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5 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So... from what I have seen, people aren't very happy with this idea and are really questioning GRRM right now.

Yeah, Reddit is ablaze. I think it could work in the books, but it’s just kind of silly within the context of the show canon.

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12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Yeah, Reddit is ablaze. I think it could work in the books, but it’s just kind of silly within the context of the show canon.

The most common criticism is that it strips the Targaryens of their complexity/human flaws and makes them just saviors or puppets of prophecy. I can agree to an extent, but I think (or hope) that it's only because we don't have enough details about it yet.

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What I find interesting (I guess) in all this discussion is that it all started with GRRM himself. People have been speculating on Aegon's motives for years. The idea of him being a dragon dreamer and having a vision has been suggested before in the fandom but it never really stuck. Then in 2018 while promoting the release of Fire & Blood, GRRM nonchalently spoke about Aegon having a vision of the White Walkers and the idea gained traction from there. I'm guessing Condal was either aware of this and put it in the show by himself or GRRM asked him to. Either way, I now really doubt we won't see a version of this in the books too (via Bloodraven/Bran vision or Samwell Tarly/Glass candle would be my guess).
Regardless of the confusion surronding the subject, I'm happy dragons and Valyrian steel won't be the only magical elements in this show and the showrunners are not afraid to embrace the fantasy side of this world.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So... from what I have seen, people aren't very happy with this idea and are really questioning GRRM right now.

Far be it me to question Saint George but I don't see how it's any better a motive than naked ambition to rule a vast empire to replace one's lost ancestral one.

It also works better because it makes Aegon into Daenerys and Daenerys into Aegon.

"Our ancestors ruled a vast empire and perhaps while planning to regain the old one, I built a new one."

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48 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The most common criticism is that it strips the Targaryens of their complexity/human flaws and makes them just saviors or puppets of prophecy. I can agree to an extent, but I think (or hope) that it's only because we don't have enough details about it yet.

I think it could work in the books because it would mean Aegon tried to save the world only for his family to destroy itself. In the show it doesn’t work because the realm didn’t need to unite to defeat the WW. All they needed was for Arya to wander home before the attack started. Daenerys ended up—inadvertently—helping the WW by bringing them a dragon.

In retrospect, the most narratively satisfying way to defeat the Night King would have been for Jaime to have killed him while defending Bran. He was the only person convinced by the wight hunt to go north.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The most common criticism is that it strips the Targaryens of their complexity/human flaws and makes them just saviors or puppets of prophecy. I can agree to an extent, but I think (or hope) that it's only because we don't have enough details about it yet.

There has to be something like that in the background. I mean, in context, when you think about what the dragonlords of Valyria were, what Valyria was, then it is like, say, a Rockefeller heir around 1900 setting himself up as the ruler of Mongolia. Or a Roman senator thinking it was a great idea to rule the lands north of the Black Sea. Or Britain.

Culturally and politically all of Westeros is a savage backwater wilderness. And the Targaryens as such devolved to the level of feudal kings, converted to a primitive religion, and turned their sons into knights. I imagined Aenar's father would have been disgusted by the very idea that something like that might happen to his descendants.

That is unusual in any case. It could remain unexplained, just be a mad whim of Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters ... but it could also be something the author wants to explain.

And it is clear that prophecy directed the actions of certain Targaryens prior to (Daenys the Dreamer) and after (those who bought into the promised prince stuff) the Conquest.

It would thus not exactly be surprising if it turned out that prophecies and strange dreams also played into Aegon's decision to conquer Westeros. I mean, strange dreams also motivated the second Daemon Blackfyre and Daeron the Drunk to do silly things. Not to mention Dany's decisions in AGoT.

27 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

What I find interesting (I guess) in all this discussion is that it all started with GRRM himself. People have been speculating on Aegon's motives for years. The idea of him being a dragon dreamer and having a vision has been suggested before in the fandom but it never really stuck. Then in 2018 while promoting the release of Fire & Blood, GRRM nonchalently spoke about Aegon having a vision of the White Walkers and the idea gained traction from there. I'm guessing Condal was either aware of this and put it in the show by himself or GRRM asked him to. Either way, I now really doubt we won't see a version of this in the books too (via Bloodraven/Bran vision or Samwell Tarly/Glass candle would be my guess).
Regardless of the confusion surronding the subject, I'm happy dragons and Valyrian steel won't be the only magical elements in this show and the showrunners are not afraid to embrace the fantasy side of this world.

I think the biggest issue with that idea always was that the Targaryens didn't seem to care much about the NW and the Wall. This is also something that influences most takes on the later Targaryens and their concerns with the promised prince prophecy, right to Rhaegar and Aemon ... none of which really seemed to spearheard a movement to revive or strengthen the NW.

But it wouldn't be that hard for George undercut this whole issue by playing the destiny and exceptionalism card. If the Conqueror and his sisters thought they and their bloodline were destined to save the world they may have not been that keen to share this special knowledge with the larger world, not focusing on the decadent and declining warrior monks at the Wall but rather on the military potential of a united continent.

I mean, if Aegon I or Jaehaerys I or Viserys I and many a later king ruling through a reign of relative peace would have to face the Others they would have dealt with them pretty quickly, especially (but not only) because they had dragonriders at their disposal. The more important point would have been that they could have drawn on the resources of a unified Realm.

One could say that it may have been smarter to talk about this 'special destiny' and 'true mission of House Targaryen' more publicly, but it doesn't strike me as unrealistic that these people would have discussed such things only behind closed doors. We already know that they discussed the promised prince only in private. And there must be a connection between that prophecy and the threat posed by the Others. Whoever the savior or the saviors are ... they must know and understand what their destiny is to try and fulfill it. And so far nothing indicates that anyone being told they are the promised prince would then jump to the conclusion: 'Of course! That means I must fight the legendary ice demons! Everybody knows about that!' No, pretty much nobody seems to know about that.

Especially since most folks in Westeros didn't seem to believe in the Others anymore and magic in general was in decline since the Doom. Even for Aegon I and Jaehaerys I it may have been unwise to present themselves as kings whose ultimate guiding stars were strange dreams and ancient prophecies.

Even Stannis doesn't really put the religious and magical mumbo-jumbo at the heart of his political agenda.

And as I said above - this kind of thing could certainly help convince Daenerys to go to Westeros.

31 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

What if GRRM was planning this for years?

If this is a thing in the books then this whole thing should be as old as the introduction of the promised prince prophecy. We get that only in ACoK, but we also do have the Jon-Dany specialness hints in AGoT.

I guess the best take on this would be that Daenys didn't just dream about the Doom of Valyria ... but also about where the Targaryens were destined to go. I mean, why go to backwater Dragonstone and not a Free City or Qarth or Yi Ti or any other civilized place? And that Aegon looked west instead of east always felt weird ... as did his ridiculous take on warfare. I mean, okay, he had three very big dragons ... but to risk everything you have to conquer a gigantic continent? Realistically, this should have been war lasting decades, and one he should have lost considering that he declared war on all the Seven Kingdoms at once.

Only a madman would even try something like that. A more cautious man would have hidden his greed and ambition behind kind words, would have declared first war on the Stormlands to make common cause with the Vale or the Ironborn or Dorne against Argilac. And then, if things looked well, he would have tried to play some of the other kingdoms against each other, would have offered this king help to topple another, that sort of thing.

Real politicking. Not madness like 'There is only one king in Westeros now. I. Deal with it.' That's something only somebody would write who was under the impression that he knew what would happen, i.e. somebody who may have had a dream about himself conquering Westeros, a dream he deemed prophetic because he came from a family where prophetic dreams were actually a thing.

I'm less sure about George assuming that Viserys I cared much about prophetic dreams and stuff ... he could have included stuff about that in FaB if he felt like it. But Aegon I most likely did. And if his dreams and prophecy related to the Others then this would be a topic for the book series, not a history book.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Despite my distaste for GOT, I actually do buy merch that applies to the books too. Hot Topic is back to selling GOT tees again, at least online (they weren’t for a while), and I love the Funko Pops.

So which one are you interested in ? I'm surprised Syrax is the only dragon to have a Funko Pop (for now). Obviously they won't do all 17 dragons, but I though at least Caraxes would be available.
https://www.funko.com/search?filter:license=House_of_the_Dragon

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1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

What if GRRM was planning this for years?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is but I feel like it undermines the historical basis that I love so much about Targaryen history. Unless George has some insights that William the Conqueror was planning on stopping an invasion of Formorian giants.

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There has to be something like that in the background. I mean, in context, when you think about what the dragonlords of Valyria were, what Valyria was, then it is like, say, a Rockefeller heir around 1900 setting himself up as the ruler of Mongolia. Or a Roman senator thinking it was a great idea to rule the lands north of the Black Sea. Or Britain.

I mean, it's actually reminding me most of King Arthur's Roman interpretation in Prince Valiant. The Roman Empire has fallen so the local Romans decide to conquer the region and make their new Rome here. Valyria is GONE after all and they've already moved to the absolute furthest end of anywhere to get away from it (which is confirmed in Fire and Blood to be prophecy).

So it's like a Rockerfeller or Rothschild moving to Mongolia right before a volcano wipes out the USA.

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I guess the best take on this would be that Daenys didn't just dream about the Doom of Valyria ... but also about where the Targaryens were destined to go. I mean, why go to backwater Dragonstone and not a Free City or Qarth or Yi Ti or any other civilized place? And that Aegon looked west instead of east always felt weird ... as did his ridiculous take on warfare.

Fire and Blood make it clear they went as far West as they reasonably could go and not run into someone else's empire. They didn't go to those places because they were, themselves, affected by the Doom of Valyria. In Dragonstone, they were sitting pretty when the rest of the place all had to deal with the massive fallout from refugees, internal war, and so on.

In a very real way, they were doomsday preppers sitting in their bunker.

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Oh, for this interested about the prophecy leak stuff, I put together this collection of clips from GRRM, the cast at San Diego Comic-Con, and the Extended Full Trailer released at SDCC, plus the leak as I reported it a month ago edited in for 2 minutes at the end (all the other stuff lines up with it):

 

 

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I mean, okay, he had three very big dragons ... but to risk everything you have to conquer a gigantic continent? Realistically, this should have been war lasting decades, and one he should have lost considering that he declared war on all the Seven Kingdoms at once.

Well they did lose. They specifically lost to Dorne and failed to achieve their military objectives of a complete conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. However, let's not overstate their disadvantages. They had been planning this invasion for a long time by the fact they'd mapped the entirety of the continent and its political structures. They also knew how divided, disloyal, and defeatable they were.

Three dragons is like bringing three WW2 bombers into Medieval warfare. They are capable of almost completely nullifying the advantages of everyone else.

They also knew (correctly) that most of the knights would gladly join the winning side so their armies would almost certainly grow rather than deplete.

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Real politicking. Not madness like 'There is only one king in Westeros now. I. Deal with it.' That's something only somebody would write who was under the impression that he knew what would happen, i.e. somebody who may have had a dream about himself conquering Westeros, a dream he deemed prophetic because he came from a family where prophetic dreams were actually a thing.

I'll say it here.

I much prefer Aegon FREAKING THE FUCK OUT at the mutilation of his messenger and deciding to burn Westeros to the ground to Aegon's secret plan to save the world from White Walkers and the Targaryens doing absolutely nothing to the Wall or anything beyond it for centuries thereafter.

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I said it before in a deleted thread and I'll say it again here anyways, but this idea for Aegon is taken straight from the Kotor series (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic). 

In those games (a duology of sorts) Revan is a jedi who goes fights in the Mandalorian War against the wishes of the council and after winning returns from the outer rim as Darth Revan. Him and his fleet of republican loyalist went on to try and conquer the entire Galaxy. But then in the second game it is revealed that Revan found the 'true' sith in unknown space and returned to take over the republic so that he might prepare a unified galaxy for the real threat. 

Differences is Revan didn't get a chance in enact his plans. Aegon had the chance and yet did absolutely nothing. The only Targ to even go to the wall did so out of boredom. Total retcon. 

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3 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

So which one are you interested in ? I'm surprised Syrax is the only dragon to have a Funko Pop (for now). Obviously they won't do all 17 dragons, but I though at least Caraxes would be available.
https://www.funko.com/search?filter:license=House_of_the_Dragon

I like the Rhaenyra and Alicent ones. The Viserys one is cool too. Hopefully they’ll release more after the season ends.

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1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

I said it before in a deleted thread and I'll say it again here anyways, but this idea for Aegon is taken straight from the Kotor series (Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic). 

In those games (a duology of sorts) Revan is a jedi who goes fights in the Mandalorian War against the wishes of the council and after winning returns from the outer rim as Darth Revan. Him and his fleet of republican loyalist went on to try and conquer the entire Galaxy. But then in the second game it is revealed that Revan found the 'true' sith in unknown space and returned to take over the republic so that he might prepare a unified galaxy for the real threat. 

Differences is Revan didn't get a chance in enact his plans. Aegon had the chance and yet did absolutely nothing. The only Targ to even go to the wall did so out of boredom. Total retcon. 

They retconned Revan doing it to fight the Sith as one of Traya's fantasies about her student as well. It turned out, in fact, that Revan really was just an AGENT of the Sith Emperor and fully onboard team evil.

Which is a disappointing twist but I think works well with Star Wars themes.

In any case, Aegon's conquest being motivated by a desire to save humanity is disappointing to me BUT I will say that the fact it was SUCH AN EPIC screwing of the pooch that I'm okay with it.

Like Rhaegar Targaryen, he could not have fouled it up worse.

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I read that the episodes titles are:


 

Spoiler

1.1 The Heirs of the Dragon

 

1.2 The Rouge Prince

 

1.3 Second of His Name

 

1.4 King of the Narrow Sea

 

1.5 We Light the Way

 

1.6 Princess and the Queen

 

1.7 Driftmark

 

1.8 Lord of Tides

 

1.9 The Green Council

 

1.10 The Black Queen

 

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3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

So it's like a Rockerfeller or Rothschild moving to Mongolia right before a volcano wipes out the USA.

Well, more like Hawaii or the Philippines if you count them as a colony of the American Empire. Dragonstone was on the vicinity of the Valyrian empire, not outside it. And it was rather close to most of the powerful Valyrian colonies.

The obvious stratagem there would have been to conquer the so-called Free Cities and rebuild the Valyrian world. It shouldn't have been that hard for a determined dragonlord family. If Aegon could conquer Westeros then Aenar or Gaemon could have conquered the Free Cities.

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Fire and Blood make it clear they went as far West as they reasonably could go and not run into someone else's empire. They didn't go to those places because they were, themselves, affected by the Doom of Valyria. In Dragonstone, they were sitting pretty when the rest of the place all had to deal with the massive fallout from refugees, internal war, and so on.

They chose to stay out of most of the fighting (although one would assume that Gaemon Targaryen actually involved himself in the Century of Blood fighting, or else nobody would have called him Gaemon the Glorious ... you don't get that kind of moniker if you sit on your hands and do nothing) but they didn't do anything. They grew rich off the trade in the Narrow Sea they controlled.

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Well they did lose. They specifically lost to Dorne and failed to achieve their military objectives of a complete conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. However, let's not overstate their disadvantages. They had been planning this invasion for a long time by the fact they'd mapped the entirety of the continent and its political structures. They also knew how divided, disloyal, and defeatable they were.

Dorne is completely irrelevant and it seems Aegon did understand that in the end, making peace with Deria, etc. It would have been good to get them into the fold as well but those desert dwellers wouldn't cause much of a problem if he and his subjects had ever to deal with the Others.

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Three dragons is like bringing three WW2 bombers into Medieval warfare. They are capable of almost completely nullifying the advantages of everyone else.

We see how the Dornish fuck with them. Aegon was incredibly lucky that everything worked out so well for him. In the end, the deciding factor was exclusively the weakness of his most powerful enemies, their inability or unwillingness to continue the fight. Most especially the Lannisters, but, of course, also the Hightowers, the most powerful Reach lords, and, especially, the Starks.

And there one could see how the prophetic stuff could figure into everything. What did, in the end, convince Torrhen Stark to bend the knee? The size of the dragons? Aegon's semi-divine looks? His strong chin? Or rather what he and his sisters told Torrhen and his bastard brother about the prophecy and their dreams and what would, especially, the North would face in the future.

The Starks supposedly remember stuff. But even they cannot risk losing face with their bannermen. So Torrhen would just declare that he bends the knee rather than explain that he does so because he believes in the mythical Others and hopes that those foreign dragonlords are going to help him and his people should the Others ever come back.

But the idea that this kind of thing played a role there is hardly unlikely.

Especially considering that the North and the Targaryens never actually fought ... and the idea that Aegon could actually conquer and hold the North against the will of its lords and people is completely insane. That would never fly, and everybody must have known it. In the North a strategy as employed by the Yellow Toad would have worked even better. The land is vast ... and mostly empty.

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I much prefer Aegon FREAKING THE FUCK OUT at the mutilation of his messenger and deciding to burn Westeros to the ground to Aegon's secret plan to save the world from White Walkers and the Targaryens doing absolutely nothing to the Wall or anything beyond it for centuries thereafter.

Sorry, but Aegon the Conqueror wasn't the kind of guy who ever 'freaked out'. Everything we know about the man indicates he was stern and reserved guy who never let his emotions rule him. Even with the freak letter he didn't explode ... he just clutched until his hand started to bleed.

Aegon provoked Argilac intentionally to have a pretext for war. But even if this whole thing hadn't been arranged by him ... Argilac's reaction was no justification at all to declare war on all the Seven Kingdoms. And no sane man would have done that. People rarely think about that ... but Aegon only had three dragons and very few men.

He could expect to defeat Argilac, and he could reasonably expect to convince the Riverlords to rise against Harren. But that was it. Everything else was a gamble. The Vale could have resisted, Casterly Rock could have defied him forever, and the Reach could have crushed him if he hadn't been lucky.

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58 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

They retconned Revan doing it to fight the Sith as one of Traya's fantasies about her student as well. It turned out, in fact, that Revan really was just an AGENT of the Sith Emperor and fully onboard team evil.

Which is a disappointing twist but I think works well with Star Wars themes.

In any case, Aegon's conquest being motivated by a desire to save humanity is disappointing to me BUT I will say that the fact it was SUCH AN EPIC screwing of the pooch that I'm okay with it.

Like Rhaegar Targaryen, he could not have fouled it up worse.

Yeah, its Bioware vs. Obsidian there. 

Bioware wanted to say the Star Forge made Revan evil because it is a dark force machine. Obsidian retconned that with their own story. Then Bioware took over again and undid the story for their own purposes. Either way Kotor 2 was released in 2004 and A Game of Thrones was released in 1996 so Martin came first. 

But I don't buy this explanation at all. It is possible, but I just can't believe him in this, there was no way this was planned in the first few books at least. Anyways I think he has become obsessed with the Targaryens and wants them to take over the Stark storyline. 

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Dorne is completely irrelevant and it seems Aegon did understand that in the end, making peace with Deria, etc. It would have been good to get them into the fold as well but those desert dwellers wouldn't cause much of a problem if he and his subjects had ever to deal with the Others.

That's a rather huge leap of logic since we only know that Aegon relented after a ten year war when he received the letter that caused him to bloody his own hands. I believe the theory the Dornish threatened to execute his child with the Faceless Men. It wasn't for lack of trying to conquer Dorne that Aegon gave up.

He was just beaten and realized he had no avenue of success.

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Aegon provoked Argilac intentionally to have a pretext for war. But even if this whole thing hadn't been arranged by him ... Argilac's reaction was no justification at all to declare war on all the Seven Kingdoms. And no sane man would have done that. People rarely think about that ... but Aegon only had three dragons and very few men.

That's a ridiculous assertion. Aegon offered him a perfectly valid marriage proposal in his kinsman and second in command. And I'm getting some weird back and forth here. "Aegon is never the kind of guy to freak out/No sane man would do what Aegon did."

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He could expect to defeat Argilac, and he could reasonably expect to convince the Riverlords to rise against Harren. But that was it. Everything else was a gamble. The Vale could have resisted, Casterly Rock could have defied him forever, and the Reach could have crushed him if he hadn't been lucky.

Luck had nothing to do with sensible tactics. The Targaryens just had to lure their enemies on the open field of battle and then fry them. They only had to make a few careful examples like Harrenhal to show they had no defense. Which is basically the situation with all of the lords. The targaryens can destroy any and every noble house of Westeros. It's only Dorne where they can hide indefinitely.

And the Vale's situation is that they had the heir. If they didn't surrender, well, they had the heir.

 

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9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Yeah, its Bioware vs. Obsidian there. 

Bioware wanted to say the Star Forge made Revan evil because it is a dark force machine. Obsidian retconned that with their own story. Then Bioware took over again and undid the story for their own purposes. Either way Kotor 2 was released in 2004 and A Game of Thrones was released in 1996 so Martin came first. 

But I don't buy this explanation at all. It is possible, but I just can't believe him in this, there was no way this was planned in the first few books at least. Anyways I think he has become obsessed with the Targaryens and wants them to take over the Stark storyline. 

Ehhhhh

*waves hands*

It's a Song of Ice and Fire so it's always been the Targaryens and Starks story. Honestly, I'm surprised George hasn't realized that should be the title for the Snow story. "A Song of Ice and Fire" because that's Jon. We also know there's always been the prophecy of the Targaryens and Starks defeating the Others because Rhaegar apparently found it and believed they had to breed with the Starks to produce the three-heads of the dragon.

It's just Rhaegar screwed it up.

If this is a retcon, it's just Martin extending the plot back to the beginning.

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Quick question. I was recently watching a video by someone previewing the upcoming HBO series, and was taken aback when he described Criston Cole as "Dornish." Did I miss something somewhere? House Cole gains power serving House Dondarrion, a Dornish Reaches House pledged to Storm's End. Enemies of Dorne. Cole himself serves in the Kingsguard at a time Dorne is outside and opposed to Targaryen overlordship of the seven kingdoms. Not a likely place for a Dornishmen to serve. Is this a mistake on the previewer's part, a change that the show runner is making, or something I missed in the text?

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