House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. Nothing precludes a magical bond with the Targaryens and dragons. It's just saying that a sufficiently skilled animal trainer could do it.

Whatever they might be able to do would be something completely different. I mean, all Aemond did to permanently bond with Vhagar was to jump on his back and take him for a ride. And he did that at the age of ten without having any connection to this particular dragon whatsoever.

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. The only person we know who TRIED to use animal husbandry on a dragon over a long period of time was Nettles.

But that's not presented as an alternative to 'the Targaryen way of doing thing' - it was the preparation to get close enough to this particular wild dragon to mount him.

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

3. Jace made that promise and people just tried to ride the dragon without taking a long period of earning its trust. Which is what happened to Quentyn.

There would have been dozens of people who had the trust of the riderless castle dragons on Dragonstone. Vermithor, Silverwing, Seasmoke, etc. were fed everyday, presumably, and not by royal princes and princesses.

Dany's dragons are kind of half wild at this point, I'd say. They have been imprisoned and they don't like that all that much. They feel betrayed. Quentyn was on the verge of mounting Viserion ... his problem was that he had no longer considered Rhaegal.

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

4. Only three people, all knights, also tried to ride a dragon with the first two being maimed and the third person not trying at all.

No, there were many more which aren't mentioned by name in the book. The Sowing was a very bloody affair. Although most people were killed by the wild dragons.

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

5. There's no indication those people tried or would be allowed to try in the first place outside of that specialized circumstance.

I guess it would have happened naturally. If a dragon had actually bonded with a groom or servant of Dragonkeeper the person in question would have realized that sooner or later, especially with a hatchling or young drake. I mean, right now even Brown Ben Plumm and Daenerys realize that her dragons like him ... and that's clearly because of Ben's Targaryen ancestry.

And keep in mind that Dany's maids were as instrumental as the Mother of Dragons is caring for and rearing Dany's dragons ... they fed and cared for them as much or perhaps even more than Dany herself (who would have been occupied with many other tasks). Yet as the dragons grow older they start to hiss and snap at Irri and Jhiqui when they are angry and irritated, a behavior they do not direct against Daenerys under normal circumstances (Drogon in the pit is a special case, of course - he is not a half wild dragon but wild dragon at that point - he remembers Daenerys but not only fondly)

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

6. The argument is not that dragons would take any rider. The argument is that someone would spend weeks attempting to  arn its trust and THEN try. Which we only have one example of and it working. In real life if you try to mount a wild horse, which is a domesticated animal, you will get thrown.

Of course ... but you don't forge the kind of bond the dragonriders have with their dragons by just riding them without having the ability to forge such a bond. Dragons are not horses. Domesticating them is something only the Valyrians accomplished - apparently with blood magic.

I mean, the proper real world parallels would be lions and tigers - we can get them do certain tricks in a circus environment ... but we cannot ride them.

And dragons are monstrous top predators who could never be domesticated by mundane means. Not to the degree that it was safe to keep them around populated areas.

I mean, it is already a stretch to assume that the Targaryen dragons could be kept at the Red Keep or in KL or even on Dragonstone. They would prey on people and animals alike. And there would be lethal accidents almost constantly.

23 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

7. The bigger issue is there's not that many dragons to begin with so we don't have much testing data.

We actually do. There were lots and lots of dragons on Dragonstone in the beginning of Jaehaerys' reign, and also earlier during the reign of the Conqueror. The Dragonpit was also full of young dragons when Jaehaerys' children took their pick, so the people caring for them could have gained the trust of those dragons, too. And would have, if it had been pretty easy.

If that worked, then Vermithor, Silverwing, and Seasmoke would have been claimed by the guys who fed and cared for them for the last years or decades. They would have been the people they trusted ... like Sheepstealer eventually trusted Nettles.

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

On the one hand, GRRM has always defended the depiction of sexual violence, saying that it’s part of the realism. At the same time, we learned from FCKAD that George was also very upset about the show adding rape subplots for Dany and Sansa, and he wrote a blog post after Cersei and Jaime’s sex scene in the sept about how he had not intentionally written it as a rape scene. So even George clearly has some mixed feelings about all this.

It boils down to how you want to portray war and crime. Rape as a standard plot device is bad writing ... rape as part of the depiction of violence in war not so much. I'm thinking of Arya's Riverlands journey here. It doesn't depict her rape, but rape and torture as part of the ugly side of war.

And you don't have to depict most of that. Most of the HotD main characters are not going to get raped as far as I recall.

[The Bard of Banefort]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It boils down to how you want to portray war and crime. Rape as a standard plot device is bad writing ... rape as part of the depiction of violence in war not so much. I'm thinking of Arya's Riverlands journey here. It doesn't depict her rape, but rape and torture as part of the ugly side of war.

And you don't have to depict most of that. Most of the HotD main characters are not going to get raped as far as I recall.

I don’t think any of the main characters were raped, unless you believe the Brothel Queens story. The closest was Sharis Footley, who was a tertiary character that we never met in the flesh.

Then again, most of the main characters in ASOIAF have not been sexually assaulted either, save Aeron and maybe Cersei (I’m not convinced GRRM intentionally wrote Cersei as a rape survivor). Many of the POVs are harassed—especially Sansa and Brienne—but George usually stops short of full-blown assaults for main characters. Then there are a few secondary characters like Gilly, Lollys, and Tysha. 

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think any of the main characters were raped, unless you believe the Brothel Queens story. The closest was Sharis Footley, who was a tertiary character that we never met in the flesh.

Then again, most of the main characters in ASOIAF have not been sexually assaulted either, save Aeron and maybe Cersei (I’m not convinced GRRM intentionally wrote Cersei as a rape survivor). Many of the POVs are harassed—especially Sansa and Brienne—but George usually stops short of full-blown assaults for main characters. Then there are a few secondary characters like Gilly, Lollys, and Tysha. 

Be it intentionally or unintentionally, ASoIaF very often depicts marital rape scenes, starting with Drogo and Daenerys (not necessarily the wedding scene in the book, but the sex they have thereafter), Cersei-Robert fit that bill, too, then, of course, Walder Frey and his most recent wife, even Lysa and Jon Arryn to a point. Not to mention Ramsay and Jeyne.

I personally have no issue with Asha and Qarl's rape roleplay (although George could have used a different scene there), nor Jaime-Cersei's sex games - in their case it is pretty clear that they know each other so well that it is consensual.

In fact, I think at times the non-sexual violence might be too much - the crow cages and physical mutilations are at times very gratuitous.

[C.T. Phipps]

21 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t think any of the main characters were raped, unless you believe the Brothel Queens story. The closest was Sharis Footley, who was a tertiary character that we never met in the flesh.

Then again, most of the main characters in ASOIAF have not been sexually assaulted either, save Aeron and maybe Cersei (I’m not convinced GRRM intentionally wrote Cersei as a rape survivor). Many of the POVs are harassed—especially Sansa and Brienne—but George usually stops short of full-blown assaults for main characters. Then there are a few secondary characters like Gilly, Lollys, and Tysha. 

I think Cersei definitely qualifies in the fact that she was not consenting to Robert at any point after their marriage.

But oddly, the books make it much clearer (to me at least) versus the show that Theon is also sexually assaulted by Ramsay. Possibly regularly.

Not that the sexual violence wasn't there obviously.

Which I hesitate to say is a NICE aversion of "only pretty ladies are assaulted" in fiction but is an aversion.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Damn, how could I forget Jeyne Poole? Ugh

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I only started watching Rawrist’s videos recently, but so far I really like them. There are surprisingly few female ASOIAF YouTubers, and she’s fun and doesn’t overly politicize things the way a lot of other content creators feel the need to. She posted this video today about the controversy surrounding how sex and sexual violence is portrayed on GOT/HOTD (link below), and the quote from George at the end got me thinking about how he has a certain duality in this this regard.

On the one hand, GRRM has always defended the depiction of sexual violence, saying that it’s part of the realism. At the same time, we learned from FCKAD that George was also very upset about the show adding rape subplots for Dany and Sansa, and he wrote a blog post after Cersei and Jaime’s sex scene in the sept about how he had not intentionally written it as a rape scene. So even George clearly has some mixed feelings about all this.

I think this is also something that pertains to written vs. visual depictions. We’re constantly told that people are getting raped in ASOIAF, but I don’t think we’re ever shown it. I we were, I doubt as many people would have read the books. That’s harder to pull of onscreen.

https://youtu.be/xG6Rz9uW98A

I don't mind politicizing if it's not attempting to say "it's become woke, therefore it is bad." However she seems to be very interesting.

Thanks for linking me!

[SeanF]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Be it intentionally or unintentionally, ASoIaF very often depicts marital rape scenes, starting with Drogo and Daenerys (not necessarily the wedding scene in the book, but the sex they have thereafter), Cersei-Robert fit that bill, too, then, of course, Walder Frey and his most recent wife, even Lysa and Jon Arryn to a point. Not to mention Ramsay and Jeyne.

I personally have no issue with Asha and Qarl's rape roleplay (although George could have used a different scene there), nor Jaime-Cersei's sex games - in their case it is pretty clear that they know each other so well that it is consensual.

In fact, I think at times the non-sexual violence might be too much - the crow cages and physical mutilations are at times very gratuitous.

I’m surprised, actually, we haven’t had impalement and hanging, drawing, and quartering introduced to the story.

I expect the burning of Shireen to be quite harrowing.  And the retribution meted out to the Meereenese masters and Old Blood will probably be pretty brutal in TWOW.

[C.T. Phipps]

Since we've all read Fire and Blood, it's kind of peculiar everyone is worrying about the possibility of sexual assault when there doesn't appear to be any in the story.

Except one event that may or may not happen.

And I predict will because it will be the kind of shocking evil from a woman to other women that will get the tongues a wagging.

[SeanF]

30 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Since we've all read Fire and Blood, it's kind of peculiar everyone is worrying about the possibility of sexual assault when there doesn't appear to be any in the story.

Except one event that may or may not happen.

And I predict will because it will be the kind of shocking evil from a woman to other women that will get the tongues a wagging.

They might well include it for shock value.

In canon, I doubt it happened, simply because royals don’t like humiliating other royals.

[C.T. Phipps]

42 minutes ago, SeanF said:

They might well include it for shock value.

In canon, I doubt it happened, simply because royals don’t like humiliating other royals.

I mean there's the legend of how Edward II met his end...

I think George R.R. Martin has said, himself, he dials Medieval History up to the 11.

[SeanF]

19 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean there's the legend of how Edward II met his end...

I think George R.R. Martin has said, himself, he dials Medieval History up to the 11.

Everyone knows that story about the red hot poker is a fiction.

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Everyone knows that story about the red hot poker is a fiction.

And....so is Westeros.

ALTERNATE RESPONSE:

Hence the term legend.

ALTERNATE RESPONSE 2#:

Dude was still murdered.

[Macklunkey]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:12 PM, SeanF said:

Yes, they’re like Gatling guns, or repeating rifles, against enemies still using edged and pointed weapons.

"Whatever happens, we have got the Maxim gun and they have not."

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

David Lightbringer saw the first episode at the premiere, and he seem happy with it.

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

I’m surprised, actually, we haven’t had impalement and hanging, drawing, and quartering introduced to the story.

We kind of got that in FaB when Jaehaerys dealt with the murderers of Rego Draz. George seemed to have forgotten about that punishment earlier ... although we must say, that we rarely actually see the execution of common traitors in the books.

9 hours ago, SeanF said:

I expect the burning of Shireen to be quite harrowing.  And the retribution meted out to the Meereenese masters and Old Blood will probably be pretty brutal in TWOW.

Yes, of course, Shireen should be horrible. The slaughter by the victors at Winterfell and in Meereen (and later Yunkai) should also be very cruel. But I'm not sure we are going to see all that firsthand. Cruelest, I think, are things going to be in the Riverlands, especially when the Twins are going to be dealt with.

6 hours ago, SeanF said:

They might well include it for shock value.

In canon, I doubt it happened, simply because royals don’t like humiliating other royals.

If that were to happen in the show it would be something for season 3 or so. Most certainly not stuff they are going to concern themselves with now.

If there is war-related violence in the first season it will likely be Stepstones stuff.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

David Lightbringer saw the first episode at the premiere, and he seem happy with it.

He says it’s more serious than GOT, but I’m not sure what that means. GOT was serious too.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

He says it’s more serious than GOT, but I’m not sure what that means. GOT was serious too.

Not as many dirty jokes, maybe?

[Lord Varys]

The way they are writing Rhaenyra - as a daughter who really tries to be the son her father wanted and who expresses her desire for power in a more masculine way - indicates they will definitely drop the whole fat-shaming thing. Rhaenyra clearly is not fat(ter) after her first three pregnancies, nor at the beginning of the Dance.

In turn, this might also indicate she couldn't care less about 'the Strong allegations'. The scene in where she and Alicent get physical in the wake of the Aemond incident seems to indicate that Alicent actually tried to personally cut out Luke's eye.

The chance that Rhaenyra later on bothers much with the Strong nonsense is pretty small. At best, I think, we can expect her to laugh at such allegations, pointing out that she is the blood of the dragon and does what she wants.

In turn, that would make it exceedingly unlikely that Rhaenyra is going to go with the Brothel Queen nonsense. George's character had issues with being accused of adultery. She may have even only married Daemon as soon as she did because she was already pregnant at the time. She also clearly had issues with losing her beauty and no longer being desirable for her husband. There is an insecurity and a vulnerability there which I don't expect to see in Emma D'Arcy portrayal to the same degree.

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The way they are writing Rhaenyra - as a daughter who really tries to be the son her father wanted and who expresses her desire for power in a more masculine way - indicates they will definitely drop the whole fat-shaming thing. Rhaenyra clearly is not fat(ter) after her first three pregnancies, nor at the beginning of the Dance.

In turn, this might also indicate she couldn't care less about 'the Strong allegations'. The scene in where she and Alicent get physical in the wake of the Aemond incident seems to indicate that Alicent actually tried to personally cut out Luke's eye.

The chance that Rhaenyra later on bothers much with the Strong nonsense is pretty small. At best, I think, we can expect her to laugh at such allegations, pointing out that she is the blood of the dragon and does what she wants.

In turn, that would make it exceedingly unlikely that Rhaenyra is going to go with the Brothel Queen nonsense. George's character had issues with being accused of adultery. She may have even only married Daemon as soon as she did because she was already pregnant at the time. She also clearly had issues with losing her beauty and no longer being desirable for her husband. There is an insecurity and a vulnerability there which I don't expect to see in Emma D'Arcy portrayal to the same degree.

For what it’s worth, Emma is coming on as an accomplished stage actor, which is a lot more than Emilia could say.