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35 minutes ago, Mithras said:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/asoiaf/viewtopic.php?p=23715#p23715

This is the earliest bit I could find, which GRRM might have read back in the day and referred to it as the fan speculation about Aegon's motive in conquering Westeros.

Oh, so GRRM was referring to fan speculation in real life, not speculation by some characters in Westeros? 

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I think whether it's a good plotline or not, it's pretty clear it's canon to George's view.

It also makes it very likely a pivotal moment of Westeros going horribly wrong is Rhaenyra knows she's the Defense of the World against the zombie apocalypse but Aegon II never learns because he kills her before she can pass it along to Aegon III.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think whether it's a good plotline or not, it's pretty clear it's canon to George's view.

IMO, if it's an idea that he had from the very beginning, then there is a bigger chance that he will present it in a satisfying way. If it's a random retcon on his part, then maybe not. :unsure:

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9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Thank you! The fact this comes from the show and not Martin's text explains a lot. While not ruling out the show runners created this backstory perhaps with Martin's consent, it does raise considerable need of explanation. A man of Dornish descent in the Kingsguard, and indeed who becomes the Lord Commander, is not something we would expect in this time period. The death of Rhaenys and the refusal of Dorne to accept Targaryen rule is too strong a backdrop to Martin's story to just accept Cole's Dornish heritage, to whatever extent it is, without some detailed explanation. 

I don't think this should be an issue at all. Rhaenyra later has an exiled Yronwood among her household knights (one of the Seven Who Ride to save Joffrey Velaryon), so its clear they have no issues with Dorne at that time. And Jaehaerys didn't have issues with Dorne, either, only with a certain moronic prince.

Criston Cole would also not be a Dornish nobleman but most likely of common Dornish descent. Say, they have his father or grandfather take a Dornish wife. The Coles are clearly not a noble family. Politically this might be odd to a point since Criston Cole supposedly supported Aegon II because 'of Andal succession customs' ... a Criston Cole with a Dornish background should have been more familiar with Dornish succession customs. On the other hand - while he was Rhaenyra's buddy he clearly had no problem with her succession, so that argument is most likely just a pretext on his part.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Ehhh, we know that the Essos states have their own system of aristocracy that do not depend on the House system of Westeros. It's entirely possible that Orys is a man of Valyrian blood and the aristocracy of Dragonstone (or what passes for it) ala House Velayron without having to be part of a house. Indeed, House Targaryen may simply be applying the rules of Westeros to the ruling family of them as well.

While the Valyrians clearly didn't have feudal houses as such, they did have aristocratic houses/families in a similar fashion, for example the forty ruling dragonlord families mentioned by Gyldayn.

While it is possible that Orys doesn't have a common background ... so far we have no reason to believe that 'Baratheon' is a noble name nor the name of a noble family.

I think the best parallel to Aegon and Orys are Robb and Jon - with the difference that Lord Aerion never officially acknowledged or raised Orys as his son, yet Aegon and Orys were still as close as brothers. Jon has no clue who his mother was, so all he knows that he is bastard born on his father's side and most likely common born on his mother's side.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Which gets into the larger meat of what I'm saying that if Aegon considered Orrys Baratheon an insult to the House Durrandon, it's a very strange action to promptly give him the largest chunk of his conquests out of any of his followers. Aegon also notably raised Orrys Baratheon to the position of the Hand of the King and always treated him as his second in command (overlooking his wives/sisters because that's what historians do).

I'm sure Aegon thought Orys to be a worthy husband to Argella Durrandon - but he must have known that Argilac wouldn't see it that way. It is clear that Aegon demonstrated who was in charge and whose opinion mattered by forcing through the Orys-Argella marriage in the end.

Orys was the first Hand, yes, but he didn't serve long in that capacity. He was captured by the Dornish in 4 AC, I think, and resigned after he returned in 7 AC, lacking a hand. And during the reign of Aegon I the Handship wasn't the office it would be later. Rhaenys and Visenya acted in Aegon's place in his absence, not the Hand.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I'm inclined to view the alliance as a sincere offer. If anyone was insulting, it was the Stormlands king who ignored that Aegon was already married twice.

Lots of people ignored that, going with the rationale that a king who already had two wives could also take a third or fourth. We have Sharra Arryn offering her own hand in marriage during the Conquest, and later Manfred Hightower offers his maiden daughter to Aegon as well. After Rhaenys' death the entire Realm through their daughters and sisters at Aegon to replace her, etc.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The Crownlands and Dragonstone, which isn't a bad basis of power by itself.

It is pretty odd insofar as any proper conqueror would have taken the most fertile lands for himself, building a powerbase that the other lords could not hope to match.

Most of the great houses seem to control the largest territories in their lands directly, explaining why they are the ones in charge and able to keep their most powerful rivals in line. Gyldayn points out that the Tullys are an exception to this rule, controlling smaller lands and fewer men directly than the most powerful Riverlords.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

As we see with the subsequent few generations, House Baratheon also is the strong right hand of the Targaryen household that protects King Jaeharys and has historical blood ties to their lineage. I doubt there was anyone closer to the royal household than Aegon and his sister/wives than Orrys.

It seems that the Velaryons were as close or closer to the Targaryens than the Baratheons. Aethan's daughter married Prince Aenys, after all. And both Rogar Baratheon and his nameless father are conspicuously absent during both the reigns of Aenys and Maegor. And while Orys and Aegon apparently never had a falling-out, Orys apparently lived at Storm's End when the Conqueror died.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

To be fair, it was not as if Aegon Targaryen just accepted their allegiance and went on his merry way. Aegon proceeded to put the Reach, Stormlanders, and other forces directly to work against his enemies in order to show they were willing to fight for him. If nothing else, ten years of war with Dorn solidified that they were under Aegon's command.

There was some of that on the Field of Fire, but there the men were apparently mostly Crownlanders and Riverlanders. Afterwards it never came to blows. Not with Torrhen at the Trident nor with Harlan at Highgarden nor with the Hightowers at Oldtown.

And support for Aegon's Dornish adventure was actually rather modest. He just raised a Reach army and a Stormlander host (the latter a given due to Orys being Lord of Storm's End) but Harlan Tyrell's son refused to support Aegon's war any longer after his father and his army had disappeared without a trace in the Dornish Sands.

9 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It seems a peculiar idea to assume all trade is with Essos when Westeros is just to the side.

True enough, but most international/luxury trade seems to be in the hands of the Free Cities, not so much the Westerosi. That didn't even change after the Conquest.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Pretty sure that the only reason Cole is of Dornish descent on the show is because he’s swarthy. All the other Stormlanders we’ve met were as white as it gets, so this creates an in-universe explanation for why he’s not.

He is from the Dornish Marches, which is on the border between the Stormlands and Dorne, so it's not a big deal.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Pretty sure that the only reason Cole is of Dornish descent on the show is because he’s swarthy. All the other Stormlanders we’ve met were as white as it gets, so this creates an in-universe explanation for why he’s not.

I don't think there was any need for an explanation there. We see pretty much no Stormlanders in GoT, anyway, aside from the Baratheon brothers, Brienne, and Beric Dondarrion.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there was any need for an explanation there. We see pretty much no Stormlanders in GoT, anyway, aside from the Baratheon brothers, Brienne, and Beric Dondarrion.

 

 

And Meryn Trant.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think there was any need for an explanation there. We see pretty much no Stormlanders in GoT, anyway, aside from the Baratheon brothers, Brienne, and Beric Dondarrion.

Keep in mind that HOTD is very concerned with the criticism GOT received for lacking diversity. Dorne is the only canonically multi-ethnic kingdom, so they probably wanted a Dornish character for that reason (if I remember correctly, the casting call for Cole even mentioned that the character could be any race). 

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3 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Hey, I was out picking up the new Wild Cards comic book in Manhattan and I saw this video billboard ad for House of the Dragon (with Empire State Building in background)

 

 

Interesting that they went with Young Rhaenyra for the ads. I can see why—she’s adorable and looks a bit like Dany—but she’s only going to be in the first few episodes. The marketing seems to be focusing on Young Rhaenyra and Adult Alicent.

I saw your post on YouTube where you said something about how you know some reporters who don’t want to cover the show. Why not?

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39 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Keep in mind that HOTD is very concerned with the criticism GOT received for lacking diversity. Dorne is the only canonically multi-ethnic kingdom, so they probably wanted a Dornish character for that reason (if I remember correctly, the casting call for Cole even mentioned that the character could be any race). 

He could be any race for all I care - and still be a Stormlander with no Dornish descent. This wasn't really necessary in-universe. Cole's commoner background could easily have him be of mixed heritage or something along those lines.

I mean, for all we know Viserys I's court could have been multi-ethnic as hell. We know literally nothing about the race of most of the court luminaries, especially not the Hightowers, Strongs, Grand Maesters, Eustace, Mushroom, the Kingsguard, etc.

Everything would have been better than the Velaryon mess.

And they could have cast some actual albino actors for the Targaryen rather than a badly shaved Considine whose stubble they didn't dye. This guy looks about as Valyrian as I. And I was blond as a child.

Must say I still loathe them for dropping the purple eyes. Somebody go along and make a fan edit making the eyes purple. It shouldn't be that hard. If that existed for GoT I might actually be almost tempted to rewatch, like, the first season or.

I mean, they bother with dragon eggs frying pans and 'Valyrian dread lock wigs' but not the eyes? That just sucks.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Interesting that they went with Young Rhaenyra for the ads. I can see why—she’s adorable and looks a bit like Dany—but she’s only going to be in the first few episodes. The marketing seems to be focusing on Young Rhaenyra and Adult Alicent.

I saw your post on YouTube where you said something about how you know some reporters who don’t want to cover the show. Why not?

They might do a lot of flashbacks.

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wasn't it because Emilia Clarke struggled with contact lenses on GoT?

I give great credit to Levar Burton who did seasons of Star Trek almost completely blinded by his visor.

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