Star Trek: There! Are! 4! shows!

[Wouter]

Very moving episode on Prodigy this week. Surprised how far it went. Looking forward to the last part.

[Werthead]

Seeing the Defiant again was awesome, and also the Sovereign. It does make you wonder if the other Sovereign-class that was doing a lot of damage was the Enterprise-E.

That cliffhanger is pretty oof though. Best of Both Worlds/Call to Arms levels of "how the hell do they get out of this one?" Hopefully the answer won't be too cheesy, like Janeway calls on Q to fix the jam or something.

[Werthead]

That was an outstanding finale. Completely bizarre how, of all the new shows, the CG Nickelodeon show is the one that emerges with the best "mystery" storyline and the best-executed story arc of them all. Really good stuff.

Rewatching TOS and marvelling at how top-tier, great episodes sit alongside absolute dogshit that barely passed muster in 1967, let alone now. The Alternate Factor is such an awful execution of a really strong, clever premise, and it's right next to City on the Edge of Forever.

I'd also forgotten what a strong horror vibe there is in TOS. They really go all-out disturbing quite a few times in the first season.

[Wouter]

On 12/30/2022 at 8:00 PM, Werthead said:

That was an outstanding finale. Completely bizarre how, of all the new shows, the CG Nickelodeon show is the one that emerges with the best "mystery" storyline and the best-executed story arc of them all. Really good stuff.

 

Agreed, and the 2nd part of the finale had at least 2 very moving moments. The Hagemans aren't kidding when they say they wanted to elicit the same kind of emotions as Wrath of Khan. Prodigy has a cinematic feel to it, but without the cardboard villains the movies have had since Nemesis.

Best first season of any Trek series, for me, it's that good (admittedly most Trek shows have relatively weak first seasons, even DS9). 

With an ending like this, season 2 will be quite a different animal. Can't wait to see how it will turn out.

Sadly, a season 3 has yet to be confirmed and the Hageman's said that today's TV climate is frightening. I hope they are able to continue.

 

[IheartIheartTesla]

To be honest I got a bit bored with the first 15 minutes of Prodigy and never got back into it. Might be worth a revisit as we wait for Picard and SNW to kick off. Not sure what I'd do then with the thread title, though.

[Werthead]

20 minutes ago, Wouter said:

Agreed, and the 2nd part of the finale had at least 2 very moving moments. The Hagemans aren't kidding when they say they wanted to elicit the same kind of emotions as Wrath of Khan. Prodigy has a cinematic feel to it, but without the cardboard villains the movies have had since Nemesis.

Best first season of any Trek series, for me, it's that good (admittedly most Trek shows have relatively weak first seasons, even DS9). 

With an ending like this, season 2 will be quite a different animal. Can't wait to see how it will turn out.

Sadly, a season 3 has yet to be confirmed and the Hageman's said that today's TV climate is frightening. I hope they are able to continue.

I've seen a few people saying that Prodigy was planned to be four 10-episode seasons but Nickelodeon threw a strop as they wanted more episodes so they switched it to two 20-episode seasons, but each season split in half so it's effectively the same thing, and it means Paramount can deliver a higher level of CG quality (which they really need to sell the show to adult Trek fans on Paramount+). I think the situation is that it means they're guaranteed two seasons in a row, effectively, twice over.

I think of all the streamers, Paramount+ is the one arguably enjoying the biggest boost in numbers at the moment because of Trek and the slightly inexplicable Yellowstone phenomenon (Halo helped as well, despite being only okay at best), so the Trek shows are not in the same position of vulnerability as, say, anything at all on HBO Max.

8 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

To be honest I got a bit bored with the first 15 minutes of Prodigy and never got back into it. Might be worth a revisit as we wait for Picard and SNW to kick off. Not sure what I'd do then with the thread title, though.

What Prodigy starts off being and where it ends up are two quite different things. Lots of interesting twists and it kind of transforms into a Voyager sequel series as a subplot.

[Lord Varys]

33 minutes ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

To be honest I got a bit bored with the first 15 minutes of Prodigy and never got back into it. Might be worth a revisit as we wait for Picard and SNW to kick off. Not sure what I'd do then with the thread title, though.

Give it a try. It is the best ST series out there right now. And I'm saying this without having watched the second half of the first season so far.

[DaveSumm]

Yea in as much as a pilot is supposed to give you a flavour of the show it’s going to be, Prodigy’s pilot fails massively. It doesn’t feel anything like the show once it hits episode 3 or 4. 

[Wouter]

On 1/2/2023 at 9:16 AM, DaveSumm said:

Yea in as much as a pilot is supposed to give you a flavour of the show it’s going to be, Prodigy’s pilot fails massively. It doesn’t feel anything like the show once it hits episode 3 or 4. 

It introduces the characters nicely - particularly the finer points of the relationships between the Diviner and Gwyn, and between Dal and Gwyn are introduced here (and those things get payed off later). The other "protogies" are also competently introduced. The final episode of S1 also nicely bookends the pilot.

It does not feel like Trek yet, no, but it's a good start in its own right. Only Dal's cocky behaviour is really a problem in the first few episodes.

@Werthead: It's good to hear that Paramount+ is doing well (in the US then, I suppose), but Nickolodeon is also in play. I think the fear is more that they might stop co-financing, which could offer opportunities if Paramount/CBS are willing to foot the bill (maybe for a couple animated movies rather than a new season), but could also sink the show. 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

@Werthead: It's good to hear that Paramount+ is doing well (in the US then, I suppose), but Nickolodeon is also in play. I think the fear is more that they might stop co-financing, which could offer opportunities if Paramount/CBS are willing to foot the bill (maybe for a couple animated movies rather than a new season), but could also sink the show. 

I think it's outside as well. I'm surprised at how many people I know have picked up Paramount+ in the UK, far more than any who have ever bothered with Apple TV+, despite the hype for Ted Lasso.

[IheartIheartTesla]

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

It does not feel like Trek yet, no, but it's a good start in its own right. Only Dal's cocky behaviour is really a problem in the first few episodes.

I think the way he was portrayed (in the first few episodes) was also a big turn off for me. I'm now up to episode 6 and there is indeed a huge improvement. So far my favorite part has been watching Del take the Kobayashi Maru test a 100 times.

[Werthead]

DS9 turned 30 years yesterday. Someone made this trailer for the 20th anniversary that is pretty good, if a bit cheesy.

Also, "from the writers of Game of Thrones," is a bit of a stretch but technically correct (Jane Espenson wrote one episode of DS9 and co-wrote one very heavily-rewritten episode of GoT).

19 hours ago, IheartIheartTesla said:

I think the way he was portrayed (in the first few episodes) was also a big turn off for me. I'm now up to episode 6 and there is indeed a huge improvement. So far my favorite part has been watching Del take the Kobayashi Maru test a 100 times.

With that all-time classic Star Trek rumble squad of the best officers helping him, to their evident dismay.

[Werthead]

This is interesting. Writers from TNG, DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, Discovery, Picard, Lower Decks and Strange New Worlds talk about stuff.

[RumHam]

I bailed on Prodigy I think during the second episode. You guys have sold me on giving it a second chance. Normally I give any Star Trek show a season to get its shit together but the "kids show" thing dampened my interests.

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Cas Stark]

Fuck it.  I started watching Star Trek reruns again.  There will never, ever be anyone like James Tiberius Kirk.  Ever.  Picard is obviously a close second, but the rest of them, no.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Fuck it.  I started watching Star Trek reruns again.  There will never, ever be anyone like James Tiberius Kirk.  Ever.  Picard is obviously a close second, but the rest of them, no.

Ah, come on, the guy is constantly badly doubled in so-called 'action scenes'. Not sure if he is even James Tiberius Kirk in TOS. Wasn't the middle name first introduced in TAS? And then only properly canonized by the movies? Tiberius stands in stark contrast to James R. Kirk from TOS's pilot - and one of Kirk's best buddies turned divine being should know the truth better than anyone else...

Scott Bakula has much more manly gravitas than William Shatner could ever hope to have.

[Cas Stark]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Ah, come on, the guy is constantly badly doubled in so-called 'action scenes'. Not sure if he is even James Tiberius Kirk in TOS. Wasn't the middle name first introduced in TAS? And then only properly canonized by the movies? Tiberius stands in stark contrast to James R. Kirk from TOS's pilot - and one of Kirk's best buddies turned divine being should know the truth better than anyone else...

Scott Bakula has much more manly gravitas than William Shatner could ever hope to have.

That is truly insane.

I don't care about the bad action scenes, the bad costumes, the bad effects or the mini-skirts.  Indeed, some of this is part of the charm.  Shatner as Kirk is a performance for the ages.  It shouldn't work.  On some levels the OTT acting is also insane, but for some reason, it does work.  

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That is truly insane.

I don't care about the bad action scenes, the bad costumes, the bad effects or the mini-skirts.  Indeed, some of this is part of the charm.  Shatner as Kirk is a performance for the ages.  It shouldn't work.  On some levels the OTT acting is also insane, but for some reason, it does work.  

I'm not saying the show sucks. I enjoy it, too. But it is by no means timeless joy (for me the deal breaker is the bad teeth of the actors), and I'd say as actors both Nimoy and Kelley are much better than Shatner.

I certainly would agree that Shatner is the only Kirk there is - although I find it a much more heinous to have fucking Karl Urban thinking he can play Bones. That's just blasphemy.

Having some British Shakespeare actor play a Frenchman was also not exactly a great choice ... and much less so the silly claim that the French language of all languages would not survive into the 24th century. They would first strangle every English-speaking barbarian with their bare hands before they would give up French.

[Werthead]

At the start of TOS Shatner is pretty good, and I'd say throughout Season 1 gives a very solid and occasionally outstanding (City on the Edge of Forever) performance. He's pretty reliably good through early Season 2 as well.

It's hard to pin exactly when it happens, but mid-Season 2 he starts hamming it up, first ever so slightly and then towards the end of the season we see the first bursts of Full Shatner. And then in Season 3 he's very clearly phoning it the fuck in and doing whatever the hell he wants and the directors have no time to force him into better performances. Slightly unprofessional. We know, very few exceptions aside, Season 3 was dogshit, but when Nimoy is performing Spock's Brain with 100% commitment, Shatner has 0 excuse for not bringing his A-game as well.

In the films it's funny to see that Meyer worked out how to get Shatner's best performances, which was to get him to do five or six takes and then use the slightly exhausted later takes when he wasn't going 150%. Reportedly Shatner had a hell of a time delivering the "Now, Mr. Spock line" when Spock sends the override signal to the Reliant, at least in a sane way that wasn't too obviously triumphant. Apparently he let that slip to Nimoy, who used the idea himself, which is why we get great Shatner performances in II, III, IV and VI*, and why V (Shatner selecting his own) isn't as good. Although, interestingly, Shatner was actually highly rated as a director by his fellow actors on V, even the ones who hated him, and he did arguably get Kelley's best performance (in the scene where Kelley relives the death of McCoy's father).

But yeah, I don't think anyone is going to argue that Shatner is as good an actor as Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew or Mount. Brooks is idiosyncratic as an actor and sometimes went a bit weird and occasionally even Shatner-esque OTT, but when he was fucking on it (In the Pale Moonlight, Far Beyond the Stars), only really Stewart could top him.

Shatner at his best definitely got the assignment, and he always responded well to good writing. The dividing line of a good actor from a merely okay one is how he handles shit material, and Shatner did not handle the mediocre or outright shit material very well, unlike Nimoy, Kelley, Stewart, Brooks, Mulgrew (who rarely had to deal with anything else) etc.

 

* Apparently there's a very good take of Shatner saying, "let them die!" in VI and then looks shocked and horrified at what he just said, to show that Kirk wasn't really advocating genocide. But for some reason Meyer went with the take showing Kirk as unrepentant.