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What’s up with Borroq and his boar?


Evolett

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We see much of Borroq and his fearsome boar in Jon’s last couple of chapters and there is speculation on what his role will be. He is a skinchanger, much feared by the free folk and he recognizes Jon as a fellow warg (Borroq calls Jon “brother” and he’s not referring to Jon’s status as a brother of the NW but because one skinchanger can sense another “brother”). He is the last of the wildlings to cross the Wall and he comes across as menacing:

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“Brother,” Borroq said. “You’d best go on. We are about to close the gate.” “You do that,” Borroq said. “You close it good and tight. They’re coming, crow.” He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them.

Jon’s direwolf Ghost does not seem to like him at all. We should know by now that something is amiss when the direwolves are openly hostile towards certain people. Tormund isn’t fond of him either.

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“Borroq.” Tormund turned his head and spat. “A skinchanger.” It was not a question. Somehow he knew. Ghost turned his head. The falling snow had masked the boar’s scent, but now the white wolf had the smell. He padded out in front of Jon, his teeth bared in a silent snarl.

 

So what’s up with Borroq?

The most logical thing that comes to mind is that Borroq will attempt taking over Jon’s direwolf Ghost. Why? In Varamyr’s prologue chapter, we learn a thing or two about skinchanging, also that one skinchanger can usurp the familiar animal of another, making it his own. Varamyr took Greyskin away from his mentor Haggon:

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The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man.

Further, Varamyr regrets not taking Ghost from Jon:

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He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

And we know he took Orell’s eagle after Orell was killed by Jon Snow.

 

A second life in an animal as fine as Ghost would be a second life worthy of a king.  I suspect Borroq shares this sentiment and covets the direwolf for his own. He will also be aware that Jon is untaught. As far as we know, Jon is bonded to Ghost but has never consciously warged the wolf. In death, Jon might reach for Ghost but might find himself embroiled in a spiritual battle for his direwolf, a battle he might lose. Borroq has installed himself in an ancient tomb near the lichyard, an interesting choice of abode:

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Until such time, Borroq had taken up residence in one of the ancient tombs beside the castle lichyard. The company of men long dead seemed to suit him better than that of the living, and his boar seemed happy rooting amongst the graves, well away from other animals. “That thing is the size of a bull, with tusks as long as swords. Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting.”

Borroq encourages Jon to close the gate when he smiles his ugly smile: You close it good and tight. He gives a warning as well: They’re coming, crow. I have the sneaky feeling the skinchanger knows something the rest of us can only guess at, that the Others are coming and will breach the Wall. Like Varamyr, he does not expect to survive, has prepared himself for death in the tomb and is waiting for a chance to rip Ghost from Jon for his second life. Varamyr’s experience shows the warg does not have to be near his wolves for spirit-transfer to occur. Ghost is locked up and Jon is dead or dying. Perhaps the perfect scenario for Borroq. 

The chapter before Jon’s stabbing is “The Dragontamer” where Quentyn tries to take one of Dany’s dragons and fails. I see this scenario repeating itself with Jon, Borroq and Ghost.

The question is, will Borroq succeed? If so, will Jon end up in the boar? Or some other alternative – Mormont’s raven, Patchface (also a possibility given the fool is retarded  and probably relatively easy to skinchange. Also, what does this mean in terms of Jon’s resurrection?

 

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46 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Borroq encourages Jon to close the gate when he smiles his ugly smile: You close it good and tight. He gives a warning as well: They’re coming, crow.

First Borroq calls Jon "Brother!" and Jon, who apparently doesn't like Borroq, curtly retorts "“You’d best go on. We are about to close the gate.”  Borroq's gives a cynical reply to Jon as stated above, which I have to think implies "Close the gates, sure, but your danger is coming for you on the inside."

In the wiki he's described as a skinchanger and not a warg, as wargs are the ones who enter the minds of wolves.  I don't think he wants Ghost.  He won't warg Ghost and, as I don't believe Jon is dead, mayhaps he will give Jon some training on skinchanging, since really, he hasn't any.

edt: while I don't know why Tormund doesn't like Borroq, perhaps it's because he is a skinchanger.  Tormund told Jon when they first met: 

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"That sounds more like me," said Tormund. "Well met, Jon Snow. I am fond o' wargs, as it happens, though not o' Starks."

 

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Well, you know my theory about Borroq. I think he's a symbolic or reborn Robb Stark. Your logic is good about the familiar "brother" as the recognition of a fellow skinchanger, but I think it's also a hint about Robb coming to Castle Black. 

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"Yes, Your Grace." Ned offered Robert the paper. The king scrawled his signature blindly, leaving a smear of blood across the letter. "The seal should be witnessed."

"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped. "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

"I promise." Promise me, Ned, Lyanna's voice echoed.

(AGoT, Eddard XIII)

We have seen Robert and Eddard as "brothers" because they bonded when they were fostered by Jon Arryn. The boar / Robb wordplay applies to Robert and to Robb, I think. And Robb and Jon Snow make another pair of brothers who are not really brothers. 

I suspect these brothers are another of GRRM's pairs of opposites that cycle around each other - shaggy and sharp, bitter and sweet, ice and fire, etc. This would fit to some extent with the Gendel and Gorne story, the Cleganes at the Hand's Tourney, and some of the Targaryen conflicts.

So I wonder whether the boar symbolizes the "non-Robb" brother who fights one-on-one with Robert or Robb and alternates being on top? The mother direwolf dies with an antler stabbed in her throat. Varys tells Ned that it was Ned's "mercy" (in allowing Cersei to remain free after her children were exposed as abominations) that killed Robert. The literal cause of Robert's death, however, was a wild boar. But Robert then commands that the boar be served at his funeral feast and says he doesn't care if Ned chokes on him. There are both Jon Snow and Joffrey references hidden in that command as Robert refers to a bastard (both Jon and Joff) and to choking (Joff for sure), and then Ned thinks of Lyanna (probably Jon's mom). The remark about the "skin" of the boar may refer to a skin changer. 

On the other hand, the boar and Robert die at roughly the same time. Maybe the boar and the "Rob" are two versions of the same being, like Borroq and his boar.

As an alternative, there may be evidence that "bear" and "boar" are opposites. Jon Snow's mentor at The Wall is a bear (Mormont) but the bear is killed and the boar soon arrives.

Chett's plot may be linked to this cycle, too: he is planning a bear hunt to kill Mormont. He cancels his plans because he thinks his footsteps can be tracked in the fresh falling snow. He decides to try to kill Sam Tarly anyway, but fails, causes the ravens to be set free, is wighted and later is attacked and defeated by a flock of ravens. So the (Night's Watch) brother-against-brother plot with crows and/or ravens also playing the part of brother slayers. 

Edit: I meant to note that GRRM specifically describes falling snow covering the footprints of Borroq and his boar as they enter the Night's Watch headquarters area. This seems to highlight that Chett was foolish for thinking that the falling snow ruined his assassination plot (falling snow covers tracks; it does not make them easier to follow) or that Borroq is the opposite of Chett. If he is an opposite, does that mean that he will be an ally to Jon Snow, or does it mean that he will succeed in an assassination plot where Chett failed? 

It's possible that Borroq will tutor Jon Snow in skinchanging at the last moment. I could embrace that theory, borrowing some of the good evidence you presented in the OP. Or maybe his intentions are more sinister. 

I lean more towards Borroq as a healer. In the case of Jon Snow, maybe healing does take the form of skinchanging or warging. We see Moqorro heal Victarion, Qyburn heal Jaime and (you could make a case) Robert Strong, and Qhorin doesn't exactly heal Jon Snow but he does something with horse blood and oats to strengthen him as he goes undercover with the wildlings. So the characters with "Q" in their names seem to be magical healers or shamans. (Hmm. Not sure whether Quaithe fits the healing pattern.)

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"Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof."

Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. But if it pleases Lord Walder to serve me stewed crow smothered in maggots, I'll eat it and ask for a second bowl."

(ASoS, Catelyn VI)

This might be a reference to Jon Snow who is a "steward crow" as a member of the Night's Watch. We see him killed by his brothers. Here, Robb seems willing to eat him. ("Maggots" could be an allusion to the Game of Thrones: mag = gam = game and got = Game of Thrones. Or the maggots might just imply rebirth. In this case, the kind of rebirth that follows the ingestion of rancid meat.) 

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A possible symbolic role for the boar that relates to your Beric / Borroq connection. Acknowledging the relationship between pigs and boars is necessary for the theory to work.

At his wedding feast, Joffrey asked Tyrion to be his champion by riding the pig. Tyrion refuses and Joffrey soon dies. Later, Tyrion does ride the pig - in combat with a dog (hound). 

In a way, Ser Beric serves as a champion for the butcher's boy, Mycah. Arya has accused The Hound of killing Mycah and Ser Beric engages him in a Trial by Combat to determine whether he is guilty. As we know, Ser Beric dies so The Hound is found not guilty but Beric rises again with the help of Thoros. 

Mycah was compared to a pig after his death: 

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They'd let the queen kill Lady, that was horrible enough, but then the Hound found Mycah. Jeyne Poole had told Arya that he'd cut him up in so many pieces that they'd given him back to the butcher in a bag, and at first the poor man had thought it was a pig they'd slaughtered. And no one had raised a voice or drawn a blade or anything, not Harwin who always talked so bold, or Alyn who was going to be a knight, or Jory who was captain of the guard. Not even her father.

(AGoT, Arya II)

Maybe Borroq represents Robb and Ser Beric, but the boar represents Mycah? And Pretty Pig? So there seems to be a cycle of pigs vs. hounds. Maybe that explains why Jon Snow's direwolf does not like Borroq's boar. 

But your good point about the Beric/Borroq wordplay might tell us that Borroq will, indeed, serve as a "champion" who may help Jon Snow. 

Why would pig or boar symbolism be linked to the idea of being a champion? Are truffles considered to be a kind of mushroom? People use pigs to hunt truffles, right? And the wordplay on the French "champignon" might link to "champion" in English.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Seams said:

A possible symbolic role for the boar that relates to your Beric / Borroq connection. Acknowledging the relationship between pigs and boars is necessary for the theory to work.

As we have both pigs and boars, so too we have dogs and wolves. The domesticated (or civilized) variety and the wild.

I think there is a clear pig/king symbolism as opposites in society (but still similarly human), where pigs represent the lowest of the low in society and kings, obviously kings.

The mummer's boy with the big ears was a born liar with a hundred different voices, and he did not tell his tales so much as live them, playing all the parts as needed, a king one moment and a swineherd the next.

And yet even a king can die to a pig/boar. It's practically Hobbesian.

The king closed his eyes and seemed to relax. "Killed by a pig," he muttered. "Ought to laugh, but it hurts too much."

In retrospect Robert has a penchant for prophesy.

"Seven hells!" Robert swore. "Do I have to do it myself? Piss on the both of you. Pick it up. Don't just stand there gaping, Lancel, pick it up!" The lad jumped, and the king noticed his company. "Look at these oafs, Ned. My wife insisted I take these two to squire for me, and they're worse than useless. Can't even put a man's armor on him properly. Squires, they say. I say they're swineherds dressed up in silk."

Come winter, kings and swineherds (pigs) alike freeze.

There came a night that lasted a generation, and kings shivered and died in their castles even as the swineherds in their hovels.

For whether it be at the hands of Others, Dragons, or Kingslayers, all men must die

Beneath the empty eyes of the skulls on the walls, Jaime hauled the last dragonking bodily off the steps, squealing like a pig and smelling like a privy. A single slash across his throat was all it took to end it. So easy, he remembered thinking. A king should die harder than this.

But it is not just true of death, and where we begin does not always determine where we will end.

As kings can die to pigs, pig chasers can rise to be kingmakers.

If Roger had not died that day, the old man would never have looked twice at Dunk when he saw him chasing that pig through the alleys of King's Landing. Some old dead king gave a sword to one son instead of another, that was the start of it.

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59 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

As we have both pigs and boars, so too we have dogs and wolves. The domesticated (or civilized) variety and the wild.

I think there is a clear pig/king symbolism as opposites in society (but still similarly human), where pigs represent the lowest of the low in society and kings, obviously kings.

Thanks for these insights and quotes and for bringing the swineherds into focus. 

Lannisters have an association with symbolic pigs and swineherds. House Crakehall of the brindled boar is a bannerman and Jamie spent four years squiring for Lord Sumner Crakehall. Robert's two "swineherd" squires are Lannisters, Jamie kills Aerys who squeals like a pig. At the Purple Wedding, Joff wants Tyrion to ride the pig. Later on the Selaesori Qhoran he does ride the pig (he falls off, he is supposed  to fall off), and again while performing for Daenerys in the dragon pit. Here he wears painted Lannister armor and ends up chasing Pretty Pig:

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One rode a hound, the other a sow. Their wooden armor had been freshly painted, so one bore the stag of the usurper Robert Baratheon, the other the golden lion of House Lannister. That was for her sake, plainly. Their antics soon had Belwas snorting laughter, though Dany’s smile was faint and forced. When the dwarf in red tumbled from the saddle and began to chase his sow across the sands, whilst the dwarf on the dog galloped after him,...

  Dany prevents the lions from being loosed and Hizdahr calls for Barsena, a female fighter, who is up against a boar. Barsena and the boar fight sound like a direct parallel to King Robert versus his boar. Like Robert, she is gored by the boar and just then, Drogon arrives to feed on both. But before he feeds, Drogon bathes the boar in fire:

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He flapped them once as he swept back above the sands, and the sound was like a clap of thunder. The boar raised his head, snorting … and flame engulfed him, black fire shot with red. 

Which reminds me very much of Robert's dying wish:

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"Serve the boar at my funeral feast," Robert rasped. "Apple in its mouth, skin seared crisp. Eat the bastard. Don't care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned."

 

On 7/19/2022 at 6:13 AM, Seams said:

On the other hand, the boar and Robert die at roughly the same time. Maybe the boar and the "Rob" are two versions of the same being, like Borroq and his boar.

Perhaps, though when I read those two quotes, Lord Rickard comes to mind - cooking in his armor. I think the answer to Borroq's role is hidden within the antics of the jousting dwarfs. According to Penny, Tyrion who rides the pig is supposed to lose, it's a planned thing, rigged, which I think is important. The entire mummer's show of the jousting dwarfs is "rigged." Both Robert and Barsena lose to boars, which should not have happened but did, probably because the boars are wild with minds of their own and not trained pigs. This makes me suspect that the boar is part of a cycle that needs to be broken. If Lord Rickard and Robb are part of the pig/boar motif, we see them being eliminated and I tend to think (from another line of reasoning which this seems to feed into), that they or the Starks are sacrifices to stave off winter. To keep the summer going, prolong the season. This would explain the apple in Robert's boar's mouth. But winter must also have its due in the seasonal cycle. 

So, I still suspect Borroq's purpose is to take Ghost away from Jon, likely leaving him the boar as an alternative but that would be a bad idea and an option Jon must not take. Personally, I don't think Jon will need Ghost at all for a resurrection. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Evolett said:

If Lord Rickard and Robb are part of the pig/boar motif, we see them being eliminated and I tend to think (from another line of reasoning which this seems to feed into), that they or the Starks are sacrifices to stave off winter.

This does start to get at something I've been trying to understand. 

At the end of AGoT, when Mormont tells Jon Snow that he is not going to kill him for deserting but instead will send him on the Great Ranging beyond the Wall, he says he needs Jon Snow's "blood" and his wolf to go beyond the Wall. I always thought the wording was odd and intriguing. Much later, when Jon Snow is stabbed, it seems to me that his attackers want his blood to soak into the Wall - he is right up against it when they attack. So maybe the blood can be used in various ways, with sacrifice being an option. 

I've also seen that scene at the ruined inn, where Jon Snow refuses to kill the old man (who looks at him with silent appeal), as a symbolic killing of the direwolf Ghost (by Ygritte) but in the same vein as the killing of Aslan in the Narnia books. Of course, a resurrection follows and clueless Jon Snow says only, "Where have you been?" when Ghost shows up again. 

Are those scenes part of this cycle of sacrifices? Or, at least, foreshadowing about Jon Snow's death and resurrection? 

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"Why do you hesitate?" Styr said. "Kill him, and be done."

Even then the captive did not speak. "Mercy," he might have said, or "You have taken my horse, my coin, my food, let me keep my life," or "No, please, I have done you no harm." He might have said a thousand things, or wept, or called upon his gods. No words would save him now, though. Perhaps he knew that. So he held his tongue, and looked at Jon in accusation and appeal.

You must not balk, whatever is asked of you. Ride with them, eat with them, fight with them . . . But this old man had offered no resistance. He had been unlucky, that was all. Who he was, where he came from, where he meant to go on his sorry sway-backed horse . . . none of it mattered.

(Storm, Jon V)

I wonder whether "Styr" is an oblique allusion to a sty? Tyrion's "squire," Podrick Payne, has a sty on his eye. Styr's order to Jon Snow is almost like the wedding feast, though, where Joffrey tells Tyrion to ride the pig (be his champion) and Tyrion refuses.

The "appeal" could be wordplay on apple - like the one Robert wanted in the mouth of the boar to be served at his funeral. Maybe that helps to explain the symbolism of apples: they are the fruit eaten when someone is trying to be silent. Or when someone is making an appeal to someone else for help?

I'm brainstorming tangents, I realize. I like the insights about pigs/boars and wolves/dogs. 

Oh, the old man killed in the ruin by Ygritte might have a parallel in Brienne's quest to Crackclaw Point. In the ruins of The Whispers, she kills a guy named Pyg (along with Timeon and Shagwell). 

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I feel as if this wolf/dog and boar/pig discussion is leading to a breakthrough on animal symbolism in general. I have long suspected that understanding GRRM's use of colors often requires us to look at the way he pairs two colors in a sigil or in his description of something in the environment. I think pairs of animals and conflicts between animals may be another place to decipher hidden meaning. @Mourning Star's good catch on the domestic vs. wild distinction also helps to sort out the animal motif. 

GRRM gives us an obvious example of an animal conflict as Haldon quizzes Young Griff on Volantene history:

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By the time they turned to history, Young Griff was growing restive. "We were discussing the history of Volantis," Haldon said to him. "Can you tell Yollo the difference between a tiger and an elephant?"

"Volantis is the oldest of the Nine Free Cities, first daughter of Valyria," the lad replied, in a bored tone. "After the Doom it pleased the Volantenes to consider themselves the heirs of the Freehold and rightful rulers of the world, but they were divided as to how dominion might best be achieved. The Old Blood favored the sword, while the merchants and moneylenders advocated trade. As they contended for rule of the city, the factions became known as the tigers and elephants, respectively.

"The tigers held sway for almost a century after the Doom of Valyria. For a time they were successful. A Volantene fleet took Lys and a Volantene army captured Myr, and for two generations all three cities were ruled from within the Black Walls. That ended when the tigers tried to swallow Tyrosh. ... After a century of war, Volantis found herself broken, bankrupt, and depopulated. It was then that the elephants rose up. They have held sway ever since. Some years the tigers elect a triarch, and some years they do not, but never more than one, so the elephants have ruled the city for three hundred years."

ADwD, Tyrion IV

He did not know these Volantenes, yet it seemed to him that elephants and tigers might have good reason to make common cause when faced with dragons.

ADwD, Tyrion V

We have already seen domestic cats as an important presence in the Red Keep and in some symbolic allusions (catspaw, Catelyn, the Rains of Castamere song). Bronn is described as "cat-quick and cat-graceful" when he prepares to support Tyrion in a battle. Cats would be the tame version of lions, tigers and shadowcats, I would think. 

I am guessing that mammoths are the wild version of elephants. We know that giants sometimes ride mammoths and that the animals could not fit through the tunnel at Castle Black so they had to go over to Eastwatch to come around the Wall. Interesting that Borroq and his boar are the last wildlings through that gate. 

The Lamb Men and the Dothraki (strongly associated with horses) are traditional enemies.

Tommen takes in a fawn as a pet but Joffrey kills it and makes a doublet out of the skin. Margaery gives Tommen some pet kittens. 

When Theon returns to the mainland, one of his first acts is to kill Benfred Tallheart, who has organized a group calling itself the Wild Hares. Ghost, Jon Snow and Sam Tarly kill and eat Gilly's rabbits that she had intended as a breeding pair. 

I bet we can learn a lot more by looking at "animal conflicts" and wild vs. tame and how the author uses them to teach us about war and strife and interpersonal conflict.

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19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@SeamsEtymologically(in universe that is) Beric and Borroq likely come from the same word. Beric has lived multiple lives until giving up his life for Cat. Borroq as a skinchanger already has a second life. We may yet see him helping Jon beating death.

Outlandish theory, Borroq may willingly “host” Jon while he’s comatose. We’ve seen that skinchanging into humans is possible through Bran and Hodor but the host can and will resist as seen with Varamyr’s attempt. Borroq as a skinchanger is accustomed to this and may willingly invite Jon over.

In the “real world” Borroq may be inspired by a name in Arabic, Barraq, meaning “shining”.  

Which in turn may be a nod to one of GRRM’s many inspirations, Stephen King, who referred to his “skinchangers” as having “the shining”.

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23 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Borroq as a skinchanger already has a second life. We may yet see him helping Jon beating death.

I don't think it matters that Borroq already has a second life in the form of his boar. Varamyr originally had six "second lives" to choose from and still considered Ghost worthier to live that life in than those other six:

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Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt.

Varamyr's thinking even implies he asked Mance's permission and I think he would have. Mance was his king and had accepted Jon into the fold. Simply ripping the wolf from Jon like he did with Haggon would have been a no-go. Towards the end of his life, we also see Varamyr debating on which of his wolves to live his second life in and he ends up choosing One-Eye, the oldest but fiercest of his three. So there does seem  to be something about Ghost that makes him more attractive to the skinchanger than the other wolves or even the bear and shadowcat, both formidable in their own right. As far as Borroq knows, Mance is dead and no longer presents a restraining force and if Ghost is such an appealing subject for a second life, I can see him going for it. 

I also don't see him helping Jon, or teaching him anything about skinchanging at this late hour, at least not intentionally. Borroq has hardly been congenial towards Jon, despite recognising him as a fellow skinchanging "brother." And I trust in Ghost's judgement. The direwolves have never been wrong regarding those who are enemies to the Stark kids. 

If Borroq helps Jon, it will be unintentional. Taking Ghost away from Jon spiritually or preventing him from taking this option is probably necessary to Jon's resurrection  process. Varamyr's prologue tells us two things about the second life:

a) the need to choose which animal to live it in after death, because it can only be one, at least where wolves are concerned. Varamyr's internal debate on which wolf to live his second life in more than suggests that the choice is final - no more switching between the animals as he pleases. He thinks of the pros and cons of each animal before reaching a decision. I doubt he would have spent so much time thinking about it if the option of changing wolves were available after death. Leaving the wolf chosen for  the second life in spirit to inhabit any other animal or being is not possible.

b) that the wolf-man bond cannot be broken is also suggested by the account of Mel's attack on Orell's eagle which Varamyr was inhabiting. After Mel's fiery treatment, Varamyr is driven out of the eagle and loses both shadowcat and bear but keeps all three wolves, implying the wolf-bond is very potent and cannot be broken, not even by fire. As Haggon teaches Varamyr:

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“Wolves and women wed for life,” Haggon often said. “You take one, that’s a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”

The implication here is that if Jon wargs into his wolf in death, there will be no turing back, no return of the spirit to life. Wolf and man-spirit are forever bonded in life and in death. Proponents of the Ghost/Jon resurrection theory don't take this into account. If Borroq tries to steal Ghost from Jon, he'll be doing it to secure a second life "worthy of a king" and, he will be doing us all a favor as well, but he won't be doing it because because he wants to help Jon. 

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6 hours ago, Seams said:

I think pairs of animals and conflicts between animals may be another place to decipher hidden meaning. @Mourning Star's good catch on the domestic vs. wild distinction also helps to sort out the animal motif.

This extends to characters too. Sansa initially is the well trained daughter who according to the Hound is a little bird, repeating the words taught her. Arya is the wild counterpart who breaks the rules and does as she deems fit. 
Nettles and her wild dragon Sheepstealer contrast those trueborn Targs who bond with their domesticated dragons. It's probably important that Drogon defies being caught and goes "wild" as opposed to his siblings. 

Dogs and pigs don't gel or are pitted against each other as in the jousting dwarfs. Harma Dogshead of the wildlings is a "swineherd." She owns a herd of pigs but hates dogs, killing one every couple of weeks to use as a banner. Ghost does not like Borroq's boar. But Jon and Sam dubbed "Ser Piggy" by Alliser Thorne are good friends. 

 

17 hours ago, Seams said:

I've also seen that scene at the ruined inn, where Jon Snow refuses to kill the old man (who looks at him with silent appeal), as a symbolic killing of the direwolf Ghost (by Ygritte) but in the same vein as the killing of Aslan in the Narnia books.

 That scene appears to be a parallel to Bran's last weirwood vision - here too an old man has his throat cut by a woman, the bearded man in the vision who forces the captive to his knees is played by Styr (who is bald and clean shaven). Bran's vision takes place beneath a weirwood and here we have an apple tree within the inn. Jon treads on a rotten apple. Ygritte whose name alludes to Yggdrasil is the weirwood connection. The wildlings carry bronze weapons, the old man in the vision was killed with a bronze knife. Sacrifical symbolism at the inn is alluded to by the description of the old man's eyes which are like wells and which Jon feels he could drown in:

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The man kept staring at him, with eyes as big and black as wells. I will fall into those eyes and drown.

After slitting the old man's throat Ygritte throws the bloody blade at Jon's feet. Darkness falls and a storm begins to rage in ernest shortly after the old man is killed and Jon becomes the Magnar's target for refusing the order. That entire Jon POV with its reference to Bran's vision could be telling us something about the founding of Winterfell, a warm oasis in an otherwise cold environment:

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Such a small fire, to cost a man his life. He remembered what Qhorin Halfhand had said when they spied the fire in the Skirling Pass. Fire is life up here, he told them, but it can be death as well.

 And perhaps the killing of the old man under the weirwood represents the first of a series of sacrifices meant to appease the Others as a condition of ending the Long Night. The old man in Jon's POV dies under an apple tree which symbolizes fertility so Jon refusing to kill the man is like saying no to fertility. At the same time, in biblical terms, the apple is the forbidden fruit and Jon steps on a rotten apple, implying it's not right to sacrifice this man in the name of fertility. 

18 hours ago, Seams said:

Styr's order to Jon Snow is almost like the wedding feast, though, where Joffrey tells Tyrion to ride the pig (be his champion) and Tyrion refuses.

There  is pig/dog symbolism in that chapter as well. Jon has to overcome a Thenn to get hold of the old man's mount. The horse rears and it's hoof strikes the Thenn's temple with a "crunch." Penny's dog is named Crunch. Maybe the Thenns are symolical dogs. Jon gets hit by Ygritte's arrow and as he rides he thinks: "I'm bleeding like a butchered pig." Here Jon the "pig" overcomes the "dog" and escapes becoming a "sacrifice" himself. So unlike pig-riding Tyrion who has  to lose as part of the choreographed mummer's show, Jon does not lose this "tilt."

 

I was reading up on the meaning of an apple stuffed in the mouth of a cooked pig and boar. The tradition has its origin in Norse mythology where Sæhrímnir, a magical creature, usually a boar, was killed and eaten every night. After being eaten the boar was resurrected to serve as food again the next day. As such it was a symbol of renewal. The Norse gods also ate the golden apple to maintain eternal youth and saw the apple as a symbol of fertility. Apple and boar were eaten at midwinter festivals to foster fertility and renewal in the coming year.

This speaks to the pig's role (and it's rider's role) as the party that must lose because only by losing can the cycle be renewed. If the apple is "rotten" however or the outcome of the contest predetermined, then the cycle itself is flawed. The wild boar appears to represent a means to have a fair fight, or perhaps not because Robert is drunk does not have his wits about him and Barsena was not equipped with the right weapon. Could be both the pig and the boar are flawed. In Barsena vrs. the boar, the dragon ends up eating both. 

The account of the puppeteers who put on a show about greedy lions is definitly related to this:

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“One more thing. A trifling matter.” He gave her an apologetic smile and told her of a puppet show that had recently become popular amongst the city’s smallfolk; a puppet show wherein the kingdom of the beasts was ruled by a pride of haughty lions. “The puppet lions grow greedy and arrogant as this treasonous tale proceeds, until they begin to devour their own subjects. When the noble stag makes objection, the lions devour him as well, and roar that it is their right as the mightiest of beasts.” “And is that the end of it?” Cersei asked, amused. Looked at in the right light, it could be seen as a salutary lesson. “No, Your Grace. At the end a dragon hatches from an egg and devours all of the lions.”

 The Lannisters in the current story are associated with symbolic pigs (Crakehall and others listed in a previous post), dogs (Clegane brothers) and Robert as the stag. Dany thinks of the Starks in terms of the "usurper's dogs" which Ser Barristan protests. We are seeing that Starks may be symbolic pigs (in the dwarf jousting, the wolf-knight rides the pig). Tyrion and Penny were supposed to be devoured by lions but Dany forbade that part of the show. Instead, Drogon devours the symbolic stag and boar. So it appears the Lannisters control the flawed seasonal cycle and Dany's role is to eliminate some or all of these unsound elements. 

 

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On 7/18/2022 at 2:51 PM, Evolett said:

The chapter before Jon’s stabbing is “The Dragontamer” where Quentyn tries to take one of Dany’s dragons and fails. I see this scenario repeating itself with Jon, Borroq and Ghost.

The question is, will Borroq succeed? If so, will Jon end up in the boar? Or some other alternative – Mormont’s raven, Patchface (also a possibility given the fool is retarded  and probably relatively easy to skinchange. Also, what does this mean in terms of Jon’s resurrection?

 

So far, every book has had a character who made a brief appearance only to show up later in a major role; think, Gendry, Beric, Qyburn . . .

So maybe we'll see more of Borroq. 

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I've also been trying to work out the many-layered Rorge/Biter symbolism. It occurred to me recently that a little scrambling of letters could give us Borre / Tiger. I realize that "borre" is not a word (in English, anyway) but it's close enough to "boar" and "Robb" that it could be a clue for us and part of the "paired animals" set of clues. 

I think that "Ygritte" represents a "Ttyiger" so her conflict with the direwolf Ghost might be similar to her conflict with boars, if the "Rorge/Biter" symbolism is a guide for us. Or does the working relationship between Rorge and Biter tell us that Ygritte might have had a good rapport with Robb Stark or with Borroq?

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

The horse rears and it's hoof strikes the Thenn's temple with a "crunch." Penny's dog is named Crunch.

Thanks for bringing up the "crunch" on the man's head. I had been thinking that "crunch" might be associated with biting something, and that it would be part of the Rorge / Biter symbolism. 

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"What were the maester's words?" Jaime asked.

The bacon crunched when he bit into it. Tyrion chewed thoughtfully for a moment and said, "He thinks that if the boy were going to die, he would have done so already. It has been four days with no change."

AGoT, Tyrion I

The search website tells me there are many types of crunches in the books.

In addition to the conflicting animal pairs and the wild vs. domestic animal symbolism, I think "silent" vs. "roaring" is also part of the animal motif. We see a silent direwolf but we are told that Aerys squealed like a pig when he realized Jaime was going to kill him. We know that the Lannisters once had a sword called Brightroar (also part of the Rorge/Biter anagram wordplay, I believe). The "little birds" who work for Varys are silent because their tongues have been cut out but Littlefinger jokes that opening a pie would cause the birds to sing and Varys wouldn't like that. 

I think it was @GloubieBoulga who first mentioned that she thought Rorge and Biter represented Ned and Robert. I didn't get what she meant at all and just decided we would have to agree to disagree. But now I think I see what she was getting at. It has to do with the two animals in conflict and one wins for awhile and the other wins later. It's so interesting that Robert and Ned were brought together under Jon Arryn. So what is his role? Is that like Jaqen H'ghar's relationship to Rorge and Biter? I'm also wondering whether there is anagram wordplay involving "Arryn" and "rainy". As in the death of the harvest king, maybe rain is needed to cycle from one king to the next. It would also create a parallel between Jon Rainy and Jon Snow.

On 7/20/2022 at 7:56 PM, Evolett said:

According to Penny, Tyrion who rides the pig is supposed to lose, it's a planned thing, rigged, which I think is important. The entire mummer's show of the jousting dwarfs is "rigged."

My strong impression of the dwarf jousting is that it's never clear who wins or loses. GRRM tells us that the riders seem to switch mounts during the performance; one guy who appears to be beheaded is actually fine. Tyrion tells us that the mummer shields have been painted and repainted many times with layers and layers of sigils under each new coat of paint. I know that Tyrion is supposed to fall, but does it really say he is supposed to lose? Does it play out the same way every time?

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On 7/18/2022 at 2:51 PM, Evolett said:

We see much of Borroq and his fearsome boar in Jon’s last couple of chapters and there is speculation on what his role will be. He is a skinchanger, much feared by the free folk and he recognizes Jon as a fellow warg (Borroq calls Jon “brother” and he’s not referring to Jon’s status as a brother of the NW but because one skinchanger can sense another “brother”). He is the last of the wildlings to cross the Wall and he comes across as menacing:

Jon’s direwolf Ghost does not seem to like him at all. We should know by now that something is amiss when the direwolves are openly hostile towards certain people. Tormund isn’t fond of him either.

 

So what’s up with Borroq?

The most logical thing that comes to mind is that Borroq will attempt taking over Jon’s direwolf Ghost. Why? In Varamyr’s prologue chapter, we learn a thing or two about skinchanging, also that one skinchanger can usurp the familiar animal of another, making it his own. Varamyr took Greyskin away from his mentor Haggon:

Further, Varamyr regrets not taking Ghost from Jon:

And we know he took Orell’s eagle after Orell was killed by Jon Snow.

 

A second life in an animal as fine as Ghost would be a second life worthy of a king.  I suspect Borroq shares this sentiment and covets the direwolf for his own. He will also be aware that Jon is untaught. As far as we know, Jon is bonded to Ghost but has never consciously warged the wolf. In death, Jon might reach for Ghost but might find himself embroiled in a spiritual battle for his direwolf, a battle he might lose. Borroq has installed himself in an ancient tomb near the lichyard, an interesting choice of abode:

Borroq encourages Jon to close the gate when he smiles his ugly smile: You close it good and tight. He gives a warning as well: They’re coming, crow. I have the sneaky feeling the skinchanger knows something the rest of us can only guess at, that the Others are coming and will breach the Wall. Like Varamyr, he does not expect to survive, has prepared himself for death in the tomb and is waiting for a chance to rip Ghost from Jon for his second life. Varamyr’s experience shows the warg does not have to be near his wolves for spirit-transfer to occur. Ghost is locked up and Jon is dead or dying. Perhaps the perfect scenario for Borroq. 

The chapter before Jon’s stabbing is “The Dragontamer” where Quentyn tries to take one of Dany’s dragons and fails. I see this scenario repeating itself with Jon, Borroq and Ghost.

The question is, will Borroq succeed? If so, will Jon end up in the boar? Or some other alternative – Mormont’s raven, Patchface (also a possibility given the fool is retarded  and probably relatively easy to skinchange. Also, what does this mean in terms of Jon’s resurrection?

 

Quentin is not the parallel to Borroq. Euron is. Borroq could try to do to Ghost the same thing. Euron wants to take over a dragon or two. Borroq the warg will make the same attempt. Both will regret trying. Ghost will become Jon Snow’s body after the latter dies from his injuries. 

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A few quotes from  Prologue chapter, ADWD

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"Haggon's rough voice echoed in his head. "You will die a dozen deaths, boy, and every one will hurt … but when your true death comes, you will live again. The second life is simpler and sweeter, they say."

"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death. "When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."

None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man. 

 The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."

 

 

What I'm, trying to get at is this, the prologue was not just a bio of Varamyr and a primer about the wargs 2nd life, but also a rundown of a warg's training and their powers.  Varamyr says "The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it."  Doubtful that Jon Snow has ever heard of a wargs 2nd life, he fights against his warg nature, and he is untrained so there is a whole lot about being a warg that Jon doesn't know.  

Also, Varamy brags that "None of them had been as strong as Varamyr Sixskins, though, not even Haggon, tall and grim with his hands as hard as stone. The hunter died weeping after Varamyr took Greyskin from him, driving him out to claim the beast for his own. No second life for you, old man."

Jon barely knows how to warg Ghost for his own self, and most likely can't conceive that he could be attached while warging Ghost like Haggon was attacked and died after Varamyr pushed him out of the wolf Greyskin.

So, we have, Jon, a novice warg with no training, who has been stabbed and we don't know if he is dead or alive.  Will he warg into Ghost, will Borroq warg into Ghost?  If Borroq wargs into Ghost and finds Jon there, then what?  Push him out?  We've been shown it can happen, or something else?

If Jon doesn't/can't warg into Ghost, or gets pushed out by Borroq, seems like he would be in a bigger world of hurt than he is already. Even if he could warg into Ghost, would the wolf let anyone else near him?  Warging into Ghost could bring out may unknown issues, not just a 2nd life.  Would Borroq be a helper or threat to Jon, or just watch the show?

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5 hours ago, Seams said:

My strong impression of the dwarf jousting is that it's never clear who wins or loses. GRRM tells us that the riders seem to switch mounts during the performance; one guy who appears to be beheaded is actually fine. Tyrion tells us that the mummer shields have been painted and repainted many times with layers and layers of sigils under each new coat of paint. I know that Tyrion is supposed to fall, but does it really say he is supposed to lose? Does it play out the same way every time?

Let’s leave out the pigs and dogs for a moment and try a different perspective. Later in the narrative, we learn that the wolf-knight and stag-knight represented Robb and Stannis respectively. From Stannis’s point of view Robb was an opponent, a rival who threatened to split the realm of which he aimed to be king. Stannis never warred against Robb but he would have, had the circumstances been different. Mel pronounced her curse against Robb. One can also argue that Stannis has taken Robb’s place in the North. It should have been Robb and his bannermen aiding the NW against the king-beyond-the-Wall and the fight against the Others but Stannis has taken this upon himself. Lastly, Stannis is trying to recover Robb’s own seat with some of Robb’s bannermen. Stannis is akin to a semi king in the North; there is no actual battle between Robb and Stannis but from this perspective, Stannis, the stag, has won every “tilt.”

I feel the dwarf joust reflects this. During their introduction to the king, the wolf-knight loses his shield, then the stag-knight loses control of his lance and knocks the wolf-knight off his mount. Even though the wolf-knight manages to behead the stag-knight, the latter “returns to life” – we can think Renly here. In the end the stag-knight leaps onto the wolf-knight and proceeds to simulate sex, which to me symbolizes the ultimate defeat. In summary, the wolf-knight who rides the pig loses each round, no matter what happens in between.

When the dwarfs are tangled, Stannis rides the pig and holds the direwolf shield while Robb rides the dog holding the stag shield, both facing the wrong way, backwards. This may represent an exchange of “jobs” or responsibilities. Stannis holding Robb’s shield implies he is carrying out Robb’s duties as a shield against threats from beyond the Wall as indeed Stannis does. And perhaps Robb carries out a duty that was meant for Stannis – shoring up support immediately and battling against the false king sitting the Iron Throne or even much earlier informing Robert about his suspicions regarding Cersei’s illegitimate children. Instead, he took himself off to Dragonstone leaving Ned (another wolf-knight) to deal with John Arryn’s death and everything else. When Stannis belatedly gets round to confronting the Lannisters, he loses – he “rides the pig.”

Penny later informs us that the pig is supposed to lose. At the dragon pit, Tyrion in Lannister colors rides the sow, falls off and proceeds to chase it, pursued by Penny as the stag on the dog. Presumably, this is what Joff would have liked to see, especially if those who ride the pig invariably lose and possibly die.  

If the logic of the jousting dwarfs riding pigs and losing can be applied to skinchanging boars, then Borroq has every reason to choose the winning dog/wolf over the boar. We see the stag-knight riding the dog granted a “second life.” Perhaps a second life is not possible in a boar. Perhaps this is something particular to wolves.  

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Penny later informs us that the pig is supposed to lose.

I'm looking for this citation. Can you tell me which chapter it's in?

I was able to find where Tyrion says he is supposed to fall off the pig, and I can find where Penny says that the goal is to make people laugh, but I can't find anything about a plan for the pig and its rider to lose in the mummer jousting.

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In the ADWD prologue, "When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well."  

Bran III ADWD  "Do all the birds have singers in them?"  "All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven …"

It seems that a 2nd life is possible in other animals.  

 

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