Star Trek: There! Are! 4! shows!

[sifth]

I liked the first episode of Picard season 3, well enough. I mean the bar was set extremely low by season 2, so I know that doesn't say much. It was just nice seeing Picard act like his normal self again and not like Patrick Stewart.

[sifth]

10 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Why can't they make good Trek anymore?  It's not that complex a formula and in this age of prestige TV...ugh.  I almost started watching Picard yesterday but I know I will only be disappointed.

Watch season 3 of the Oville and Strange New Worlds. They're both more inline with the Trek we know and love.

[DaveSumm]

20 hours ago, Rippounet said:

It's kinda weird that the show with a reunion of the cast of TNG is possibly the one that feels the most unlike TNG.

Indeed. They must have hired the guy in charge of boobs on Game of Thrones to make sure we never went more than 4 minutes without a shot of the Ent-D, packing it to the brim with member berries to make an episode … nothing like TNG. 

Nothing in this episode as awful as some of the earlier seasons, but there’s plenty of time. Still the same old complaints really, why does everything need to be so dark and bleak? Riker’s not getting along with his family. Crusher apparently is being hunted. Starfleet can’t be trusted. Seven is miserable. (Speaking of dark; I enjoyed Red Letter Media’s theory that Beverley was trying to do some regular medical research, but the lighting was so bad she accidentally cloned Jack Crusher instead and that’s the kid).

Hated, hated the Titan captain. Speaking to anyone the way he does, let alone a respected Admiral and a Captain, should rule you out for the job of Captain. And why does he feel this way? This feels like the weird misconception of Kirk as a rogue when he really wasn’t in TOS, he just stole a ship in the movies. TNG was competence porn, they didn’t seek out explosions and danger and rule bending like he makes out. They were PROS. It was the fucking flagship, Picard treated situations very carefully and diplomatically. I can’t recall a single thing in TNG as sloppy as 1) insulting Admirals upon immediately meeting them 2) insulting their wine 3) insulting their music taste 4) rejecting an order with a simple ‘no’ 5) giving them quarters below their station 6) not noticing that your damn ship just dropped out of warp, turned around and went back to warp again.

OK, so maybe he mistrusts ex-Borg, the theory goes? Well thank goodness he didn’t hire any of them to any senior positions recently!

[Werthead]

23 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

OK, so maybe he mistrusts ex-Borg, the theory goes? Well thank goodness he didn’t hire any of them to any senior positions recently!

If it turns out that Shaw is just being a dickhead for no reason, then I think those complaints have validity. But if this is a setup to him being revealed to have been taken over by parasites/is an enemy agent/shapeshifter, etc fair enough. It just wasn't done very well.

However that last point is pretty irrelevant. Starfleet assigns crew postings. In various circumstances, sure, the captain can ask for specific officer or whatever or try to turn somebody down, but they don't always have that choice and if Starfleet tells them this is who is available, like it or lump it, they'd have no choice but to take them and make it work.

I saw a comment on Reddit by a CG artist and he proposed the theory that the dark lighting might because of the transparent holo displays that everyone has to be using all the time for some reason. Bright lighting makes animating them harder and it really makes flipping the images difficult (they take the image they've CGIed onto the flat screens and invert it to appear on the "back" of the screen, so it looks transparent).

This could be completely avoided by them just using normal screens like sane people. We could easily have transparent displays now, people just don't like them and find them hugely distracting.

[DaveSumm]

8 minutes ago, Werthead said:

However that last point is pretty irrelevant. Starfleet assigns crew postings. In various circumstances, sure, the captain can ask for specific officer or whatever or try to turn somebody down, but they don't always have that choice and if Starfleet tells them this is who is available, like it or lump it, they'd have no choice but to take them and make it work.

The most obvious reference point to me is TNG Episode 1, where Picard very carefully and deliberately chooses Riker based on his record and attributes. Certainly you have Jellico type circumstances where there’s a forced requirement, but I don’t see what would be different about the Titan and the Enterprise for a regular long term posting. Surely if a Captain had a specific grievance, it would automatically make it a poor choice given that your Captain and Commander dislike one another. Would Starfleet have forced Sisko on Picard? It just obviously wouldn’t have been a fruitful relationship.

But whatever happens, I can’t see how it wasn’t poor writing. They attempted to demonstrate a by-the-book Captain by using completely un-by-the-book behaviour, against two people who were very much by-the-book. If he’s a spy, he’s doing a bad job of emulating a Captain.

Can’t you just picture this scene in a TNG episode; the niceties and pleasantries being adhered to, creating a tension as Picard tries to not overplay his hand as he knows a retired Admiral’s authority is unclear, while Shaw tries to thread the needle of being respectful, but ultimately declining? Two experienced and professional Captains, used to getting their way?

[Werthead]

8 minutes ago, DaveSumm said:

The most obvious reference point to me is TNG Episode 1, where Picard very carefully and deliberately chooses Riker based on his record and attributes. Certainly you have Jellico type circumstances where there’s a forced requirement, but I don’t see what would be different about the Titan and the Enterprise for a regular long term posting. Surely if a Captain had a specific grievance, it would automatically make it a poor choice given that your Captain and Commander dislike one another. Would Starfleet have forced Sisko on Picard? It just obviously wouldn’t have been a fruitful relationship.

Picard was captain of the Federation flagship, he likely had considerably greater latitude in crew selections. Also, whilst Riker was seen as a very promising officer on the way up, there were a ton of others in the same category and more coming up behind him (i.e. Shelby).

It would be interesting to see more of the thought processes involved here. Seven's record from the Voyager mission is mostly exemplary but she does have form for disobeying orders and doing her own thing, which most captains will be unhappy with. There might also be resentment at taking on a 55-ish XO rather than a younger, more hotshot officer they can mould.

The personality clash thing is a good point, and if they'd confirmed what Shaw's involvement with the Constance is, that might explain his antipathy towards the Borg better. If the captain has unresolved issues from the Borg, giving him an ex-Borg XO is clearly a daft idea (for all that she left the collective almost 30 years ago at this point and was critical in repeatedly defeating and nearly destroying the Borg).

If the idea was to put Seven in Starfleet, there's also a reasonable question why she wasn't assigned to Admiral Janeway's staff or assigned to the Borg desk at Starfleet Intelligence or something along those lines.

[RumHam]

15 hours ago, Denvek said:

I'd assume they'd just carry on with the explanation from Enterprise, and just have the Discovery Klingons be a different strain of the Augment virus to the TOS Klingons.

I don't think this really works. At the start of Discovery isn't it a big deal that the Klingon guy has gathered all of the Klingon houses? and they all look and act like that. 

I hope they just forget about that and go back to TNG era klingons for Discovery also. Have they shown any since they arrived in the future? 

[Jaxom 1974]

One has the impression that they're going to do anything and everything to forget Discovery tried to change the Klingons...

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

23 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

One has the impression that they're going to do anything and everything to forget Discovery tried to change the Klingons...

Is there any explanation from the creators as to why they wanted to remodel the Klingons so drastically… when the existing model worked?

[Cas Stark]

28 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

One has the impression that they're going to do anything and everything to forget Discovery tried to change the Klingons...

Everyone should forget that nonsense.

[Lord Varys]

Discovery itself kind of forgot or tried to forget they changed the Klingons when they suddenly had hair in season 2 and behaved more like Klingons would.

Don't think there is a possible explanation to Asshole Captain aside from severe mental problems on his part. A spy, impostor, or parasite-controlled guy wouldn't behave in this silly manner. Such a person would try to stay under the radar, to not appear as if he wasn't himself.

Also agree that the whole dark and gritty feeling sucks - as do private problems. Especially the whole 'ex-Borg' discrimination thing - Sisko's personal issues with Picard to make sense. He was part of the Borg attack that killed his wife. But Ex-Borg regaining their former personality and identity are a great thing - cause for joy for all non-Borg who don't want to be Borg as well as the family and friends of those individuals.

That plotline already sucked back in season 1. Especially in connection with Seven who effectively was the shining example that a Borg drone assimilated as a child could regain her personality - or rather form a new one.

And to reiterate it: How lazy is the writing there to make the plot moving by way of cutting off a very famous guy and his equally famous buddy from all the resources they should have. Charter a ship? Somebody with Picard's and Will's background should either own a ship, know people who do, or know how to get one in a less silly manner.

Considering how much time has passed it might have made much more sense to have some children of the old guard actually captain their own ships now. Why the hell is Geordi's daughter an Ensign in the 25th century when she could have easily enough been born in the late 2360s? Or they could have brought back Harry Kim as a captain who most definitely should have been on the fast track for promotions after Janeway treated him like a child for seven years.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Discovery itself kind of forgot or tried to forget they changed the Klingons when they suddenly had hair in season 2 and behaved more like Klingons would.

Don't think there is a possible explanation to Asshole Captain aside from severe mental problems on his part. A spy, impostor, or parasite-controlled guy wouldn't behave in this silly manner. Such a person would try to stay under the radar, to not appear as if he wasn't himself.

Also agree that the whole dark and gritty feeling sucks - as do private problems. Especially the whole 'ex-Borg' discrimination thing - Sisko's personal issues with Picard to make sense. He was part of the Borg attack that killed his wife. But Ex-Borg regaining their former personality and identity are a great thing - cause for joy for all non-Borg who don't want to be Borg as well as the family and friends of those individuals.

That plotline already sucked back in season 1. Especially in connection with Seven who effectively was the shining example that a Borg drone assimilated as a child could regain her personality - or rather form a new one.

And to reiterate it: How lazy is the writing there to make the plot moving by way of cutting off a very famous guy and his equally famous buddy from all the resources they should have. Charter a ship? Somebody with Picard's and Will's background should either own a ship, know people who do, or know how to get one in a less silly manner.

Considering how much time has passed it might have made much more sense to have some children of the old guard actually captain their own ships now. Why the hell is Geordi's daughter an Ensign in the 25th century when she could have easily enough been born in the late 2360s? Or they could have brought back Harry Kim as a captain who most definitely should have been on the fast track for promotions after Janeway treated him like a child for seven years.

Additionally Crusher’s message says 

Spoiler

No Starfleet.  Why seek to commandeer a Starfleet vessel when Picard has this warning?

 

[sifth]

47 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is there any explanation from the creators as to why they wanted to remodel the Klingons so drastically… when the existing model worked?

Because they never watched Trek and just assumed they were evil and felt an evil race of aliens should look more scary. Just my guess though.

[RumHam]

55 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Is there any explanation from the creators as to why they wanted to remodel the Klingons so drastically… when the existing model worked?

I saw speculation that the Ash/Klingon twist just wouldn't work with the old makeup. I mean it didn't really work with the new make up, people figured it out immediately. But it would have been even clearer that it was the same actor. That might have nothing to do with it though. 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, RumHam said:

I saw speculation that the Ash/Klingon twist just wouldn't work with the old makeup. I mean it didn't really work with the new make up, people figured it out immediately. But it would have been even clearer that it was the same actor. That might have nothing to do with it though. 

That twist still doesn't make sense to me. Altering a Klingons looks is one thing, but Ash had human DNA. Since when do Klingons have the ability to turn one of their own into a human, on a cellular level. Heck when has anyone in Trek ever had that level of technology.

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Additionally Crusher’s message says 

  Hide contents

No Starfleet.  Why seek to commandeer a Starfleet vessel when Picard has this warning?

 

Because they wanted the plot of Asshead Captain on the new Titan.

15 hours ago, RumHam said:

I saw speculation that the Ash/Klingon twist just wouldn't work with the old makeup. I mean it didn't really work with the new make up, people figured it out immediately. But it would have been even clearer that it was the same actor. That might have nothing to do with it though. 

I remember having heard that Bryan Fuller wanted that look. Not sure if that's accurate.

[RumHam]

Another bit of speculation about the Klingon change, I remember people wondering if the old makeup was too close to "blackface." Again no idea if that was a factor, it's all speculation. Since they changed the design twice before (if you count the Abrhams movie) they probably don't need a very good reason, it's just a thing Star Trek does for some reason. 

I caved and signed up for Paramount+. 

Spoiler

The main question I had after the episode ended was "how the hell is hologram Moriarity going to fit into this?" Could he be behind the terrorist attack? (awesome visuals there btw.) 

I'm incredibly skeptical of Crushers kid. Maybe just cause the last one was Wesley. Or maybe because Picard had a "son" before who turned out not to be, and a clone who turned out to be evil.  But also, in the teaser Beverly is fighting alone, the only other non-invader on the ship seems to be locked up screaming to be released. 

Is Raffi Section 31? Or does Starfleet have a non-sketchy intelligence branch? She didn't have the black badge but maybe by this point in time Boimler 2 has convinced them what a stupid idea that was. I could see Moriarty rising to head of section 31 maybe. 

 

[Werthead]

47 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Another bit of speculation about the Klingon change, I remember people wondering if the old makeup was too close to "blackface." Again no idea if that was a factor, it's all speculation. Since they changed the design twice before (if you count the Abrhams movie) they probably don't need a very good reason, it's just a thing Star Trek does for some reason. 

I caved and signed up for Paramount+. 

  Hide contents

The main question I had after the episode ended was "how the hell is hologram Moriarity going to fit into this?" Could he be behind the terrorist attack? (awesome visuals there btw.) 

I'm incredibly skeptical of Crushers kid. Maybe just cause the last one was Wesley. Or maybe because Picard had a "son" before who turned out not to be, and a clone who turned out to be evil.  But also, in the teaser Beverly is fighting alone, the only other non-invader on the ship seems to be locked up screaming to be released. 

Is Raffi Section 31? Or does Starfleet have a non-sketchy intelligence branch? She didn't have the black badge but maybe by this point in time Boimler 2 has convinced them what a stupid idea that was. I could see Moriarty rising to head of section 31 maybe. 

 

Spoiler

According to some of the people who saw the previews, Moriarty has maybe one scene, and only appears in one episode out of the first six. He might appear again later on, but the feeling it was a one-off appearance as part of the TNG reunion tour.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, RumHam said:

Another bit of speculation about the Klingon change, I remember people wondering if the old makeup was too close to "blackface." Again no idea if that was a factor, it's all speculation. Since they changed the design twice before (if you count the Abrhams movie) they probably don't need a very good reason, it's just a thing Star Trek does for some reason. 

I caved and signed up for Paramount+. 

  Reveal hidden contents

The main question I had after the episode ended was "how the hell is hologram Moriarity going to fit into this?" Could he be behind the terrorist attack? (awesome visuals there btw.) 

I'm incredibly skeptical of Crushers kid. Maybe just cause the last one was Wesley. Or maybe because Picard had a "son" before who turned out not to be, and a clone who turned out to be evil.  But also, in the teaser Beverly is fighting alone, the only other non-invader on the ship seems to be locked up screaming to be released. 

Is Raffi Section 31? Or does Starfleet have a non-sketchy intelligence branch? She didn't have the black badge but maybe by this point in time Boimler 2 has convinced them what a stupid idea that was. I could see Moriarty rising to head of section 31 maybe. 

 

A possible 'blackface' problem with the Klingon design from TNG I don't really see - especially if they got around that by casting black actors for the Klingons - if the Klingons are supposed to be 'black'. I never saw them like that, and while they do have brownish makeup in season 3 of TOS it always seemed they are more stand-ins for the Soviets or some 'Asian Empire' than black people.

Discovery could have deepened the fact that Klingons have different phenotypes and skin colors but I think that was already kind of clear from TNG, DS9 and VOY. But if you have aliens just go with them having completely different skin colors or other 'alien' aspects than mimicking the human situation (that's part of the reason why I'd say that black Vulcans weren't a great idea although black actors certainly should have played Vulcans - but then with a make-up that reflected the fact that they have that green blood (which is why Nimoy had that greenish make-up in TOS in addition to the pointy ears).

By the way - just rewatched 'Plato's Stepchildren' and really enjoyed Shatner's 'we are all equal on Earth these days'. In light of the grittiness and darkness of the new Trek shows it strikes me that Roddenberry was actually right when he wanted that the TNG crew get along, have no personal problems, etc. The writers certainly could come up with new conflicts, new and interesting ways how people face (structural) problems they have to overcome - DS9 did this pretty well with the conflict between the solids and the changelings - but commenting on real issues with 'anti-robot laws' or 'anti-immigration' stuff just doesn't fly. Xenophobia and outright fear could grab the Federation if the Borg were to actually join their ranks - as the Jurati fraction now really tries to do - but anti-ex-Borg sentiments really feels like something that has no place in this society.

Spoiler

I never thought Moriarty would be the big bad - is it not more likely that Lore is going to be that?

Also - is there any indication that the speculation about the parasite aliens from TNG season 1 making an appearance here has any merit?

[RumHam]

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A possible 'blackface' problem with the Klingon design from TNG I don't really see...

Oh I agree. But they removed an episode of Community from streaming because a character playing Dungeons and Dragons as a dark elf painted himself the color black. So I could see people worrying about putting white actors in any kinda brown make up. 

I forgot about 

Spoiler

Lore.