House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[Angel Eyes]

19 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Now that GRRM has requested Jaehaerys being brought back into canon, some are speculating that the entirety of F&B might get adapted in different TV shows.

Which one; the Old King, or the kid who lost his head (literally)?

[The Bard of Banefort]

27 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Which one; the Old King, or the kid who lost his head (literally)?

Jaehaerys II. Egg’s son.

[Angel Eyes]

4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaehaerys II. Egg’s son.

Oh yeah that one. Wasn't he retconned out in Season 1, but it'll make any adaptation of the War of the Ninepenny Kings nigh impossible since the Tragedy of Summerhall had already occurred.

[Lord Varys]

Jaehaerys II was never deleted from 'show canon' insofar as I'm aware of ... although they may have cut him from promo material kings lists or family trees and such.

They did change Aerys II into Aegon V's son rather than Jaehaerys II's. But that wouldn't have to mean that Jaehaerys II doesn't exist. They could have kept him as an elder brother of Aerys II if they ever made stuff set in that era.

But, of course, this was a stupid move and it is good that they do away with that. For all I care, folks who still watch GoT can pretend that Aemon was senile in that scene.

[C.T. Phipps]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys II was never deleted from 'show canon' insofar as I'm aware of ... although they may have cut him from promo material kings lists or family trees and such.

They did change Aerys II into Aegon V's son rather than Jaehaerys II's. But that wouldn't have to mean that Jaehaerys II doesn't exist. They could have kept him as an elder brother of Aerys II if they ever made stuff set in that era.

But, of course, this was a stupid move and it is good that they do away with that. For all I care, folks who still watch GoT can pretend that Aemon was senile in that scene.

I mean saying leaving off a grand is something that people do in RL. I refer to my Great Aunts as my aunts because why wouldn't I?

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean saying leaving off a grand is something that people do in RL. I refer to my Great Aunts as my aunts because why wouldn't I?

As I said above, this doesn't even come up in the dialogue of book or show. Aemon talks about his brother being King Aegon V and then he jumps down to his brother's poor grandson (Aerys II), his son (Rhaegar), and the little children (Rhaenys & Aegon) all being killed.

We don't get any talk about uncles and nephews there, simply talk about a brother and the grandchildren of that brother.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said above, this doesn't even come up in the dialogue of book or show. Aemon talks about his brother being King Aegon V and then he jumps down to his brother's poor grandson (Aerys II), his son (Rhaegar), and the little children (Rhaenys & Aegon) all being killed.

We don't get any talk about uncles and nephews there, simply talk about a brother and the grandchildren of that brother.

In the show it comes up.

Quote

My father was Maekar, the First of his Name. My brother Aegon reigned after him, when I had refused the throne, and he was followed by his son Aerys, whom they called the Mad King.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

In the show it comes up.

The it is even more simplified than I remembered. For the German dubbing we changed 'son Aerys' to 'grandson Aerys', ('Enkel Aerys' in German) so Jaehaerys II is not erased genealogically.

What I meant was that the exact uncle/nephew constellations don't come up. Aemon starts with Maekar, moves to his brother Aegon V, and then down the line. In the book it is the same although Aemon doesn't bother with the names, merely implying that the poor grandson of his brother was the Mad King.

It is the Old Bear who later tells us and Jon in detail how exactly Aemon fits into the Targaryen family tree.

[zajaz]

To be honest, if there is something I really can't stand (more so than disrespecting the source material) is retcons. Alright, so now Aemon was senile? Would that be the reasoning? What's next? The random Dornish noble we saw at the end of Season 8 was Quentyn, only he is now Doran's nephew / cousin instead of son? Young Griff exists, and he will appear in the Jon Snow spin-off? I am of the opinion that once you make changes, you should follow them. Cutting Jaehaerys might have been stupid, but if the writers suddenly decide that he did exist, it would be an even bigger stupidity. Would he be Aegon's older brother, then, if you want to keep Aemon as an accurate source of information regarding House Targaryen? I really hope this does not come to pass, but, then again...  it's not tv, it's HBO.

[dsjj251]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:03 AM, Mithras said:

Retcons are not necessarily bad. But when they are, as it seems like the route GRRM is going for the motivation behind Aegon's conquest, they really ruin everything. There only few things that can be worse than bad retcons.

Aegon conquering the Seven Kingdoms simply because  Argilac sent him the hands of his envoy in a box was never the real reason Aegon conquered Westeros.  That just didnt make sense. 

[dsjj251]

3 hours ago, zajaz said:

To be honest, if there is something I really can't stand (more so than disrespecting the source material) is retcons. Alright, so now Aemon was senile? Would that be the reasoning? What's next? The random Dornish noble we saw at the end of Season 8 was Quentyn, only he is now Doran's nephew / cousin instead of son? Young Griff exists, and he will appear in the Jon Snow spin-off? I am of the opinion that once you make changes, you should follow them. Cutting Jaehaerys might have been stupid, but if the writers suddenly decide that he did exist, it would be an even bigger stupidity. Would he be Aegon's older brother, then, if you want to keep Aemon as an accurate source of information regarding House Targaryen? I really hope this does not come to pass, but, then again...  it's not tv, it's HBO.

Different writers . so they get to change things if they want. does it even get mentioned on screen that Jaehaerys II doesnt exist ????

[Mithras]

Jaehaerys II should have never existed in the book canon in the first place. There is nothing about him that can't easily be attributed to Egg or his sons.

Jaehaerys II becomes a grandfather at the age of 34. Rhaella gives birth to Rhaegar at a very young age (14 at max, most probably younger than that – as young as 12 for the conception). GRRM did not have to stretch and squeeze the family tree so much if he thought about the simple solution of deleting Jaehaerys II (and his sister-wife Shaera of course).

In this case, Aerys II and Rhaella would replace Jaehaerys II and Shaera as children of Aegon IV. GRRM only had to make them 6-12 years older and everything would be fine with respect to ages. This would necessitate another interesting switch.

In the current version, Jaehaerys and Shaera were betrothed to a Tully and a Tyrell but they were in love and broke those betrothals by a secret wedding and bedding. In the modified version, since there was no love lost between Aerys and Rhaella, it would fall on Egg to break those agreements and wed his youngest children, all because of the Ghost of High Heart’s prophecy. This would add more color to Egg’s character and certainly alienate him to his wife who was not a fan of Targaryen incest.

[Ran]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

For the German dubbing we changed 'son Aerys' to 'grandson Aerys', ('Enkel Aerys' in German) so Jaehaerys II is not erased genealogically.

That's pretty bad work of the subtitlers to materially change the text. Improving a translation is one thing, finding words that better fit the style is one thing, but literally saying, "No, I don't like that change to the canon, we're doing this instead"... bizzare that they went along with it, IMO.

[The Bard of Banefort]

If you can get past the paywall, this piece discusses the GOT backlash a bit more honestly, including the revelation that George has received a lot of angry emails about it (where do people even find his email?):

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/10/arts/television/house-of-the-dragon-hbo-got.amp.html

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

That's pretty bad work of the subtitlers to materially change the text. Improving a translation is one thing, finding words that better fit the style is one thing, but literally saying, "No, I don't like that change to the canon, we're doing this instead"... bizzare that they went along with it, IMO.

Well, it isn't subtitling but dubbing here in Germany ... and they do take their leeway with the original material. Historically, there are entire movies and show which were dubbed into being comedies rather than serious movies, etc. (which is really silly with TOS, for instance).

The deciding factor there is not correct translation but proper lip synch ... or the appearance thereof. People have to buy that the people are saying this, it cannot be accurately translated and folks on the screen (no longer) say anything. Of course, you usually don't strife to make people say something they don't ... but simplifications and outright changes are not uncommon at all.

7 hours ago, Mithras said:

Jaehaerys II should have never existed in the book canon in the first place. There is nothing about him that can't easily be attributed to Egg or his sons.

That is a completely nonsensical line of argument. There was no need for George to make the family tree that weird. That's part of his decision to have Egg marry rather late in 220 AC. If he had married a couple of years earlier the family tree would have worked much better.

Although, apparently, Jaehaerys II was always imagined as a king who died early, just as Aerys was imagined as a guy who came to the throne very young and died around the age for forty.

Not to mention that he could just as well have made Rhaella the elder sibling there.

[C.T. Phipps]

35 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If you can get past the paywall, this piece discusses the GOT backlash a bit more honestly, including the revelation that George has received a lot of angry emails about it (where do people even find his email?):

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/10/arts/television/house-of-the-dragon-hbo-got.amp.html

To quote Sterling Archer, "This is why we can't have nice things."

[Denam_Pavel]

Peter Vaughan's lines were just punchier that way "...His son Aerys.... But when they told me they killed my brother's son, and his son! And the children, even the little children!" Just sounded better then distracting the audience by making them go "wait how old is this character suppose to be???"

[zajaz]

10 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Different writers . so they get to change things if they want. does it even get mentioned on screen that Jaehaerys II doesnt exist ????

So if the Jon Snow spin-off writers came along and said that Arianne existed this whole time, as Doran's daughter, that should be fine, right? They are different writers, and they get to change things as they see fit, no? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

As for Jaehaerys II not existing, seeing as Aemon said that Aegon was succeded by his son Aerys, it's obvious that (at the very least), Jaehaerys either was Aerys' elder brother that died before Aegon, or he did not exist in the first place. In both cases, Jaehaerys II's reign is not part of the show canon.

Then again, the writers could simply say: 'While maester Aemon the Senile kind of forgot that Aerys was his brother's grandson and not his son, we certainly haven't forgotten that fact'.

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, zajaz said:

So if the Jon Snow spin-off writers came along and said that Arianne existed this whole time, as Doran's daughter, that should be fine, right? They are different writers, and they get to change things as they see fit, no? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it.

I mean, yes, I totally think they should include Arianne.

I want the following things in Snow:

* Alys Karstark

* Lady Stoneheart

* Val

* Victarion Greyjoy

Use everything they didn't use in the main series, no matter how nonsensical.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, yes, I totally think they should include Arianne.

I want the following things in Snow:

* Alys Karstark

* Lady Stoneheart

* Val

* Victarion Greyjoy

Use everything they didn't use in the main series, no matter how nonsensical.

In other words, continuity-shmontinuity.