Star Trek: There! Are! 4! shows!

[sifth]

Alright, now that was a fun episode of Picard. My hope next week we get an episode like Disaster, where the entire ship is in danger of being destroyed and everyone has to work together to fix it, with certain characters trapped in different locations.

[RumHam]

I just watched it a few days ago, and I'm totally blanking on how Odo killed the changling in The Adversary. I remember him saying he never uses a phaser in that same episode, but I must have been looking at my phone when he actually killed the guy. 

Spoiler

Anyway I guess the question we should be asking is who is episode six's titular imposter. Worf, Raffi and Jack are out. it'd be super weird if it was Picard himself. Maybe Riker, and that's why he's estranged from Troi. But that doesn't feel right either because what would he be waiting for he could just lower the shields and surrender. 

I should really go back and watch the start of the first episode. Because wasn't someone locked up on Beverly's ship pounding on the door to be released? But Beverly not being Beverly would ruin that great conversation with Picard. 

I supposed it could just be some random person, but that would be a let down.

 

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I just watched it a few days ago, and I'm totally blanking on how Odo killed the changling in The Adversary. I remember him saying he never uses a phaser in that same episode, but I must have been looking at my phone when he actually killed the guy. 

  Hide contents

Anyway I guess the question we should be asking is who is episode six's titular imposter. Worf, Raffi and Jack are out. it'd be super weird if it was Picard himself. Maybe Riker, and that's why he's estranged from Troi. But that doesn't feel right either because what would he be waiting for he could just lower the shields and surrender. 

I should really go back and watch the start of the first episode. Because wasn't someone locked up on Beverly's ship pounding on the door to be released? But Beverly not being Beverly would ruin that great conversation with Picard. 

I supposed it could just be some random person, but that would be a let down.

 

Odo killed the Changling Saboteur by electrocuting him.

[Jaxom 1974]

49 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I just watched it a few days ago, and I'm totally blanking on how Odo killed the changling in The Adversary. I remember him saying he never uses a phaser in that same episode, but I must have been looking at my phone when he actually killed the guy. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Anyway I guess the question we should be asking is who is episode six's titular imposter. Worf, Raffi and Jack are out. it'd be super weird if it was Picard himself. Maybe Riker, and that's why he's estranged from Troi. But that doesn't feel right either because what would he be waiting for he could just lower the shields and surrender. 

I should really go back and watch the start of the first episode. Because wasn't someone locked up on Beverly's ship pounding on the door to be released? But Beverly not being Beverly would ruin that great conversation with Picard. 

I supposed it could just be some random person, but that would be a let down.

 

Spoiler

I thought itvwas Episode 5 that was titles, "Imposter"?

And I still hold the theory that there is a second Changeling on the Titan...that at some point after Riker leaves Picard and Crusher with Jack, and they have a chat, he's switched out there, because after that is when he seems to be looking to flee, not fight...

Though it's most likely someone we've not seen yet, but will in Episode 4...

 

[RumHam]

34 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

  Hide contents

I thought itvwas Episode 5 that was titles, "Imposter"?

And I still hold the theory that there is a second Changeling on the Titan...that at some point after Riker leaves Picard and Crusher with Jack, and they have a chat, he's switched out there, because after that is when he seems to be looking to flee, not fight...

Though it's most likely someone we've not seen yet, but will in Episode 4...

 

Yeah, you're right. I misremembered because I'd heard they released six episodes for review. For some reason I figured that was the last one with the huge twist. 

[Werthead]

This is interesting, and counter-intuitive. The Reliant is almost 20% larger than the Enterprise, and helps back up the idea that the reason we don't see the Constitution class past the movies is that Miranda-class basically directly supplants it, being better-armed, faster and with larger internal volume, but in a more compact configuration.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

To the really mad Trekkie nerds:

Is there good atlas/map literature out there about the four quadrants, the Federation, Romulan, Klingon, etc. worlds?

[Werthead]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

To the really mad Trekkie nerds:

Is there good atlas/map literature out there about the four quadrants, the Federation, Romulan, Klingon, etc. worlds?

Stellar Cartography: The Star Trek Reference Library (2nd Edition, 2017) is the effectively-canon, official atlas of the Star Trek universe. It's so official, they've based all of the on-screen maps from Discovery onwards on it, so it's now regarded as reliable.

The creators, though, note that Star Trek was never made with speed or distance consistency in mind, so there are anomalies and problems they've had to ignore to get everything to make sense.

The collection is a sequel to the earlier Star Trek: Star Charts (2002) and is generally superior, featuring more locations and greater detail, but Star Charts had a detailed map of the Delta Quadrant based on Voyager, which this collection lacks for some reason (it's relegated to a small sub-map rather than getting its own thing).

Pretty much all Star Trek maps made in the last 20 years use the same layout based on the two publications.

[Rippounet]

Well, I'll be damned, Picard did improve after all. Though it's a bit hard to say whether the show is genuinely better, or whether it's just the gathering of characters I might actually care about out of nostalgia - which was always the main selling point of this third season.

It's still full of flaws, and I find it difficult to be truly immerged in it. But Worf's re-introduction was the appropriate mix of badass and funny. Stewart's acting in his confrontation scene with Beverly was top-notch - though perhaps a bit over-acted for Trek? Even Asshole captain is now just... depressed and/or incompetent?
If the plot develops properly, this could be decent. But at present that's still a pretty big "if," and I'd rather keep my expectations low.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Rippounet said:

If the plot develops properly, this could be decent. But at present that's still a pretty big "if," and I'd rather keep my expectations low.

Pretty much that. Still don't like the things about episode 3 I pointed out above, but they didn't jump me in the face this time. I genuinely enjoyed watching the episode.

And, yes, Asshead Captain suddenly felt like a not so bad kind of guy. While that flies well on the emotional level, it still doesn't explain why he acted like he did earlier. In fact, it makes it even more weird.

@Werthead

Thank you! The better book doesn't seem to be available right now, though. Hope I get it anyway somehow.

[williamjm]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:05 PM, RumHam said:

  Hide contents

I should really go back and watch the start of the first episode. Because wasn't someone locked up on Beverly's ship pounding on the door to be released? But Beverly not being Beverly would ruin that great conversation with Picard. 

I supposed it could just be some random person, but that would be a let down.

Spoiler

If I remember correctly in the first episode someone is trying to get to Beverly to help her but she locks the door to the room they're in to take on the boarders alone. We don't see who they are then, but in retrospect she's obviously trying to protect Jack.

The latest episode was definitely fun to watch, there's nothing particularly original in the cat-and-mouse game in the nebula while also having the simultaneous events on the Titan but the episode does move at a good pace. I think it's a shame that some of the details let it down.

Spoiler

I can believe Beverly deciding to raise her son alone away from the dangers of the Enterprise, but I'm struggling with the idea that she wouldn't tell Picard about it at all. He might not be happy about it, but he can't stop her from leaving if she wants and she doesn't seem like someone who avoids awkward but necessary conversations.

 

[RumHam]

5 hours ago, williamjm said:

  Hide contents

If I remember correctly in the first episode someone is trying to get to Beverly to help her but she locks the door to the room they're in to take on the boarders alone. We don't see who they are then, but in retrospect she's obviously trying to protect Jack.

 

Spoiler

I love that he's this roguish charmer character who travels the galaxy with his mommy and she locks him up when shit hits the fan. That doesn't feel right to me, but I'm hesitant to read too much into it, given how shitty the Picard writing has been prior to this season. 

I still kinda can't believe they gave Riker a speech about how he knew he'd do anything to save his kid when we already know he didn't do that. He could have left federation space or jacked Lore or B4's head to cure his kid. 

I'd love to think that plus his separation from Troi were building towards a Thomas Riker reveal (Imposter!), but I doubt it. 

 

[Caligula_K3]

It's finally going to happen. I'm going to watch TNG.

But I'm not a masochist, and I need a good watch-list so I can avoid the crap and the horrible. Encounter at Farpoint already almost put me into a coma, and I know that's considered to be one of the best season 1 episodes.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a watch-list? I remember a few years ago, after I finished DS9, I floated the idea of watching TNG and a user posted what seemed like a good one. Unfortunately, it seems that thread has been deleted from the board.

[RumHam]

Spoiler

I'm confused by the timeline of "Picard is hunted by Hirogen in the alpha quadrant" They asked if he got advice from Janeway, so this has to be after Voyager came back but Worf was still there? 

I didn't know nebula's had gravity wells, but I don't know much about them.

It's weird how pessimistic they've made Riker. Don't they have shuttles? Then they could send for help or at least save some people. The way Riker describes his son's death leading to his estrangement from Troi feels like it ignores how they were in season one. 

They have a separate power system for a doom holodeck, but not to like... have more life support? What a stupid justification for setting that scene in the bar instead of just the mess hall or someone's quarters. 

God damn these "five years ago" cadets are dicks. Let the man eat his lunch!

Everyone in the doom holodeck is totally waiting for the admiral to leave so they can start the orgy. 

So far I like the slight redesign of the changelings to make them more monstery and The Thing-ish.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Meh.

[Jaxom 1974]

Interesting to do nearly a full on bottle episode when you only have ten episodes...but it wasn't horrible. It might not rank in the top half of the seasons episodes when all is said and done, but it was solid.

That the overall mystery was kinda only sprinkled through...that actually suffered a little because it kinda feels out of place, or shoehorned in...and though I wanted more of that, I know it wasn't what this episode was about...

That the theme of the season is legacy, I can see that the bottle episode legacy being used...

And also, Shaw is kinda growing on me...and I don't know why exactly, but his Quint speech this episode was pretty solid. A whole other perspective of someone surviving Wolf 359 that's just different from Sisko, where that was an aspect of the character that springboarded Sisko at the start, while for Shaw it's a total through line of the character.

Obviously I am still on board more than some of you.

[RumHam]

The speech was really good, well delivered, and I liked that Picard had to just fuck off in response. That said I wish we weren't calling it that. 

For starters Quint's mission was secret, his captain didn't steer them into battle. But mostly because Quint and his comrades suffered at the hands of nature after it was relevant. Nor during a battle. 

As effective as it was "we lost and had to make hard choices about who would live" is not a "USS Indianapolis" level story.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

24 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Interesting to do nearly a full on bottle episode when you only have ten episodes...but it wasn't horrible. It might not rank in the top half of the seasons episodes when all is said and done, but it was solid.

That the overall mystery was kinda only sprinkled through...that actually suffered a little because it kinda feels out of place, or shoehorned in...and though I wanted more of that, I know it wasn't what this episode was about...

That the theme of the season is legacy, I can see that the bottle episode legacy being used...

And also, Shaw is kinda growing on me...and I don't know why exactly, but his Quint speech this episode was pretty solid. A whole other perspective of someone surviving Wolf 359 that's just different from Sisko, where that was an aspect of the character that springboarded Sisko at the start, while for Shaw it's a total through line of the character.

Obviously I am still on board more than some of you.

I acknowledge that Shaw’s speech was well done.  However… it felt like it came out of left field.

[Durckad]

6 hours ago, Caligula_K3 said:

It's finally going to happen. I'm going to watch TNG.

But I'm not a masochist, and I need a good watch-list so I can avoid the crap and the horrible. Encounter at Farpoint already almost put me into a coma, and I know that's considered to be one of the best season 1 episodes.

Does anyone have any recommendations for a watch-list? I remember a few years ago, after I finished DS9, I floated the idea of watching TNG and a user posted what seemed like a good one. Unfortunately, it seems that thread has been deleted from the board.

If Encounter At Farpoint almost put you to sleep, well, then I'd suggest skipping Season 1 entirely. It's not the best, but it is one of the better episodes. Not much in Season 1 beyond that episode is all that essential so you wouldn't miss much. Still, here's my recommendations. Anything bolded are pretty essential episodes in that they're either extremely well-regarded or important for some long-running plot points.

Season 1:

Encounter At Farpoint, Parts 1 and 2

Datalore (Not a great episode, but it is probably the most important in season 1 aside from Farpoint in that it does have some payoff later in the series. If you don't mind missing out on some slight references/connections, skip it.)

Heart of Glory (Introduces the Klingons to TNG and I have a soft spot for Klingon episodes. Actually pretty decent overall)

Conspiracy (My favorite from Season 1, if only because of how gory and insane it gets near the end. Questionably "good" but can be skipped without issue)

Season 2: (Season 2 is a huge step up from 1, that said, there's a lot of dross in the season and even some of the episodes I picked are only here because they do pay off a bit later in the series)

Elementary, Dear Data (Another okay episode but it does have a follow up later on in Ship in a Bottle)

A Matter of Honor (Another Klingon episode. Only slightly better than Heart of Glory, but I'm including it here as the Klingons do play a pretty big part in some of the best episodes of early TNG)

The Measure of a Man (The first absolute classic on the list. I suggest at least watching a few other episodes first before watching this as it's very Data-centric and the strength of the episode might be lost if this is your first exposure)

Contagion

Q Who

The Emissary

Peak Performance

Season 3: (Honestly, Season 3 is incredibly solid, probably the best overall season of TNG. You could probably safely watch the entire season, if you wanted. I think there're only 1 or 2 episodes that are straight up bad)

Who Watches The Watchers

Booby Trap (Honestly, one of my favorite episodes of the series, but not as overall well-regarded as the other episode so I'm including it but not bolding it)

The Enemy

The Defector

Deja Q

Yesterday's Enterprise

The Offspring

Sins of the Father

Captain's Holiday (Kinda of a meh episode overall, but it does introduce a character that returns later on AND briefly in DS9. You won't miss much by skipping it, but it's really not bad)

Hollow Pursuit

The Most Toys (Another one of my personal favorites, but like "Booby Trap," not as well regarded as the other "classics". Still a fantastic Data episode)

Sarek

The Best of Both Worlds, Part 1

Season 4: 

The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2

Family

Brothers (Worth watching especially if you didn't skip "Datalore". Even if you skipped that, it's still worth watching)

Reunion

Data's Day

The Wounded

First Contact

Qpid (A silly and stupid followup to "Captain's Holiday." Harmless fun, but not that essential if you're looking to prune episodes off the list)

The Drumhead

The Mind's Eye

Redemption, Part 1

Season 5: (Another great season that, while not as good as Season 3, is still TNG at its peak. Unfortunately, the two-parter that ends the season is one of my least favorites. Not the best way to end a great season, unfortunately)

Redemption, Part 2

Darmok

Ensign Ro (Important primarily for introducing Ro Laren, the Bajorans, and fleshing out the Cardassians)

Disaster

Unification, Part 1 and 2 (Not the best two parter, but it's pretty good overall. You won't miss much by skipping it)

Conundrum

The Outcast (I know some think the politics of this episode have aged poorly, but personally, I do think it is quite forward-thinking for it's time and, honestly, even today in some respects. Woke Star Trek before woke was a thing.)

Cause and Effect

I, Borg

The Next Phase

The Inner Light

Season 6: (Not as great as Season 5, Season 6 has a lot of what I think of as personal favorites, ie episodes that aren't great but I highly enjoy)

Relics

Schisms

Chain of Command, Part 1 and 2

Ship in a Bottle (A followup to "Elementary, Dear Data". Worth watching if you didn't skip that one)

Face of the Enemy (An actually decent Troi-centric episode. I would recommend not skipping it, if only for the novelty, but it is legitimately good)

Tapestry

Starship Mine (Essentially Die Hard in Space. Dumb, action-filled fun that I quite enjoy)

The Chase

Frame of Mind

Timescape

Descent, Part 1 (Parts 1 and 2 are worth watching only because they follow up "Datalore," "Brothers", and "I Borg" but on its own, not the best two-parter and has an overall negative reputation amongst fans. I personally don't mind it that much, but my tolerance for dumb TNG is quite high, so this can be skipped without much issue)

Season 7:

Descent, Part 2

Gambit, Part 1 and 2 (Kind of a silly and dumb two-parter, but eh, I enjoy it)

Parallels

The Pegasus (One of the better Season 7 episodes. Even though it's not essential, I would recommend watching it.)

Lower Decks (Another particularly strong episode in a season short of them. Again, not essential, but very enjoyable)

Thine Own Self

Genesis (This episode is bafflingly dumb, but I enjoy it because it does kinda succeed at being a dumb horror move in Star Trek. YMMV though, I know plenty who hate this episode. You won't miss much if you do skip it)

Journey's End (Not a great episode, but it does directly set up the Maquis in DS9 and is a bit of a swan song for one recurring character so kinda worth watching I guess?) 

Preemptive Strike (A better episode than Journey's End and one that also directly ties in to the Maquis in DS9, which also sets up Voyager. Also, yet another final appearance for a recurring character)

All Good Things...

[Durckad]

33 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Obviously I am still on board more than some of you.

I am, strangely enough, on board as well. For now at least. I was pretty adamant that I was going to pass up on watching Season 3 after the dumpster fire of Season 2, but so, far? I'm entertained and pleased. It's not perfect, but it's far, far better than the prior seasons.

Even this episode, which I seemingly liked more than most other people here. If this is the "worst" episode of this season, then I think I'll be happy. The biggest question will be whether the story devolves into nonsense or remains coherent and competent. That'll be the real test.