason, I think that your number should be reduced by half, if not more. You also missed the mountain clans, that together contribute with up to 3 thousand men. The Riverlands FIB tells us that "House Tully was unique amongst the great houses of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had made them the Lords Paramount of the Trident, yet in many ways they continued to be overshadowed by many of their own bannermen. The Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Vances all ruled wider domains and could field much larger armies, as could the upstart Freys of the Twins. " So your estimate for the Tullys should be below the figures for those five houses. Since the Freys are said to be able to muster 4,000 men, I'd put the two Vances, Brackens and Blackwoods at the same level, and the Tullys at 3,000. The Mallisters are said lots of prestige and a "proud lineage", but are not included in this list of big houses, so your estimate should probably be reduced too. Westerlands I don't think it's likely that the unnamed keep of an upstarted kennelmaster rules over lands big enough to muster one thousand men. Gregor is important as a commander in Tywin's army because of his brute strength and brutality, but he's an insignificant landholder on his own. Meanwhile, you assign very little manpower to houses that appear to be significant players in the West (Farman, Jast, ....) Vale Not much to mention here, but I'm not sure why think houses such Coldwater, Melcolm or Lynderly are as powerful. They haven't been mentioned much, so far. Reach You don't include in your list some very important houses from the Reach: Rowan, Mullendore, three of the Shield Island houses,... I think the figure you give for the Hightowers (20,000 when you factore in their vassals) and the Redwynes (8,000) are a little too high. It's an area that represents less than a fifth of the area of the Reach, so I wouldn't expect to represent a third of the manpower of the area. The Sworn Sword shows us exactly how many men house Osgrey can muster: eight. BTW... those big letters make it very difficult to read your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted July 14, 2022 Share Posted July 14, 2022 On 7/12/2022 at 2:51 PM, Lord Artos Llyn said: The Riverlands D20: 45,000 My Opinion: 60,000 No, we don't see anything like these numbers in the books, but for a region as large and with so much open (and fertile) land I can't imagine the Riverlands not having more soldiers the d20 gives. Their lack of numbers in the Wot5K can largely be explained away by the early smashing of several armies and decapitation of several major families by the Lannisters. I'd agree that on normal conditions, the Riverlands may be able to muster above the 45k figure. A potential explanation for the D20 estimation and the more modest armies in the Wot5K may be that they suffered a lot of losses during Robert's Rebellion, just 17 years ago. The Riverlands were the most divided area (almost a civil war), and where most of the fighting took place. The houses that fought with the Targaryens (Goodbrook, Mooton, Darry, Whent...) do not seem to have recovered after the war, and apparently Hoster felt particularly vengeful. For all this, the Trident may be underpopulated at the moment. On 7/12/2022 at 2:51 PM, Lord Artos Llyn said: The Stormlands D20: 30,000 My Estimate: 40,000 The Stormlands are too large and too martially inclined for the d20 numbers and I imagine the Stormlords can field something similar if slightly smaller than the Vale or the Westerlands. Assuming not all the Stormlords declared for either Baratheon brother right away, that means perhaps 30,000 of the host of 80,000 Renly had at Bitterbridge (more on that below) could have been from the Stormlands. Not sure about that one. Most of the Stormlands land seems to be pretty inhospitable: the red mountains, Cape Wrath, the huge kingswood... Their coast is apparently very craggy and full of cliffs. And the map only show a single small town. Nothing seems to indicate that they have a population comparable to the Vale or the Westerlands. On 7/12/2022 at 2:51 PM, Lord Artos Llyn said: The Reach D20: 80,000 to 100,000 My Opinion: 80,000+ If 30,000 or so of the 80,000 at Bitterbridge were Stormlanders than 50,000 would be from the Reach. This seems to support d20's numbers given that probably not all the lords present were yet willing to commit their full forces and the Hightowers - who I believe with their bannerman could potentially field 15-20,000 soldiers alone - were staying out of the fray. Plus, the Reach is the largest AND most fertile part of Westeros. Although the Hightowers didn't join Renly's army, it seems most of their bannermen did (Mullendore, Cuy, Beesbury). For this reason, I'd guess that the total strength of the Reach is probably a lot more closer to 80k than 100k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 16 hours ago, The hairy bear said: The Manderlys are very tricky to guess, but I think that giving them 8,000 is way too much. When Wylis and Wendel join Robb's army they only bring 1,500 men. Afterwards, when Theon takes Winterfell, they only send a few hundred knights to help Rodrik take it back. It's very strange that a house that is shown as very loyal and devoted to the Starks contribute with such a small portion of their men in times of need. Also, Lord Wyman is said to bring only three hundred men with him at Winterfell when Roose summons him. One would think that Roose would be openly infuriated with him if he had reasons to believe Wyman had several thousand fresh men at white Harbor. For this reason, I think that your number should be reduced by half, if not more. I assume that most available men for Manderlys are needed to man their navy. If each of those 46 ships would have crew of 200 men then they would need 9600 men just for that purpose. So there are 3 options 1. Manderlys either do not have so many warships or they are not going to use all of them same time. 2. Each ship would need less men to use. 3. Somehow House M has access over 9000 men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: I assume that most available men for Manderlys are needed to man their navy. If each of those 46 ships would have crew of 200 men then they would need 9600 men just for that purpose. So there are 3 options 1. Manderlys either do not have so many warships or they are not going to use all of them same time. 2. Each ship would need less men to use. 3. Somehow House M has access over 9000 men. The crew of a warship are not all fighting men and Lord Manderly actually says that most of the men on the ships are fishermen from the white knife and the bite, these could be men who are not of fighting age and fitnes. So in terms of men of fighting age and fitnes you probably have to cut the number in half with the half of the crew not fighting fit running the ship and manning the sails during a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted July 15, 2022 Share Posted July 15, 2022 4 hours ago, direpupy said: The crew of a warship are not all fighting men and Lord Manderly actually says that most of the men on the ships are fishermen from the white knife and the bite, these could be men who are not of fighting age and fitnes. So in terms of men of fighting age and fitnes you probably have to cut the number in half with the half of the crew not fighting fit running the ship and manning the sails during a fight. Actually most warships in Westeros are powered by oars not sails. So effective warships should have fit and well trained crews. After all warships with weak rowers would be easy prey to any warships with well trained and strong crew. Or I assume that instead of manning those ships most men in those crews could become some kind of spearmen. Naturally assuming that there would be enough available spears and shields for them and somebody would train them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted July 16, 2022 Share Posted July 16, 2022 23 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: Actually most warships in Westeros are powered by oars not sails. So effective warships should have fit and well trained crews. After all warships with weak rowers would be easy prey to any warships with well trained and strong crew. Or I assume that instead of manning those ships most men in those crews could become some kind of spearmen. Naturally assuming that there would be enough available spears and shields for them and somebody would train them. Thats a common misconception on the fleets in westeros the galley's get the most attention because of the description of there number of oars which is why most people read over the fact that a lot of warships are sailed, for instance of the 200 ships in Stannis his fleet in the battle of the Blackwater 80 are sailed ships with no oars. But even if we are talking war galley's it makes no difference the oars would need to be manned during the fight or you would not be able to disengage from a enemy ship or maneuver. So the rowers are not fighting men and the idea that rowers have to be young and "fit" is a misconception. In favorable winds even galley's would be powered by there square mainsail and not there oars and if rowing at cruising speed all day the exertion would still not be high because even after a day of rowing the would have to be able to bring the galley up to battle/raming speed. Tests with the full scale replica trireme Olympias in the late 1980's proved that you did not need young and "fit" men for rowing, a average person would be able to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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