House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[Angel Eyes]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The rumored Alicent Hightower foot fetish is one I predict will be the first big meme, oddly enough.

 

So who's going to get thrown out a window?

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

So who's going to get thrown out a window?

It's a shame we never saw a Hightower tossed off a high tower.

I predict meme wise:

* Rhaenyra's gay husband and bastards will be, "Ooooo."

* The banquet where everyone psychotically hates each other. Meme: "This is every Thanksgiving at my house."

* Rhaenyra marrying her uncle and the fans supporting it.

* Criston Cole getting dumped and becoming an emo sad boy about it who joins the Hightowers.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It's a shame we never saw a Hightower tossed off a high tower.

I predict meme wise:

* Rhaenyra's gay husband and bastards will be, "Ooooo."

* The banquet where everyone psychotically hates each other. Meme: "This is every Thanksgiving at my house."

* Rhaenyra marrying her uncle and the fans supporting it.

* Criston Cole getting dumped and becoming an emo sad boy about it who joins the Hightowers.

I was making a Pulp Fiction reference, particularly to the in-universe rumor where Mia Wallace had a foot massage and her husband Marsellus threw the masseuse out a window... the masseuse survived.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I was making a Pulp Fiction reference, particularly to the in-universe rumor where Mia Wallace had a foot massage and her husband Marsellus threw the masseuse out a window... the masseuse survived.

I thought you were making a Bran reference.

[The Bard of Banefort]

10 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The White Walkers have never been a big appeal for me as a book reader first as the politics as well as moral ambiguity was pretty new to me as a "Five Dollar Paperback" fantasy reader in the late Nineties. However, Game of Thrones did a fairly grand job realizing them on screen and the Mystery Box speculation about everything from R+J=L to what will happen next after each political move kept the show in constant state of tension. I also give credit to the book reading fandom of GOT, which I never thought I'd say about any fandom given the toxicity these days, that they were pretty good about keeping theri Red Wedding friends unspoiled.

Hopefully, everyone can keep RHAENYRA DIES from the show's fans.

Matt Smith is what apparently qualifies as a very good example of Western pretty boy, even though he's a good decade on from his Doctor Who days. I'm a bit amused about the joking about all of his nude scenes but do actually hope that he appeals to an audience that feels a little burned by Game of Throne's perceived (real or imaginary) misogyny problem. I don't think of him as nearly the same level of a household name as Sean Bean and would have expected a Jon Nobel or other Lord of the Rings alumni to pad the cast resume for a season with Viserys as a good pick for it. However, Game of Thrones needed to make a big splash with Season 1 while House of the Dragon is already well-known.

The rumored Alicent Hightower foot fetish is one I predict will be the first big meme, oddly enough.

There's a lot of prestige TV out there and people want more Game of Thrones as the success of the Witcher and Wheel of Time (despite that show's manifest failures) will mean it's guaranteed to be a big success. But I don't see it becoming a phenomenon again. I am comfortable in making a betting house prediction that between House of the Dragon and Rings of Power that HBO has got this on lockdown despite the latter's larger budget. I also predict that people are going to watch both if they can afford it.

You also don’t have to pay lesser-known actors as much money, which I’m thinking also played a part in the casting. I know Matt Smith was also in The Crown, but The Crown kind of strikes me as something similar to Girls or The Marvelous Ms. Maisel, where media types hype it a lot more than regular people watch it. 

I have a friend who thinks that TV’s high fantasy craze is over. I disagree, mostly because of The Witcher’s success, but it may be that grimdark is past it’s TV prime (is Witcher grimdark? I haven’t seen it). I think that the pandemic left people looking for something more earnest, which is why shows like Ted Lasso, Cobra Kai, and Stranger Things are so popular right now (the first two blew up mid-pandemic). One of the most interesting reasons I saw someone give for why they weren’t going to watch HOTD was that the war in Ukraine killed any interest they had in watching a story about a fictional war.

Hey, George, maybe now would be a good time to release some more Dunk and Egg? You know, the fun stories? Just sayin’.

[C.T. Phipps]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You also don’t have to pay lesser-known actors as much money, which I’m thinking also played a part in the casting. I know Matt Smith was also in The Crown, but The Crown kind of strikes me as something similar to Girls or The Marvelous Ms. Maisel, where media types hype it a lot more than regular people watch it. 

I have a friend who thinks that TV’s high fantasy craze is over. I disagree, mostly because of The Witcher’s success, but it may be that grimdark is past it’s TV prime (is Witcher grimdark? I haven’t seen it). I think that the pandemic left people looking for something more earnest, which is why shows like Ted Lasso, Cobra Kai, and Stranger Things are so popular right now (the first two blew up mid-pandemic). One of the most interesting reasons I saw someone give for why they weren’t going to watch HOTD was that the war in Ukraine killed any interest they had in watching a story about a fictional war.

Hey, George, maybe now would be a good time to release some more Dunk and Egg? You know, the fun stories? Just sayin’.

Speaking as a writer for grimdark, grimdark is really just a loose term for "dark adult fantasy" so it was never as specific a term as people thought it was or as much of a new genre as people claimed.

And yes, the Witcher and its adaptations are hella grimdark.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You also don’t have to pay lesser-known actors as much money, which I’m thinking also played a part in the casting’.

Obviously, that can change in a few years, depending on how successful HotD turns out to be. I also wonder if HBO will want to go beyond the planned 4(?) seasons if it really becomes a hit.

[Denam_Pavel]

55 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

 

Hopefully, everyone can keep RHAENYRA DIES from the show's fans.

 

 

doesn't seem likely

[Ran]

20 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I also wonder if HBO will want to go beyond the planned 4(?) seasons if it really becomes a hit.

Admittedly, I think they could totally make something fun of the regency of Aegon III, and that could add a year or two.

But then there is apparently the floated idea of turning it into an anthology show and just using the same title while exploring some other period of Targaryen history.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

13 minutes ago, Ran said:

But then there is apparently the floated idea of turning it into an anthology show and just using the same title while exploring some other period of Targaryen history.

If that's the case, they pretty much have to separate it from the GoT continuity, IMO. Otherwise, they might as well call it House of the Dragon Before It Turned Into a Dumpster Fire.

[The Bard of Banefort]

50 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Speaking as a writer for grimdark, grimdark is really just a loose term for "dark adult fantasy" so it was never as specific a term as people thought it was or as much of a new genre as people claimed.

And yes, the Witcher and its adaptations are hella grimdark.

Is the show adaptation more grimdark or schlocky though? Because everything I’ve heard about it sounds pretty schlocky haha

[C.T. Phipps]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is the show adaptation more grimdark or schlocky though? Because everything I’ve heard about it sounds pretty schlocky haha

I've read Sapkowski's works and they're hella grimdark and schlocky by themselves.

But they ramped up the schlock.

Like, 15%.

23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If that's the case, they pretty much have to separate it from the GoT continuity, IMO. Otherwise, they might as well call it House of the Dragon Before It Turned Into a Dumpster Fire.

I hope they do better reigns than Aegon III, who can basically be summarized as, "really sad emo king and his shitty regents."

Aegon I being the best one.

[SeanF]

44 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is the show adaptation more grimdark or schlocky though? Because everything I’ve heard about it sounds pretty schlocky haha

It’s more shlocky.  Yennefer got her clothes off pretty frequently in Season 1, and bewitched a bunch of people into having an orgy for her amusement.

The main book story is basically an extended version of Arya’s experiences in the Riverlands, with extra racial hatred.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Obviously, that can change in a few years, depending on how successful HotD turns out to be. I also wonder if HBO will want to go beyond the planned 4(?) seasons if it really becomes a hit.

There would be enough material for 5-6 seasons, I guess, if they expand and deepen certain plots. It would make sense to expand more on the Baratheons and Stormlands, add conflicts taking place in the North and the Vale, actually depict what's going on at the western coast with the Ironborn. Also, I think there is a lot of potential with many of the characters we meet in the Riverlands.

It also strikes one as imperative to stay with the main characters throughout the entire show, meaning we could see what Viserys does in Lys, what Aegon does while he is hiding, etc. And while I think it is crucial that Alicent is captured by Rhaenyra and in her power for some time ... it could make sense to have her flee the city eventually, go to Storm's End and come back with Borros to clean up the city.

The personal stories would also be pretty important. Addam Velaryon needs a proper arc, we have to be with him when he decides to raise another army to destroy Rhaenyra's enemies to prove his loyalty.

Originally I thought season 2 could end with Rhaenyra taking the Iron Throne. But they could do it slower and focus more on forging alliances and having the assassin plots play out, especially Blood and Cheese and subsequently the attempted assassination by Erryk Cargyll at Dragonstone. If they move certain plots around somewhat, focusing more on the Riverlands and the fighting there, they could move Rook's Rest to the end of season 2, playing up the Black Lords of the Crownlands as an actual threat to Aegon's reign because the main Hightower and Lannister troops are very far away and the Darklyn, Rosbys, Stokeworths, and Stauntons band together actually make trouble for the Greens. We could get Criston Cole as a kind of great strategist who actually uses very small military resources to win multiple victories over those Blacks, culminating in the fall of Duskendale and the siege of Rook's Rest.

Dragonriders from Dragonstone could help with that - it would be easily possible to have Jace and Baela make hit-and-run attacks on the mainland, a stratagem the Greens have trouble to counter due their lack of dragons. The Rook's Rest confrontation could be the culmination of that development.

In addition, the dragonriders are not necessarily glued to Dragonstone and KL, so we could see various dragonriders flying across Westeros to support various armies in the Riverlands and the Reach. While Rhaenyra might not meet with Daemon all that often at Harrenhal, Baela and Jace could visit him often enough, etc.

3 hours ago, Ran said:

Admittedly, I think they could totally make something fun of the regency of Aegon III, and that could add a year or two.

If Baela, Rhaena, and Alyn work as characters, the Regency could be game. Unwin Peake would have to work, too. I guess they would rearrange and streamline some things - have Viserys return earlier, increase the role of the Rogares, etc.

3 hours ago, Ran said:

But then there is apparently the floated idea of turning it into an anthology show and just using the same title while exploring some other period of Targaryen history.

I guess that would have worked better if they had started with the Conqueror rather than with Viserys I. Going back to Aegon I, his sons, or Jaehaerys I after the Dance would be really weird.

If they were to do that they would either change the title of the show or at least make a mild rebranding by adding a subtle, say, 'House of the Dragon - The Reign of the Conqueror' or something along those lines.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

It’s more shlocky.  Yennefer got her clothes off pretty frequently in Season 1, and bewitched a bunch of people into having an orgy for her amusement.

The main book story is basically an extended version of Arya’s experiences in the Riverlands, with extra racial hatred.

That’s what I thought. The schloky-ness seems to be what people enjoy about it, and I can see why. One of the reasons why True Blood was so entertaining was because of how campy it was. So much of the buzz around the show was about sex and gore that what was overlooked was how funny it was, especially the first few seasons. 

When you say racial hatred, do you mean within the scope of the story, or that the author’s kind of racist?

 

After HOTD, I think they’re going to need to take a break from the Targaryens for a few years. Not just because the focus on the Iron Throne would be repetitive, but because all the Targaryens look alike and have similar names. Hair color is usually what TV shows use to set the characters apart, at least the female ones. Even among the main cast of GOT, we had one blonde (Cersei), one white (Dany), one brunette (Arya), and one redhead (Sansa). Brienne was physically distinct enough that she stood out regardless. I think people would start to lose interest, especially after seeing Rhaenyra get roasted.

I think HBO is underestimating how many people still love the Lannisters. A show about young Tywin, or maybe a story pre-conquest, would probably be a big hit.

 

Rhaenyra’s death was also revealed in the history special on the Dance.

[C.T. Phipps]

Quote

When you say racial hatred, do you mean within the scope of the story, or that the author’s kind of racist?

The elves being oppressed like Jews.

In Sapkowski, its about the cycle of race hatred and the elves give as good as they get.

Dwarves are actually the Jew analogs ala Tolkien.

[EggBlue]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

When you say racial hatred, do you mean within the scope of the story, or that the author’s kind of racist?

within the scope of the story 

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 

After HOTD, I think they’re going to need to take a break from the Targaryens for a few years. Not just because the focus on the Iron Throne would be repetitive, but because all the Targaryens look alike and have similar names. Hair color is usually what TV shows use to set the characters apart, at least the female ones. Even among the main cast of GOT, we had one blonde (Cersei), one white (Dany), one brunette (Arya), and one redhead (Sansa). Brienne was physically distinct enough that she stood out regardless. I think people would start to lose interest, especially after seeing Rhaenyra get roasted.

 

Well I guess that would put Dunk and Egg on the backburner.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

That’s what I thought. The schloky-ness seems to be what people enjoy about it, and I can see why. One of the reasons why True Blood was so entertaining was because of how campy it was. So much of the buzz around the show was about sex and gore that what was overlooked was how funny it was, especially the first few seasons. 

When you say racial hatred, do you mean within the scope of the story, or that the author’s kind of racist?

 

After HOTD, I think they’re going to need to take a break from the Targaryens for a few years. Not just because the focus on the Iron Throne would be repetitive, but because all the Targaryens look alike and have similar names. Hair color is usually what TV shows use to set the characters apart, at least the female ones. Even among the main cast of GOT, we had one blonde (Cersei), one white (Dany), one brunette (Arya), and one redhead (Sansa). Brienne was physically distinct enough that she stood out regardless. I think people would start to lose interest, especially after seeing Rhaenyra get roasted.

I think HBO is underestimating how many people still love the Lannisters. A show about young Tywin, or maybe a story pre-conquest, would probably be a big hit.

 

Rhaenyra’s death was also revealed in the history special on the Dance.

Hatred within the story, especially between elves and humans.

[Lord Varys]

I think there is a decent enough chance that show is going to slow things down somewhat in season 2. They have to introduce whatever secondary players they want to use in the future (Starks, Arryns, Riverlords, Ironborn, Westermen), and they have to introduce the new core players - Daeron the Daring and Ormund Hightower and their entire entourage, the Hull boys, their mother, and the other dragonseeds, Alys Rivers, etc.

In addition, season 2 would be the last opportunity to focus somewhat on family moments - Aegon and Viserys are still together, and their father is still on Dragonstone, young Jaehaerys is still alive and his mother still mostly sane. Not sure how much we are going to see of Helaena's children in season 1, but it is likely not that much, so they should give us some scenes to properly introduce them before Blood and Cheese. I definitely think Blood and Cheese is going to be a rather convoluted thing with Rhaenyra/Daemon not actually wanting to target Aegon's irrelevant kids, but rather Aemond, the actual perpetrator, and/or Aegon so that they don't just avenge themselves but also kind of end the war before it escalates any further. I think we'll get a kind of butterfly effect there, both within the chain Rhaenyra-Daemon-Mysaria-in-betweens ... as well as Blood and Cheese themselves. It could be rather interesting to see them trying to kill various members of the Green royal family before they end up settling on Helaena and the children because nothing else appears promising or even possible.

One also imagines that the show is not exactly keen to lose Rhaenys all that early, so they might deliberately postpone that. If Jace were to end up marrying Sara Snow, bringing her back to Dragonstone, and if the search for additional dragonriders turns up the Hull boys while Rhaenys is still alive, there would be interesting potential for domestic drama on Dragonstone ... which could then be partially resolved if one of the quarreling people is very crucial in saving one of Erryk Cargyll's intended victims during the infiltration. While Arryk and Erryk will kill each other, Erryk might not have arrived alone, nor is it a given that Arryk confronts Erryk all by himself after a chance meeting. We could easily get more suspense if a character sees Erryk shortly after talking to Arryk, realizing that something is amiss and being dragged into the entire affair.

In KL I think they will also have to allow Blood and Cheese and its aftermath to breathe ... not to mention that the domestic quarrels there also have to play, the events leading up to Otto's dismissal and Criston's rise to the Handship. Depending how prominent a character Otto Hightower is in the show he cannot or shouldn't just disappear after he is fired for good ... but still interact with Alicent and whoever else still wants to talk to him. He could also continue his plans to defeat the Blacks behind Aegon's and Criston's back, etc.

The early Riverlands campaigns could be glossed over easily enough ... but I actually think they should show how common people and lowly knights, etc. rise for Rhaenyra, and having the Blackwood-Bracken feud play out in detail wouldn't be bad at all.

The show might also be well-advised to move Daemon's conquest of Harrenhal to a (much) later point because he cannot sit there for nearly an entire year of the war (or one or more than one season). While I think Daemon could and should be the most mobile of the dragonriders, the show might work better if Harrenhal will only be captured as part of the strategy to take KL, i.e. when they have already very concrete plans and how and when to draw the Green dragonriders away from KL. It could be a plan they make only after they have found the dragonseeds - the search for them could also be a longer process in the show than in the book.

Hugh and Ulf also need to be pretty complex and believable characters in the show. We must understand where they are coming from, how riding two of the largest dragons alive changes them, how they are treated thereafter by our characters, and what they actually want for themselves. Especially, of course, the betrayal of Tumbleton must be understood by the audience.

There is a lot of potential there, especially if those two have no idea about their backgrounds at all before they are asked to mount a dragon ... we could easily like and understand them throughout most - or the entirety - of their stories.