The Grey Wolf Strikes Back Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 24 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Was Aegon II considered a kinslayer for feeding Rhaenyra to Sunfyre? Pretty sure he was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 25 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Was Aegon II considered a kinslayer for feeding Rhaenyra to Sunfyre? He isn't called that in the books, but he clearly meets the criteria. And he and his lackeys all meet the kind of endings that usually are reserved for kinslayers in those books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: He isn't called that in the books, but he clearly meets the criteria. And he and his lackeys all meet the kind of endings that usually are reserved for kinslayers in those books. I think it's best summarized as, "Future generations hate Rhaenyra and use her as an example of a Mad Queen but it's not like Aegon II is much better in their view." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Lord Varys said: It seems pretty clear that Rhaenyra at least didn't think that, since she gave specific instruction not to harm Daemon and send him back to court because she had urgent need of him. She apparently thought that he wouldn't care about Nettles at all once she was a cold corpse. Daemon could have also seized power as regent of his son Aegon, of course, but he could just as well done so in the name of his wife. At least he could have tried. Yeah, which is my point in that it is something that a reasonable person would have seen coming. Rhaenyra had gotten lost in the Targaryen monomania that makes them see everything through tunnel vision. A "normal" person would have because it's faulty logic to begin with. "You want to kill them for the fact he cares about her too much but don't think he'll take it personally." Quote Nope, Dalton Greyjoy specifically prepared for a civil war, buildling more and more warships during the last years of Viserys I. He foresaw a succession Rhaenyra and Daemon didn't do anything to prepare for. If they had prepared for a war, they wouldn't have been forced to look for allies at the beginning of the war. They would have just needed to send out ravens telling their friends that the time had come to fight. That's what I'm arguing. A lot of people could have seen the civil war coming for good reason but the Targaryens genuinely seemed to have thought they'd handle it peacefully. Rhaenyra even says she was planning on giving high positions to her nephews and people before they murdered her kids. Naive? Perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 Rhaenyra convinced herself that Nettles was a sorceress who has bewitched Daemon, and that he would see reason once she was gone. I have a hard time seeing GRRM killing Tyrion off, but as a kinslayer, it does feel like he should meet an inglorious end. Who do most non-book readers believe Alicent is, based on the trailer? Do they think she’s Daemon’s wife? Because if I hadn’t read the books, I would have no idea why this one random brunette is such a big concern for Rhaenyra’s ascension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Rhaenyra convinced herself that Nettles was a sorceress who has bewitched Daemon, and that he would see reason once she was gone. I have a hard time seeing GRRM killing Tyrion off, but as a kinslayer, it does feel like he should meet an inglorious end. Who do most non-book readers believe Alicent is, based on the trailer? Do they think she’s Daemon’s wife? Because if I hadn’t read the books, I would have no idea why this one random brunette is such a big concern for Rhaenyra’s ascension. 1. Ah, forgot that. 2. That gets into a whole other jug of wine because that would mean that Jon is condemned for killing Daenerys. George isn't going to change that presumably because that's the whole "Azor Ahai" business of murdering the woman he loves. Which admittedly he was already ready to do with Ygritte. 3. I think that would be a decent guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 34 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: I think it's best summarized as, "Future generations hate Rhaenyra and use her as an example of a Mad Queen but it's not like Aegon II is much better in their view." Actually, neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon II are mentioned at all as examples for 'mad Targaryens' in the main series. They are the Dance guys, so they get referenced as those, but not as examples for weird or a mad or cruel behavior (unlike Maegor, Baelor the Blessed, Aerion Brightflame, and Aerys II). However, when reading FaB I think Aegon II clearly ranks among the worst/cruelest rulers in history. Not only because of his bad temper and imcompetence, but also because he is living torches guy. 35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: Yeah, which is my point in that it is something that a reasonable person would have seen coming. Rhaenyra had gotten lost in the Targaryen monomania that makes them see everything through tunnel vision. A "normal" person would have because it's faulty logic to begin with. "You want to kill them for the fact he cares about her too much but don't think he'll take it personally." As has been said, she ended up believing that Nettles was a witch. In context, though, this whole thing certainly qualifies as a kind of mad episode. She eventually reached a point where the pressure and betrayal she had been facing during the war did leave its marks. But she never actually succumbed to that. After she flees the city she seems to recover rather well, despite the fact that it seems as if her cause had been lost. Which it never was. The letters she writes in Duskendale decide the war. They lead to Cregan Stark's and Jeyne Arryn's final initiatives. If she hadn't returned to Dragonstone she would have lived to see her victory. 35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said: That's what I'm arguing. A lot of people could have seen the civil war coming for good reason but the Targaryens genuinely seemed to have thought they'd handle it peacefully. Rhaenyra even says she was planning on giving high positions to her nephews and people before they murdered her kids. Yes, but it really doesn't make much sense that people at the vicinity of Westeros had a better understanding about what was going on at court than the actual players there. If Rhaenyra didn't even expect or a prepare for a war, how could anyone with no intimate knowledge about either faction expect that she would be willing or capable of doing that if push came to shove? 32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I have a hard time seeing GRRM killing Tyrion off, but as a kinslayer, it does feel like he should meet an inglorious end. Well, if Tywin turns out to be merely Tyrion's first cousin once removed George might give him a pass for that. Also, Tywin is more manslaughter than premeditated murder, so it is not *that bad*. The really unforgivable crime there is Shae. That is going to come back and haunt Tyrion. It already starts doing that in Tyrion's mind, but it might get much worse as the story progresses. I do think Tyrion's final undoing will be his jealousy for Jon-Dany's happiness. It seems as if they wanted to go that route in the penultimate season ... and then moved in a completely ridiculous direction. Especially if Tyrion were to turn out to be Dany's bastard half-brother ... then he could be her closest confidant and companion even if they don't end up in an incestuous Targaryen marriage (something that likely would be on the table if Tyrion were to become a dragonrider). But if Jon shows up as the true hidden Targaryen princeling and Dany falls for him completely it might be more than Tyrion can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Actually, neither Rhaenyra nor Aegon II are mentioned at all as examples for 'mad Targaryens' in the main series. They are the Dance guys, so they get referenced as those, but not as examples for weird or a mad or cruel behavior (unlike Maegor, Baelor the Blessed, Aerion Brightflame, and Aerys II). However, when reading FaB I think Aegon II clearly ranks among the worst/cruelest rulers in history. Not only because of his bad temper and imcompetence, but also because he is living torches guy. As has been said, she ended up believing that Nettles was a witch. In context, though, this whole thing certainly qualifies as a kind of mad episode. She eventually reached a point where the pressure and betrayal she had been facing during the war did leave its marks. But she never actually succumbed to that. After she flees the city she seems to recover rather well, despite the fact that it seems as if her cause had been lost. Which it never was. The letters she writes in Duskendale decide the war. They lead to Cregan Stark's and Jeyne Arryn's final initiatives. If she hadn't returned to Dragonstone she would have lived to see her victory. Yes, but it really doesn't make much sense that people at the vicinity of Westeros had a better understanding about what was going on at court than the actual players there. If Rhaenyra didn't even expect or a prepare for a war, how could anyone with no intimate knowledge about either faction expect that she would be willing or capable of doing that if push came to shove? Well, if Tywin turns out to be merely Tyrion's first cousin once removed George might give him a pass for that. Also, Tywin is more manslaughter than premeditated murder, so it is not *that bad*. The really unforgivable crime there is Shae. That is going to come back and haunt Tyrion. It already starts doing that in Tyrion's mind, but it might get much worse as the story progresses. I do think Tyrion's final undoing will be his jealousy for Jon-Dany's happiness. It seems as if they wanted to go that route in the penultimate season ... and then moved in a completely ridiculous direction. Especially if Tyrion were to turn out to be Dany's bastard half-brother ... then he could be her closest confidant and companion even if they don't end up in an incestuous Targaryen marriage (something that likely would be on the table if Tyrion were to become a dragonrider). But if Jon shows up as the true hidden Targaryen princeling and Dany falls for him completely it might be more than Tyrion can handle. I’ll be honest: if Tyrion was a secret Targaryen and dragon rider, I don’t think D&D would be able to resist including it. He is the smartest/kindest/greatest man in the realm, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I’ll be honest: if Tyrion was a secret Targaryen and dragon rider, I don’t think D&D would be able to resist including it. He is the smartest/kindest/greatest man in the realm, after all. We don't have any idea, really, about how much they cut out because they wanted to bring the show to an end. After all, removing the entirety of Griff turns out to be less because it's unimportant given all the foreshadowing about the Blackfyres in D&E than just because they didn't want to deal with introducing a whole new cast of characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 I wonder how less sex/nudity will affect viewership? I think I always underestimated how many people watched GOT (and HBO in general) for that reason alone. There’s also been surprisingly little romance in the trailers. They’re clearly trying to attract female viewers with the Rhaenyra vs. Alicent angle but, while it may sound outdated, entertainment usually uses romance to do that (and I say that as someone who is generally uninterested in romance). Assuming Rhaenyra and Criston have some kind of tryst, I would have thought they’d play up that a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I’ll be honest: if Tyrion was a secret Targaryen and dragon rider, I don’t think D&D would be able to resist including it. He is the smartest/kindest/greatest man in the realm, after all. I think it's more that GRRM himself is/was on the fence about it and isn't sure whether to go in that direction or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I wonder how less sex/nudity will affect viewership? I think I always underestimated how many people watched GOT (and HBO in general) for that reason alone. There’s also been surprisingly little romance in the trailers. They’re clearly trying to attract female viewers with the Rhaenyra vs. Alicent angle but, while it may sound outdated, entertainment usually uses romance to do that (and I say that as someone who is generally uninterested in romance). Assuming Rhaenyra and Criston have some kind of tryst, I would have thought they’d play up that a bit. I wonder if they'll use Rhaenyra and Strong as a romance that ends tragically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said: There’s also been surprisingly little romance in the trailers. I think the trailer tries to cash in with the things that worked with GOT: intrigues, political maneuvering, visual splendor,... Showcasing romance may remind viewers how awfully that aspect was dealt with in the past series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: Who do most non-book readers believe Alicent is, based on the trailer? Do they think she’s Daemon’s wife? Because if I hadn’t read the books, I would have no idea why this one random brunette is such a big concern for Rhaenyra’s ascension. in part of the trailer there's the line" you're the king ... you should marry.." on a scene of Viserys and an apparently brunette woman .. though I see how that could be confusing.. but perhaps the more keen viewers figure it out? ..... however,it doesn't really matter.. does it ? you don't usually watch trailers to know who everyone is , you just watch them to see how the general feel of the show is... I guess.. 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: I think the trailer tries to cash in with the things that worked with GOT: intrigues, political maneuvering, visual splendor,... Showcasing romance may remind viewers how awfully that aspect was dealt with in the past series. that's so true!! yeah , I don't think I would have trusted GoT prequels with romances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said: I wonder how less sex/nudity will affect viewership? I think I always underestimated how many people watched GOT (and HBO in general) for that reason alone. I'm not so sure about that, because there are plenty of shows with nudity that haven't become popular. And let's be real, people have more easy access to nudity than ever before. There is no need to get an HBO subscription and watch hours of television if it's nudity someone wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.T. Phipps Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 50 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: I'm not so sure about that, because there are plenty of shows with nudity that haven't become popular. And let's be real, people have more easy access to nudity than ever before. There is no need to get an HBO subscription and watch hours of television if it's nudity someone wants. It was sometimes gratuitous but I also am not one of the people who believes it lowers an artistic works' value by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 16 hours ago, Lord Varys said: That is true ... but Jaehaerys and his sons burned thousands of people alive on those ships. Thousands of soldiers who launched an unprovoked invasion of their kingdom. C’mon, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: Thousands of soldiers who launched an unprovoked invasion of their kingdom. C’mon, now. Sure enough. But if we view dragons as nukes then Jaehaerys decided to use nukes to defeat a fleet he could also have taken out conventionally ... and in a way that ensured that no sailor would survive the attack. That is a very ugly stratagem. Folks in Tumbleton, Bittebridge, etc. still had a chance to survive the dragon attacks there. But if you are attacked at sea you are pretty much helpless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bard of Banefort Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: I'm not so sure about that, because there are plenty of shows with nudity that haven't become popular. And let's be real, people have more easy access to nudity than ever before. There is no need to get an HBO subscription and watch hours of television if it's nudity someone wants. Premium TV has an air of respectability that porn doesn’t (i.e. “it’s not porn, it’s HBO”), which is why all the complaints about sexual assault were always brushed off as “pearl clutching” because this was sErIoUs tEleViSiOn. Unlike porn, you can openly watch GOT in your living room or at a bar. Plus, the actresses in HBO are usually prettier than in porn videos, the production and acting is better, there are better plot lines, and you very rarely have to look at a man’s member in the process. A few years ago, HBO had to send a cease-and-desist to Pornhub to get them to take down clips from their shows (including GOT), which were racking up huge numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said: Sure enough. But if we view dragons as nukes then Jaehaerys decided to use nukes to defeat a fleet he could also have taken out conventionally ... and in a way that ensured that no sailor would survive the attack. That is a very ugly stratagem. Folks in Tumbleton, Bittebridge, etc. still had a chance to survive the dragon attacks there. But if you are attacked at sea you are pretty much helpless. The dragons as nuclear weapons is a metaphor for their destructive power, but it’s nothing close to 1-for-1, and in this scenario they’re akin to warplanes. Moreover, combatants versus non-combatants is a huge difference here; the laws of war do not require you to give invading enemies a chance to escape. Nor is there some moral imperative for Jaehaerys to risk the lives of his own men in a conventional engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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