House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

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There is something in the premiere episode of HOTD that would be considered high ASOIAF heresy were it not the active involvement and blessing of GRRM. 

Interesting, I wonder what that could be.

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Interesting, I wonder what that could be.

Spoiler

Aegon knew about the White Walkers and thus conquered Westeros to unite it.

 

[Lord Varys]

If it is this thing, then it is most definitely not 'heresy' but not that unlikely true in the books as well, although a kind of secret knowledge folks have yet to actually discuss in the books. Even more so since it might actually be 'lost knowledge' in the books due to the Dance and the subsequent boy king.

The idea that

Spoiler

Aegon and his sister-wives just conquered Westeros on a whim or because of great political ambitions never was very convincing. Although huge, the continent was a bunch of savage backwater kingdoms. The Free Cities or Essos in general would have been a much sweeter prize for the only remaining dragonlord dynasty.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

58 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Aegon knew about the White Walkers and thus conquered Westeros to unite it.

 

Right, wasn't this leaked a while back? I don't mind this idea per se, but given how badly it all was handled on GoT, it feels anticlimactic in the end.

[The Wondering Wolf]

GRRM spoke about the idea before F&B was released, but I don't see a single convincing hint in the books. Even if the knowledge had been lost during the Dance, we would only know about one king visiting the Wall, and that's not even the Conqueror. All of them knew and no-one cared doesn't sound like a good story in my opinion. GRRM can always work in hints in future books, but so far I don't see it.

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

15 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

GRRM spoke about the idea before F&B was released, but I don't see a single convincing hint in the books. Even if the knowledge had been lost during the Dance, we would only know about one king visiting the Wall, and that's not even the Conqueror. All of them knew and no-one cared doesn't sound like a good story in my opinion. GRRM can always work in hints in future books, but so far I don't see it.

If GRRM goes with this idea in the books, then it seems likely that this ancient lost knowledge is what young Rhaegar rediscovered somehow in his books one day and pushed him to emulate Aegon the Conqueror ("I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." + Three heads of the dragon stuff).

[C.T. Phipps]

I mean, the idea Aegon needs any reason to conquer Westeros other than the fact he's a warlord and can is absolutely silly, IMHO, and undermines the kind of realism that the books strive for. I fully believe Aegon did it because the insult he was delivered and the harming of a messenger.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The way they are writing Rhaenyra - as a daughter who really tries to be the son her father wanted and who expresses her desire for power in a more masculine way - indicates they will definitely drop the whole fat-shaming thing. Rhaenyra clearly is not fat(ter) after her first three pregnancies, nor at the beginning of the Dance.

In turn, this might also indicate she couldn't care less about 'the Strong allegations'. The scene in where she and Alicent get physical in the wake of the Aemond incident seems to indicate that Alicent actually tried to personally cut out Luke's eye.

The chance that Rhaenyra later on bothers much with the Strong nonsense is pretty small. At best, I think, we can expect her to laugh at such allegations, pointing out that she is the blood of the dragon and does what she wants.

In turn, that would make it exceedingly unlikely that Rhaenyra is going to go with the Brothel Queen nonsense. George's character had issues with being accused of adultery. She may have even only married Daemon as soon as she did because she was already pregnant at the time. She also clearly had issues with losing her beauty and no longer being desirable for her husband. There is an insecurity and a vulnerability there which I don't expect to see in Emma D'Arcy portrayal to the same degree.

I actually agree with everything up until the Brothel Queen bit because I see exactly her personality as WHY she should do it. Part of what makes Rhaenyra such an awesome character is the absolute line in the sand she draws about disrespect. She is someone who is the rightful Queen of Westeros and refuses to be treated as a subordinate by anyone. I think part of what I see our difference here is you see it as a ridiculous action.

I see it in the sense of Daenerys horrific punishments of people who keep spitting on her mercy.

Alicent kept referring to her children as bastards despite being warned and even said that their deaths didn't matter compared top hers.

So Rhaenyra inflicts the most horrifying and terrible punishment she can think of. It's following in her father's example too.

"Don't ever mention this again or I will cut out your tongues."

*mentions it again*

"Seriously, what the f*** did you think was going to happen?"

Also, the fact it leads to Haelana's suicide is an important plot point.

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

GRRM spoke about the idea before F&B was released, but I don't see a single convincing hint in the books. Even if the knowledge had been lost during the Dance, we would only know about one king visiting the Wall, and that's not even the Conqueror. All of them knew and no-one cared doesn't sound like a good story in my opinion. GRRM can always work in hints in future books, but so far I don't see it.

We know pretty much nothing about Aegon's reign aside from a few anecdotes and basic dates and stuff. And strangely enough, FaB even omits Jaehaerys' visit to the Wall. During his first visit to Winterfell he apparently didn't go there, so either folks are mistaken about his visit ... or he went there at a later time. But this kind of thing isn't what Gyldayn is interested in.

The Conqueror apparently only made three progresses to the North ... but this doesn't mean he never visited the Wall.

And I'm not sure you have to believe in (the mission of) the NW to buy into the story about the Others. If the Targaryens thought they had defeat the ice demons or whatever, then they would have thought this was their destiny, not the job of some decadent warrior order. A unified Westeros under the leadership of a couple of dragonlords should make short work out of those ice demons.

That said - the reason why I think this could make sense is that so far George has carefully avoided connecting the dots between the promised prince prophecy stuff and the Others. But this has to happen for the people who (also) think they are this guy to try to fulfill their prophesied role.

Now, you can easily think where this historical knowledge might be used to great effect - when Archmaester Marwyn tries to convince Daenerys to go to Westeros. If he tells why Aegon went to Westeros in the first place, it could very much help to convince her that she has to go there now.

It also could have considerable effect on both Aegon or Jon Snow. A big issue with Jon at this point is that he understands the situation they are in pretty well ... but he doesn't view himself as crucial or even particularly important in the coming struggle. Learning the truth about his parentage is going to shake him to the core ... but also knowing what his job, what his family was looking for, could help focus on the right things under those circumstances, rather than being absorbed by the burdens that are going to come with the revelation that he is Rhaegar's son.

19 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

If GRRM goes with this idea in the books, then it seems likely that this ancient lost knowledge is what young Rhaegar rediscovered somehow in his books one day and pushed him to emulate Aegon the Conqueror ("I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." + Three heads of the dragon stuff).

I'd rather assume that Aerys I rediscovered the original promised prince prophecy (which Aerys II and Rhaella also gave Rhaegar to read when he was a child), but the subsequent kings may have not connected it to the Others nor to the personal prophetic insights of the Conqueror.

Aegon V and Jaehaerys II seemed to be more concerned with the promised prince's role in relation to a return of the dragons than what it meant for mankind on a larger scale. And Rhaegar also wasn't particularly concerned with the Wall or the NW.

However, while we don't really know what the kings and their heirs talked about behind closed doors it is really impossible to know what they may have known or suspected.

There are lots and lots of reasons why they may have thought to not discuss such things with larger group ... and even if they did that occasionally there are also lots and lots of reasons why those people may not have put it down to paper or why Citadel historians may have ignored such sources.

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, the idea Aegon needs any reason to conquer Westeros other than the fact he's a warlord and can is absolutely silly, IMHO, and undermines the kind of realism that the books strive for. I fully believe Aegon did it because the insult he was delivered and the harming of a messenger.

In context it is actually quite weird why a guy from an island stronghold develops the notion to conquer and unify an entire foreign continent full of foreign people, setting himself up as a barbaric feudal king.

Aegon should have looked east, not west. That is where his people and his culture were. Not in Westeros.

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually agree with everything up until the Brothel Queen bit because I see exactly her personality as WHY she should do it. Part of what makes Rhaenyra such an awesome character is the absolute line in the sand she draws about disrespect. She is someone who is the rightful Queen of Westeros and refuses to be treated as a subordinate by anyone. I think part of what I see our difference here is you see it as a ridiculous action.

I see it in the sense of Daenerys horrific punishments of people who keep spitting on her mercy.

Alicent kept referring to her children as bastards despite being warned and even said that their deaths didn't matter compared top hers.

So Rhaenyra inflicts the most horrifying and terrible punishment she can think of. It's following in her father's example too.

"Don't ever mention this again or I will cut out your tongues."

*mentions it again*

"Seriously, what the f*** did you think was going to happen?"

Also, the fact it leads to Haelana's suicide is an important plot point.

Alicent and Rhaenyra's relationship will also be completely different in the show. In the book they are friendly at first ... but never close friends who grew up together which apparently is going to be the take in the show.

Rhaenyra only spares Alicent's life because she was her stepmother and her father loved her once ... whereas for show Rhaenyra Alicent will always also remain the friend she had in her childhood and youth.

No chance that this kind of thing will even come up in the show.

Helaena's suicide - if they go with a suicide there - doesn't need the Brothel Queen stuff for a buildup. Blood and Cheese and Maelor's death are more than enough. Hell, her being depressed is all that is needed there.

Although I imagine that Helaena is also going to be a completely revamped, reimagined character in the show. In the book she barely exists as a character. There would be little reason to even include her in the show if all she did was what she does in the book. She needs a larger role.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

49 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

GRRM spoke about the idea before F&B was released, but I don't see a single convincing hint in the books.

But the fact that GRRM has talked about it has more weight, IMO.

[The Wondering Wolf]

7 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

If GRRM goes with this idea in the books, then it seems likely that this ancient lost knowledge is what young Rhaegar rediscovered somehow in his books one day and pushed him to emulate Aegon the Conqueror ("I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior." + Three heads of the dragon stuff).

It makes total sense that Rhaegar was influenced by prophecies, just as other Targaryens like Aerys I were. I wouldn't even mind a prophecy that influenced Aegon to conquer Westeros. Looking at the text, I just don't see the explicit connection to the Others so far.

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We know pretty much nothing about Aegon's reign aside from a few anecdotes and basic dates and stuff. And strangely enough, FaB even omits Jaehaerys' visit to the Wall.

Sure, but it's up to GRRM to present this knowledge to his readers (at least if he does not want this revelation to come out of nowhere). So if the Targaryen kings know about this huge threat from the north, have them show up there from time to time and care about the Wall (if Aegon had thought he could deal with it on his own, he wouldn't have needed to conquer Westeros in the first place), not ignore this part of Westeros for most of the time.

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But the fact that GRRM has talked about it has more weight, IMO.

GRRM didn't confirm it, he just brought it up. But if he stated this was the case, then I would have to accept it, without further hints in future books it would be cheap writing in my opinion, though.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

In context it is actually quite weird why a guy from an island stronghold develops the notion to conquer and unify an entire foreign continent full of foreign people, setting himself up as a barbaric feudal king.

Aegon should have looked east, not west. That is where his people and his culture were. Not in Westeros.

I mean, his family has been on Dragonstone for a LONG time. They may be keeping to themselves but Westeros is right next door and it's not like they wouldn't be familiar.

And Essos has a lot of Valyrian influences but the culture they came-from, came-from is gone.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was something that Daenys the Dreamer saw in a vision, like the Doom of Valyria, and then the Targaryens passed it down from generation to generation, or something to that effect.

But within the context of HotD, I feel that a reveal like that would completely take the focus away from the main story, at least for some hardcore fans.

[The Bard of Banefort]

We’ll probably learn about Aegon’s vision through Bran and Bloodraven, or at some point in DnE. Aerys and Bloodraven both love magic and prophecies, and Egg spends a lot of time reading and doing research. 
 

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I actually agree with everything up until the Brothel Queen bit because I see exactly her personality as WHY she should do it. Part of what makes Rhaenyra such an awesome character is the absolute line in the sand she draws about disrespect. She is someone who is the rightful Queen of Westeros and refuses to be treated as a subordinate by anyone. I think part of what I see our difference here is you see it as a ridiculous action.

I see it in the sense of Daenerys horrific punishments of people who keep spitting on her mercy.

Alicent kept referring to her children as bastards despite being warned and even said that their deaths didn't matter compared top hers.

So Rhaenyra inflicts the most horrifying and terrible punishment she can think of. It's following in her father's example too.

"Don't ever mention this again or I will cut out your tongues."

*mentions it again*

"Seriously, what the f*** did you think was going to happen?"

Also, the fact it leads to Haelana's suicide is an important plot point.

But why even spare Alicent up until this point then? If Rhaenyra was that bloodthirsty, she would have put Alicent’s head on a spike next to Otto’s. And there’s no reason to believe she would have pimped out Helaena.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Based on the little we’ve gotten from the LA premiere (and it isn’t much), it sounds like:

- The first episode focuses mainly on Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Alicent

- Rhaenyra is not whitewashed

- Tonally very serious (doesn’t sound like there’s much comedy)

- Lots of sex and gore 

- Plenty of references to both the books and GOT

- There are apparently more trailers to come. (It wouldn’t surprise me if they’re TV spots, since they probably won’t want to give too much away).

Obviously nobody who attends a movie premiere is going to say anything too negative (for reference: Star Wars), but it sounds like it’s a solid premiere.

I wonder why they’ve really dialed back on Mysaria? She was introduced as part of the main cast, but the last trailer didn’t even have her in it (I don’t count that one shot of her in the background on Dragonstone). I heard the actress may be filming a movie right now, which would explain why she wasn’t at SDCC or the premiere, but it’s still weird that she’s been dropped from a lot of the marketing.

[C.T. Phipps]

48 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But why even spare Alicent up until this point then? If Rhaenyra was that bloodthirsty, she would have put Alicent’s head on a spike next to Otto’s. And there’s no reason to believe she would have pimped out Helaena.

I mean, you don't do something this horrible to someone unless you want to be extra-extra cruel. In this case, Alicent isn't a threat because she has no claim to the Iron Throne but despite Rhaenyra promising to spare her life, Alicent just will not shut up about Rhaenyra's (murdered) children being bastards. Honestly, I fully believe that it won't even be portrayed as a wholly evil moment but framed as Alicent just being THAT stupid/cruel.

Rhaenyra will just snap and make the order.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on the little we’ve gotten from the LA premiere (and it isn’t much), it sounds like:

- The first episode focuses mainly on Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Alicent

No surprise there.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

- Rhaenyra is not whitewashed

Knowing the American audience, I expect that means she is going to have sex and she will enjoy it.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

- Lots of sex and gore 

I guess we'll see Daemon raping or 'deflowering' maidens ... and mutilating 'criminals'.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I wonder why they’ve really dialed back on Mysaria? She was introduced as part of the main cast, but the last trailer didn’t even have her in it (I don’t count that one shot of her in the background on Dragonstone). I heard the actress may be filming a movie right now, which would explain why she wasn’t at SDCC or the premiere, but it’s still weird that she’s been dropped from a lot of the marketing.

She was a featured cast member and I guess her role will be expanded a bit ... but she doesn't do much in the book nor can they enlarge her role without dropping or changing Daemon's other relationships. Wouldn't surprise me if she had a hand in some of the murders.

[C.T. Phipps]

Here's an interesting non-spoiler review.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Based on the little we’ve gotten from the LA premiere (and it isn’t much), it sounds like:

- The first episode focuses mainly on Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Alicent

- Rhaenyra is not whitewashed

- Tonally very serious (doesn’t sound like there’s much comedy)

- Lots of sex and gore 

- Plenty of references to both the books and GOT

Plus, several people have said that just based on the first episode, HotD is going to be better than GoT. I don't know if they mean the entirety of GoT or just the later seasons, though.

[Mystical]

58 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Plus, several people have said that just based on the first episode, HotD is going to be better than GoT.

And those people are idiots. The first episode is just that, the first episode. Plenty of shows have a crappy Premiere but the show finds itself over the course of the first Season. Just like plenty of shows have a stellar Premiere (especially shows that get pre-Premieres like this one) and then the quality for the rest of the Season dips. It also says nothing about the long term quality of the show.

If they are talking better in terms of production value, that's more like a 'duh' moment. It better be better than GoT considering the much bigger budget that this got compared to early Seasons GoT.