House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[C.T. Phipps]

When do you think we'll get a House of the Dragons forum?

[Ran]

Sometime next week.

[TormundsWoman]

15 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

News sites are doing the most simplistic, bare-bones reporting on "there's a show called House of the Dragon" and then copy-pasting the same description template, but - for the most part - putting no effort into it.

I’ll be very honest I’m not sure who you mean by mainstream news sites. I know NYT, Vanity Fair, Time and Esquire all had some type of article touting HotD as one of the most anticipated TV for Summer 2022. These big outlets will never do a specific cover for one of the characters like those independent writers would like, regardless of the series until the said series actually proves itself. 

And as for online media outlets like Medium, The Atlantic etc. the Collider said it best to be honest and I thought they were simply cautious: “Whenever a GoT spinoff is born, the gods flip a coin…” and that’s due to development hell of which Martin talked about many times.

Most of the latter mentioned outlets will admit into some shape or form they were not particularly enamored with the ending of GoT but they don’t seem to be pimping other series that much either. Not WoT, not Rings of Power etc. Definitely not with a specific  character focus articles. It sounds like these freelance journalists thought they will have the same success as with GoT coverage at its height. The reality though seems to be that HotD won’t ride “GoT at its best” fame coattails or “GoT at its worst” and that is not a bad thing IMO.

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'll be honest that I'm hoping for this show's full success as much as possible. There was almost no interest in the show at Grimdark Magazine where I do writing and I've been doing every single article I can plus also trying to persuade other people to give it a try because I want Westeros to continue as a part of television for decades to come. Yeah, I hated what happened after Season 5 but I don't let that spoil my love of everything good.

It's why I want a proper Mass Effect 4.

Did they say why they weren't interested? Was it because of how GOT ended?

10 minutes ago, TormundsWoman said:

I’ll be very honest I’m not sure who you mean by mainstream news sites. I know NYT, Vanity Fair, Time and Esquire all had some type of article touting HotD as one of the most anticipated TV for Summer 2022. These big outlets will never do a specific cover for one of the characters like those independent writers would like, regardless of the series until the said series actually proves itself. 

And as for online media outlets like Medium, The Atlantic etc. the Collider said it best to be honest and I thought they were simply cautious: “Whenever a GoT spinoff is born, the gods flip a coin…” and that’s due to development hell of which Martin talked about many times.

Most of the latter mentioned outlets will admit into some shape or form they were not particularly enamored with the ending of GoT but they don’t seem to be pimping other series that much either. Not WoT, not Rings of Power etc. Definitely not with a specific  character focus articles. It sounds like these freelance journalists thought they will have the same success as with GoT coverage at its height. The reality though seems to be that HotD won’t ride “GoT at its best” fame coattails or “GoT at its worst” and that is not a bad thing IMO.

Yeah, I think that sort of thing is based on demand. If the show takes off, media outlets will be looking to capitalize on it. But it's very rare for a show to have as many character analyses or fun "fluff" pieces (i.e. "What type of music would these characters listen to in real life?") as GOT had. I also suspect that whatever HBO puts out between now and the premiere is going to be a reconfiguration of what we've already seen. They're not going to want to give too much away. As it is, they're only begrudgingly admitting that Alicent is Viserys' wife in interviews. 

[C.T. Phipps]

43 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Did they say why they weren't interested? Was it because of how GOT ended?

Yeah, the bitterness is tremendous.

I was honestly surprised.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yeah, the bitterness is tremendous.

I was honestly surprised.

Opinions on the last two seasons have only grown more hostile over the last three years.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yeah, the bitterness is tremendous.

I was honestly surprised.

Well, it's the general public that will determine the success of HotD anyway.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, it's the general public that will determine the success of HotD anyway.

Yes, but you want the geeks to embrace the series at the start.

[The Bard of Banefort]

It appears to me that the showrunners are trying to draw in female viewers by constantly mentioning the patriarchy, which I don’t think it a great move. Despite what a small percentage of Twitter pundits may lead one to believe, women generally don’t like spending all day thinking about how oppressed they are. Just the word “patriarchy” is the sort of thing that instantly makes you feel tired and bored.

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-is-about-the-patriarchys-perception-of-women-exclusive-image/

[Thomaerys Velaryon]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It appears to me that the showrunners are trying to draw in female viewers by constantly mentioning the patriarchy, which I don’t think it a great move. Despite what a small percentage of Twitter pundits may lead one to believe, women generally don’t like spending all day thinking about how oppressed they are. Just the word “patriarchy” is the sort of thing that instantly makes you feel tired and bored.

https://www.empireonline.com/tv/news/house-of-the-dragon-is-about-the-patriarchys-perception-of-women-exclusive-image/

I hope those are just publicity stunts and buzz words thrown around so people talk about the show more than anything. I don't need real-world politics in a fantasy show. Thank you very much.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yes, but you want the geeks to embrace the series at the start.

I don't know, it seems like HBO stopped catering to the geek crowd once GoT became a phenomenon.

[butterweedstrover]

I mean, it’s probably going to be good, but I’d much prefer something like the reign of Jaehaerys where we follow the king throughout his life. 
 

Tons of mysteries, domestic affairs, and tragedies leading up to the scene where Jaehaerys no longer recognizes the people on his own council. Poignant, moving, and more passive than just another free for all to win the throne.
 

The dance bored me so part of me wants it to fail, but my guts tell me it’s gonna be a hit. 

[Lord Varys]

11 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

I hope those are just publicity stunts and buzz words thrown around so people talk about the show more than anything. I don't need real-world politics in a fantasy show. Thank you very much.

Well, little is more 'real world politics' than a succession war - the US nearly devolved to that level after the last Presidential election.

What is problematic there is the simplified or modernistic approach to how the royal women cope with the challenges they face in the world they live in.

They seem to make Alicent, Rhaenyra, and Rhaenys into women who really struggle with patriarchy when neither actually has much of a problem with 'the system as such'. Rhaenys was more concerned with her grandfather passing over her unborn son in 92 AC than with Jaehaerys passing over herself - which is why she championed her son's cause in 101 AC. Rhaenyra never wanted to be the Heir Apparent but defends not only her own right to rule later on but also - and one could argue mainly - the rights of her five sons. Not to mention that she is pretty much just an obedient, dutiful daughter, defending her royal father's wishes and decrees. And Alicent is pretty much solely motivated by a similar dynastic interest.

Neither woman there wants to change the system.

Especially not Rhaenyra - who is everything a Targaryen woman can be ... and then more, once she is named Heir Apparent. They seem to portray as a woman who wants to be a man or more masculine because being a woman means she cannot be a proper monarch.

And that's just nonsense theoretically and in practice. The character of Rhaenyra as created by George is literally the antithesis of a 'masculine woman' - her interests, behavior, and conduct are all very feminine. Granted, we don't know whether she ever liked doing needlework and the like, but she dressed like a woman, she enjoyed being the most beautiful woman in the Realm, she became the loving and caring mother of five sons, she suffered from gaining weight in later life and was rather unhappy about this. There is no indication that she enjoyed male-coded pastimes like hunting or (horse-)riding (dragonriding she did, but that's the case for most female dragonriders).

Her taste in men indicates that she adored men who excelled in the sphere of medieval manliness ... and when she had to marry an effeminate homosexual man who preferred play the role of the woman while his favorite fought as his champion at a tourney she was furious.

Rhaenyra also never wanted to be or expected to be the next monarch. She was the only child of her parents, so they liked her very much. But the presumptive heir was her uncle Daemon. And she expected that her parents would have a son to succeed her father. She didn't expect that she had to fulfill that role ... until she had to because her father decided that it should be so. But then she was the Heir Apparent. Period. She didn't have to prove anything. By royal fiat she was the next queen, and people knew this and sought her favor.

If there are characters who should be suffering from inferiority complexes, from a desire to prove their worth and win the love and affection of their father it should be Alicent's three sons. Aegon's entire character should be about the question 'what is wrong about me, father, that I'm not your heir, that I'm not worthy enough to succeed you?'

Rhaenyra has nothing to prove. Her father gives her everything.

In that sense, this show should in no small way be about a father being so in love with his eldest child who happens to be a daughter that he ignores his younger sons. That is the really interesting issue here, not that a woman shouldn't rule. If Rhaenyra had had only sisters pretty much nobody would have complained about her being the chosen heir. It is that she has little brothers that causes the problem.

Rhaenyra herself also had not the slightest interest in participating in 'the male game', unlike other women of her house (Visenya, Alyssa and to a lesser degree her own granddaughter Daena). During the war as such Rhaenyra stayed out of military matters almost completely. She never personally planned or led a campaign, she never accompanied any of the armies fighting in her name into the field, she never personally flew her dragon Syrax into battle.

In light of the fact who and what Rhaenyra was during the Dance - the Queen Regnant of the Seven Kingdoms - this is very telling. She simply had no interest or intention of doing that kind of thing.

But more importantly - martial manliness is no prerequisite to be a monarch in this world. King Viserys I is a nice, fat, dragonless king - as physically and mentally unimpressive as you can possibly be. When the dynasty was still young it was a problem that King Aenys wasn't as impressive or imposing as Aegon I or Maegor. But Daemon is never an alternative to plump and amicable Viserys, just as the martial Aemond is never an alternative to fat and incompetent Aegon (until the latter is incapacitated).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

46 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Tones of mysteries, domestic affairs, and tragedies leading up to the scene where Jaehaerys no longer recognizes the people on his own council. Poignant, moving, and more passive than just another free for all to win the throne.

That's a big problem when you're trying to make a show for the largest possible audience.

[butterweedstrover]

39 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's a big problem when you're trying to make a show for the largest possible audience.

Mad Men was very much based on subtext and The Wire had a lot of procedural bureaucracy at its core. Seinfeld was a show about nothing, etc. 
 

Anyways a Jaehaerys show would be closer to the Tudors, there will be thrilling moments, betrayals, and warfare. It’s just less hyper focused and more about building a relationship with the main character.

[The Bard of Banefort]

40 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Mad Men was very much based on subtext and The Wire had a lot of procedural bureaucracy at its core. Seinfeld was a show about nothing, etc. 
 

Anyways a Jaehaerys show would be closer to the Tudors, there will be thrilling moments, betrayals, and warfare. It’s just less hyper focused and more about building a relationship with the main character.

As fun as a J/A show would be (especially since it would mean bringing Rhaena to the silver screen) they would definitely end up cutting and condensing the children, which I think would be a shame.

There’s really no point to keeping Daenerys, since she’s just foreshadowing for whatever GRRM has planned for our Daenerys (I think it would be better to have the Shivers occur much later and have Alyssa die from it instead, rather than killing two daughters via childbirth). They could get rid of all the children who died as infants and introduce Maegelle and Vaegon briefly before sending them off, with Maegelle popping up from time to time to make peace between her parents. But even then, that’s still eight main children who mostly look alike and would probably be condensed (like Saera and Viserra) or cut altogether (like Gael).

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

As fun as a J/A show would be (especially since it would mean bringing Rhaena to the silver screen) 

Rhaena is by far the most interesting character the Targaryens have without being hyper stylized. 
 

Seeing her twilight years in Harrenhall would be a dream for me. And I prefer her story in the Jaehaerys period than under Aenys or Maegor.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s really no point to keeping Daenerys, since she’s just foreshadowing for whatever GRRM has planned for our Daenerys (I think it would be better to have the Shivers occur much later and have Alyssa die from it instead, rather than killing two daughters via childbirth).

If that were foreshadowing for any other Daenerys it is very odd. She is not going to die as a child, that's for sure.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They could get rid of all the children who died as infants and introduce Maegelle and Vaegon briefly before sending them off, with Maegelle popping up from time to time to make peace between her parents. But even then, that’s still eight main children who mostly look alike and would probably be condensed (like Saera and Viserra) or cut altogether (like Gael).

Maegelle and Gael could both easily be cut, they have no story of their own. Viserra has a tragic story that could be more complex in an adaptation.

[The Bard of Banefort]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If that were foreshadowing for any other Daenerys it is very odd. She is not going to die as a child, that's for sure.

Maegelle and Gael could both easily be cut, they have no story of their own. Viserra has a tragic story that could be more complex in an adaptation.

GRRM changed the order of the kids and invented a new character named Daenerys who died of something called “the shivers.” Seems significant to me.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM changed the order of the kids and invented a new character named Daenerys who died of something called “the shivers.” Seems significant to me.

He retcons things all the time, so I wouldn't look too much into it. I guess he thought it was unrealistic that there was only one Daenerys in Westeros history before Dany and created another one.