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3 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

He retcons things all the time, so I wouldn't look too much into it. I guess he thought it was unrealistic that there was only one Daenerys in Westeros history before Dany and created another one.

We’re going to have to disagree on that one. Having a new Daenerys that dies of something that evokes ice (in a series called A Song of Ice and Fire), especially considering how Dany’s story ended on the show, is way too on the nose for me to write off as a coincidence.

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19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We’re going to have to disagree on that one. Having a new Daenerys that dies of something that evokes ice (in a series called A Song of Ice and Fire), especially considering how Dany’s story ended on the show, is way too on the nose for me to write off as a coincidence.

If there is one thing I've learned regarding GRRM's writing over the last few years, it's that looking for foreshadowing is pretty much pointless, since he can change his mind about literally anything at any moment. That's neither good nor bad, that's just how he writes, which he made very clear in his big blog post a while back.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rhaenyra herself also had not the slightest interest in participating in 'the male game', unlike other women of her house (Visenya, Alyssa and to a lesser degree her own granddaughter Daena). During the war as such Rhaenyra stayed out of military matters almost completely. She never personally planned or led a campaign, she never accompanied any of the armies fighting in her name into the field, she never personally flew her dragon Syrax into battle.

Frankly, I think you are making a lot of bold assumptions and gender choices that aren't backed up by the setting or character. The fact is that Rhaenyra was named heir to the Seven Kingdoms for DECADES that shaped her. She was also a ruthlessly practical and deadly player of the game. Before she was sent off to Dragonstone, the Green and the Blacks were already knives deep into each other with political intrigue as well as counterplots as well as plots with one another. Rhaenyra recognized early on that Alicent was a threat to her and certainly felt the same about her half-brother.

Debates about Rhaenyra's masculiness or feminity are also pointless because the definitions of both of those change from social class to house (The Targaryens have very different from the rest of Westeros) to period of time even in-setting. Martin also loves mocking these things to death (as they deserve to be) given the most badass Knight of the War of Five Kings is Ser Loras the most flamboyant. Arya and Brienne may have "masculine" interests but it's the system that has decided that these are such things that makes it ridiculous.

Rhaenyra is a queen and someone who had to fight for her rights because she knew that not only was Alicent Hightower going to challenge them with her vile spawn and father but also because she's already had to fight for the rights of her children. House Velaryon's lesser scions scheming against her children's inheritance. Rhaenyra by the time she claims the queenship is a seasoned player of the game and stateswoman who effectively ruled in her husband's stead long before marrying Daemon.

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5 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I mean, it’s probably going to be good, but I’d much prefer something like the reign of Jaehaerys where we follow the king throughout his life.

To give a sense on how I'd feel about that as an adaptation, I'd do any reign of Jaehaerys from someone OTHER than him.

Perhaps his sister and her family on Dragonstone with its love affairs, murder, lesbian pirate queens, and mutant horrifying parasite deaths.

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15 hours ago, SeanF said:

Opinions on the last two seasons have only grown more hostile over the last three years.

You might be right about that. I would have expected some “In Defense of Season 8” pieces, but there have been remarkably few of them.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

GRRM changed the order of the kids and invented a new character named Daenerys who died of something called “the shivers.” Seems significant to me.

It certainly is significant ... the first Daenerys forms a kind of 'three-headed dragon' with her two younger brothers and Aemon and Baelon who constantly vie for her attention. This may very well be a reflection of the Conqueror and his sister-wives as well as a kind of foreshadowing of the three-headed dragon Rhaegar tried to create ... and it could also allude to what Daenerys might end up becoming later in the story.

But mostly this is just the name Daenerys being more prominent in Westerosi history. Which is not insignficiant since in context there is no reason at all why the dying Rhaella should name her only daughter Daenerys and not give her a more prominent Targaryen name.

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14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It certainly is significant ... the first Daenerys forms a kind of 'three-headed dragon' with her two younger brothers and Aemon and Baelon who constantly vie for her attention. This may very well be a reflection of the Conqueror and his sister-wives as well as a kind of foreshadowing of the three-headed dragon Rhaegar tried to create ... and it could also allude to what Daenerys might end up becoming later in the story.

But mostly this is just the name Daenerys being more prominent in Westerosi history. Which is not insignficiant since in context there is no reason at all why the dying Rhaella should name her only daughter Daenerys and not give her a more prominent Targaryen name.

The theory I’ve seen is that she named her Daenerys out of hope that the Dornish would protect her, since the last Daenerys married a Dornish prince.

What’s really weird is why no future Targaryens named their daughter Alysanne.

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Hmm who do you think this is about?


Potential spoiler:

Spoiler

There was a rumor on Reddit a few weeks ago that Aegon II is a rapist on the show, but no one ever provided anything to verify that.

Let’s hope it’s just some guy that Daemon has gelded during his days as Lord Flea Bottom.

Edited by The Bard of Banefort
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Per Ran:

Quote

you saw the family tree of the targaryens, and the family tree for jaehaerys and his offspring changes quite a lot when fire and blood comes out. because george realized that he wanted to create a kind of parallel by introducing another daenerys. and he said like, i like the symmetry of it, i like the sort of the way. you could perhaps read it as reflecting on daenerys's story, maybe. i wish it was true.

 

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We’re going to have to disagree on that one. Having a new Daenerys that dies of something that evokes ice (in a series called A Song of Ice and Fire), especially considering how Dany’s story ended on the show, is way too on the nose for me to write off as a coincidence.

Dying at the hands of the Others and/or in the utmost North?

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

He wishes what was true?

Quote

i mean i think fans of daenerys need to be really worried about what's going to happen to her. although i guess game of thrones maybe has revealed kind of where things may possibly end. again the journey is going to be very different. i think you know circumstances, things are going to be very different. so there's a journey that matters. but in any case, so yes i think george uses cycles and things a bit. he likes setting up parallels of events, he likes paralleling characters, he likes paralleling events, and he likes paralleling the past and the present as well

 

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9 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

You might be right about that. I would have expected some “In Defense of Season 8” pieces, but there have been remarkably few of them.

Yeah, I was surprised by that too. And I know it's the elephant in the room here, but I wonder if many of the changes to Winds that GRRM talked about making recently are due to the negative reaction to Season 8?

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1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, I was surprised by that too. And I know it's the elephant in the room here, but I wonder if many of the changes to Winds that GRRM talked about making recently are due to the negative reaction to Season 8?

I think that some of the things that happened in Season 8 had to have D&D's doing and were inherently bad ideas. Jaime Lannister NOT being the one to kill Cersei Lannister but going back to her is something that I refuse to believe was actually planned. Not that he doesn't die strangling her, necessarily, but that he doesn't do it (mercy kill perhaps?). I also believe Varys, obviously, has a long and complicated plotline that was utterly shredded. Certainly, Tyrion lost the emotional heart of his story with his now-absent seeking his dead wife as well as descent into misogyny as well as madness until the others pull him out.

But I believe the Daenerys madness plot was always there. However, I feel like presentation is 90% the problem and the rushing through it was what killed the series. If we had Daenerys hallucinating Viserys like in the books as early as Dance, we'd perhaps be easing into the idea Daeny did NOT escape her father's incest madness.

And it would have been a tragedy.

i posted this on other forums and would happily ask if anyone knows some books that go into further details or threads as this is how I understood it. Also, if any details are wrong:

There's a couple of books that are coming out and have come out which basically describe the "behind the scenes" of D&D being a lot more hostile and questionable in their decisions than we were led to believe because HBO really wanted to be the good guys and avert Executive Meddling.

* Basically, from everything I've read D&D wanted to get out of Game of Thrones as early as Season 4 and were hoping to wrap up the series in Season 5 before releasing theatrical movies. HBO reacted to this the way a cable companty WOULD react to the fact that they do not produce theatrical movies and would not make nearly as much money nor would it in any way benefit from them. D&D were nonplussed by this.

* D&D were apparently also suffering fatigue from the show because they wanted to start moving it from the more expansive three sets working simultaneously at all times down to one set. Which they found out wasn't happening (no shit, Sherlock). A lot of their efforts were trying to rapidly reduce their workload.

* D&D did have the fact that they were trying to stick with the main cast so they wanted to combine or cut characters whenever possible like Victarion Greyjoy, the Martells, Quentyn Martell, and so on. The Golden Company is literally an entire seasons more of material with Griff the Pretender (I don't know this for sure but it's pretty damn obvious) and so on they decided to dump on Jon instead. But again, they wanted to reduce their workload and bring the show to a close, not continue to expand on it.

* Apparently Lady Stoneheart was supposed to be a plot according to the actress but they cut it as well among other book plots.

* D&D started playing hardball with HBO and wanted to do "Confederacy" instead despite the fact every executive at HBO apparently HATED the idea. For, well, obvious reasons. They were promised it if they would continue making Game of Thrones, though, so it became a case of them doing it for the promise but at dramatically reduced episode sizes.

* D&D also found the cast increasingly hostile and didn't expect the level of resistance they got from Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, and others. They had expected most of them to be ready to move on but quite a few of them felt this was their gravy train and HBO had been quite good to them. Emilia Clarke was actually feeling like D&D were the bad guys in her much-publicized disputes about nudity and health concerns since HBO happily amended her contracts. Kit and Emilia had also been given ample time to work on other projects. The "rushing to the end" really got them in several fights.
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10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hmm who do you think this is about?


Potential spoiler:

  Hide contents

There was a rumor on Reddit a few weeks ago that Aegon II is a rapist on the show, but no one ever provided anything to verify that.

I doubt that the rapist is him. Dance is already in favor of the blacks. the best way to depict Aegon II and not frustrate the audience , especially considering the ending, is to make him a sympathetic loser . in the book he reads a bit like a sociopath completely unsympathetic and uncaring towards others which is not really necessary since Aemond is right there for us loathe ... 

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think that some of the things that happened in Season 8 had to have D&D's doing and were inherently bad ideas. Jaime Lannister NOT being the one to kill Cersei Lannister but going back to her is something that I refuse to believe was actually planned. Not that he doesn't die strangling her, necessarily, but that he doesn't do it (mercy kill perhaps?). I also believe Varys, obviously, has a long and complicated plotline that was utterly shredded. Certainly, Tyrion lost the emotional heart of his story with his now-absent seeking his dead wife as well as descent into misogyny as well as madness until the others pull him out.

But I believe the Daenerys madness plot was always there. However, I feel like presentation is 90% the problem and the rushing through it was what killed the series. If we had Daenerys hallucinating Viserys like in the books as early as Dance, we'd perhaps be easing into the idea Daeny did NOT escape her father's incest madness.

And it would have been a tragedy.

i posted this on other forums and would happily ask if anyone knows some books that go into further details or threads as this is how I understood it. Also, if any details are wrong:

There's a couple of books that are coming out and have come out which basically describe the "behind the scenes" of D&D being a lot more hostile and questionable in their decisions than we were led to believe because HBO really wanted to be the good guys and avert Executive Meddling.

* Basically, from everything I've read D&D wanted to get out of Game of Thrones as early as Season 4 and were hoping to wrap up the series in Season 5 before releasing theatrical movies. HBO reacted to this the way a cable companty WOULD react to the fact that they do not produce theatrical movies and would not make nearly as much money nor would it in any way benefit from them. D&D were nonplussed by this.

* D&D were apparently also suffering fatigue from the show because they wanted to start moving it from the more expansive three sets working simultaneously at all times down to one set. Which they found out wasn't happening (no shit, Sherlock). A lot of their efforts were trying to rapidly reduce their workload.

* D&D did have the fact that they were trying to stick with the main cast so they wanted to combine or cut characters whenever possible like Victarion Greyjoy, the Martells, Quentyn Martell, and so on. The Golden Company is literally an entire seasons more of material with Griff the Pretender (I don't know this for sure but it's pretty damn obvious) and so on they decided to dump on Jon instead. But again, they wanted to reduce their workload and bring the show to a close, not continue to expand on it.

* Apparently Lady Stoneheart was supposed to be a plot according to the actress but they cut it as well among other book plots.

* D&D started playing hardball with HBO and wanted to do "Confederacy" instead despite the fact every executive at HBO apparently HATED the idea. For, well, obvious reasons. They were promised it if they would continue making Game of Thrones, though, so it became a case of them doing it for the promise but at dramatically reduced episode sizes.

* D&D also found the cast increasingly hostile and didn't expect the level of resistance they got from Kit Harrington, Emilia Clarke, and others. They had expected most of them to be ready to move on but quite a few of them felt this was their gravy train and HBO had been quite good to them. Emilia Clarke was actually feeling like D&D were the bad guys in her much-publicized disputes about nudity and health concerns since HBO happily amended her contracts. Kit and Emilia had also been given ample time to work on other projects. The "rushing to the end" really got them in several fights.

Wow, interesting. Where did you hear all of this?

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think that some of the things that happened in Season 8 had to have D&D's doing and were inherently bad ideas. Jaime Lannister NOT being the one to kill Cersei Lannister but going back to her is something that I refuse to believe was actually planned. Not that he doesn't die strangling her, necessarily, but that he doesn't do it (mercy kill perhaps?). I also believe Varys, obviously, has a long and complicated plotline that was utterly shredded. Certainly, Tyrion lost the emotional heart of his story with his now-absent seeking his dead wife as well as descent into misogyny as well as madness until the others pull him out.

I beg to differ. I think Jaime's fate was planned as early as Season 5 since it's something discussed between him and Bronn in Dorne about how they want to die; Bronn wants to die an old man with his sons fighting over their inheritance, Jaime in the arms of the woman he loves. The Valonqar is noticeably left out of Cersei's prophecy flashback in the first episode.

Edited by Angel Eyes
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