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thinking about Aegon's prophecy about the white walkers which seems to come from Martin and be book canon (because otherwise it's utterly stupid in show universe).... I think Rhaenys must have known about the prophecy and it could be an explanation of her actions (or inaction) throughout Viserys's reign . Aemon was heir for years and it seemed as if he treated her as his own heir (probably for years, considering she didn't  have any siblings for 16 yrs) . so , it's more than possible that he had shared the Targ secret with her . this could explain why she did not do anything against Viserys despite (at one point) having 3 dragons, including Vhaegar, and the biggest navy in Westeros against Viserys's Syrax . 

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9 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

thinking about Aegon's prophecy about the white walkers which seems to come from Martin and be book canon (because otherwise it's utterly stupid in show universe).... I think Rhaenys must have known about the prophecy and it could be an explanation of her actions (or inaction) throughout Viserys's reign . Aemon was heir for years and it seemed as if he treated her as his own heir (probably for years, considering she didn't  have any siblings for 16 yrs) . so , it's more than possible that he had shared the Targ secret with her . this could explain why she did not do anything against Viserys despite (at one point) having 3 dragons, including Vhaegar, and the biggest navy in Westeros against Viserys's Syrax . 

I think she also probably figured it was a lost cause at that point. 

The part about being Aemon’s acknowledged heir is also a good point. I’m guessing that the reason Jaehaerys never cared about succession until after Aemon had died was because he just figured that Aemon would take care of it once he was king. I’m not sure whether he planned on naming Rhaenys or his first grandson as his heir, but there’s no indication he planned on skipping over her line. I wonder how he would feel about his father and brother depriving his daughter of her inheritance.

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1 hour ago, Maia said:

Concerning HoTD - one of the big failings of FaB in my eyes was how the female characters were presented and treated, so I am glad that the show seeks to improve things on that score. But I won't lie - in hindsight much of FaB was quite disappointing, so the show will have an uphill battle to convince me. 

GRRM really missed on a big opportunity to develop early female characters like Argella Durrandon, Jocelyn Baratheon, or Sharra Arryn. I'm not a fan of how he uses certain female characters as essentially a "baby factory" and then throw them away. Aemma Arryn is probably the worst example in my opinion. We litteraly know nothing about this character except that she married too early and had complicated childbirths that put her in an early grave.

The content concerning Alyssa Velaryon and Rhaena Targaryen were a pleasant surprise. Despite what I just said, I actually like Alyssa's death because:
1) She is an older women and her age is brought within the story as a reason for the difficult childbirth, so her death doesn't come out of the left field.
2) Childbirth difficulty was not used here as simply a reason to get rid of her, but also to built tension between her daughter Rhaena and her husband Rogar. Her death clearly affected them both gravely and in a different way. This contrast with Aemma's case where we never hear about someone missing her or remembering her, not even from her widowed husband Viserys who quickly remarried, or her daughter Rhaenyra. We have only one link between Aemma and Rhaenyra really, that is the Arryn sigil depicted in Rhaenyra's personal arms. And I suspect it was done more to gain favor from Jeyne Arryn than for Aemma's sake.

Jonquil Darke was a cool new character, except we don't know when and how she died. Did she ever had to do something to protect Alysanne ? That would have been a cool thing to read about. There is a build up for Fire & Blood 2 with Alys Rivers, Samantha Tarly-Hightower, and to some extent Elenda Caron-Baratheon and Johanna Westerling-Lannister. Rhaena and Baela are a welcome presence at Aegon's court. So hopefully those ladies will have their time to shine in F&B 2.

Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon
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17 minutes ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

GRRM really missed on a big opportunity to develop early female characters like Argella Durrandon, Jocelyn Baratheon, or Sharra Arryn. I'm not a fan of how he uses certain female characters as essentially a "baby factory" and then throw them away. Aemma Arryn is probably the worst example in my opinion. We litteraly know nothing about this character except that she married too early and had complicated childbirths that put her in an early grave.

The content concerning Alyssa Velaryon and Rhaena Targaryen were a pleasant surprise. Despite what I just said, I actually like Alyssa's death because:
1) She is an older women and her age is brought within the story as a reason for the difficult childbirth, so her death doesn't come out of the left field.
2) Childbirth difficulty was not used here as simply a reason to get rid of her, but also to built tension between her daughter Rhaena and her husband Rogar. Her death clearly affected them both gravely and in a different way. This contrast with Aemma's case where we never hear about someone missing her or remembering her, not even from her widowed husband Viserys who quickly remarried, or her daughter Rhaenyra. We have only one link between Aemma and Rhaenyra really, that is the Arryn sigil depicted in Rhaenyra's personal arms. And I suspect it was done more to gain favor from Jeyne Arryn than for Aemma's sake.

Jonquil Darke was a cool new character, except we don't know when and how she died. Did she ever had to do something to protect Alysanne ? That would have been a cool thing to read about. There is a build up for Fire & Blood 2 with Alys Rivers, Samantha Tarly-Hightower, and to some extent Elenda Caron-Baratheon and Johanna Westerling-Lannister. Rhaena and Baela are a welcome presence at Aegon's court. So hopefully those ladies will have their time to shine in F&B 2.

I agree with you about Alyssa Velaryon. I saw some people complain that she was “fridged” for the sake of Rogar’s villainy, but to me it appeared much more likely that her death was used to develop Rhaena’s character. The scene where she confronts Rogar is one of the best in the book.

The underdevelopment of Jocelyn was disappointing, especially considering the line about how she surprised everyone by surviving her first year, just like she continued to “surprise people all her life” (paraphrasing). 

I think it was overkill (no pun intended) for both Daella and Alyssa to die in childbirth. Daella’s death had a big narrative purpose, but Alyssa’s just felt like it was thrown in there to get rid of her. She was described as high-spirited and daring; it would have been more satisfying for her to die in some kind of accident, maybe involving the dragons. Hell, they could have had Alyssa die in a horse race and have Viserra die in a shipwreck on her way to White Harbor. That would have really hit home just how badly Viserra’s parents screwed her over, and emphasized Alysanne’s guilt and desire to bring Saera home.

Aemma Arryn seems to have existed solely to give birth to Rhaenyra, then die in time for Viserys to remarry Alicent. She was definitely fridged, but at least we’re told she had a fairly happy life.

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14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree with you about Alyssa Velaryon. I saw some people complain that she was “fridged” for the sake of Rogar’s villainy, but to me it appeared much more likely that her death was used to develop Rhaena’s character. The scene where she confronts Rogar is one of the best in the book.

The underdevelopment of Jocelyn was disappointing, especially considering the line about how she surprised everyone by surviving her first year, just like she continued to “surprise people all her life” (paraphrasing). 

I think it was overkill (no pun intended) for both Daella and Alyssa to die in childbirth. Daella’s death had a big narrative purpose, but Alyssa’s just felt like it was thrown in there to get rid of her. She was described as high-spirited and daring; it would have been more satisfying for her to die in some kind of accident, maybe involving the dragons. Hell, they could have had Alyssa die in a horse race and have Viserra die in a shipwreck on her way to White Harbor. That would have really hit home just how badly Viserra’s parents screwed her over, and emphasized Alysanne’s guilt and desire to bring Saera home.

Aemma Arryn seems to have existed solely to give birth to Rhaenyra, then die in time for Viserys to remarry Alicent. She was definitely fridged, but at least we’re told she had a fairly happy life.

was there any indication that Alyssane and Jaeherys felt responsible for Vissera's death? I remember there was Baelon feeling guilty for rejecting her harshly but nothing else...

 

and Bard , regarding Rhaenys and Aemon , have you watched Preston Jackob's Overanalyzing the Dance series? 

Edited by EggBlue
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2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

was there any indication that Alyssane and Jaeherys felt responsible for Vissera's death? I remember there was Baelon feeling guilty for rejecting her harshly but nothing else...

We’re told that Alysanne was devastated, but I guess it wasn’t technically confirmed that she also felt responsible. We’re told she blamed herself for Daella’s death and most of her newborns though, so I don’t think it’s out of character for her.

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

thinking about Aegon's prophecy about the white walkers which seems to come from Martin and be book canon (because otherwise it's utterly stupid in show universe).... I think Rhaenys must have known about the prophecy and it could be an explanation of her actions (or inaction) throughout Viserys's reign . Aemon was heir for years and it seemed as if he treated her as his own heir (probably for years, considering she didn't  have any siblings for 16 yrs) . so , it's more than possible that he had shared the Targ secret with her . this could explain why she did not do anything against Viserys despite (at one point) having 3 dragons, including Vhaegar, and the biggest navy in Westeros against Viserys's Syrax . 

I think it may be much even in Westeros to assume everyone is just biding their time to become usurpers.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s no point in introducing Aegon unless he proves a formidable opponent for Dany. Cersei already has the Sparrows, Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, and the entirety of the North to contend with. She doesn’t need a new enemy to tide her over until Dany arrives.

I feel like, unfortunately, I can rather handily show why the hopes for Aegon playing a big role isn't going to happen.

Martin is determined to finish the series in 7 books.

Ergo, even if they're 1000 odd pages, there's not enough room for Aegon to become a big player. Besides, I think people are forgetting that Aegon is not Daemon Blackfyre.

He's Tommen.

Jon Connington is the actual threat and his generals because Aegon is a deluded child whose life is a tragedy because he's been set up as a puppet and will undoubtedly die before he reaches adulthood.

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12 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Now that you mentioned it, I almost wish Elia Martell was alive, so that Aegon can have the same epic death as False Dmitry. If Aegon indeed is fake.

My guess is that Tommen, Margaery and her cousins, perhaps Myrcella, will all be brutally murdered by Aegon and Arianne's supporters.  There will be those who see that as just retribution for the deaths of Elia, her children, and Prince Oberyn.  But, in turn, their relatives and followers will want retribution, and ally with Daenerys for that reason.

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40 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like, unfortunately, I can rather handily show why the hopes for Aegon playing a big role isn't going to happen.

Martin is determined to finish the series in 7 books.

Ergo, even if they're 1000 odd pages, there's not enough room for Aegon to become a big player. Besides, I think people are forgetting that Aegon is not Daemon Blackfyre.

He's Tommen.

Jon Connington is the actual threat and his generals because Aegon is a deluded child whose life is a tragedy because he's been set up as a puppet and will undoubtedly die before he reaches adulthood.

Not to mention Jon will likely get a number of people infected with greyscale so he's a threat too.

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1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like, unfortunately, I can rather handily show why the hopes for Aegon playing a big role isn't going to happen.

Martin is determined to finish the series in 7 books.

Ergo, even if they're 1000 odd pages, there's not enough room for Aegon to become a big player. Besides, I think people are forgetting that Aegon is not Daemon Blackfyre.

He's Tommen.

Jon Connington is the actual threat and his generals because Aegon is a deluded child whose life is a tragedy because he's been set up as a puppet and will undoubtedly die before he reaches adulthood.

There’s a very simple explanation for this: he’s not finishing the series in only two more books.

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New promotional video for HOTD with GRRM:

 
New shots:
  • Viserys with his hand over candles (we have already seen a still of that scene but not the scene itself) (0m5s)
  • Prolonged shot of Rhaenyra riding Syrax over the Red Keep. It is a nice detail to see the birds scatter from the roof of the Red Keep as Syrax approaches. (0m16s)
  • Maesters bringing the ballot box to Jaehaerys I at Harrenhal (1m1s)
  • Viserys with Aemma Arryn (I'm guessing this is at Harrenhal) (1m22s)
  • Ser Harrold Westerling escorting Alicent Hightower's wheelhouse in the streets of King's Landing (4m6s)
  • Rhaenyra's ceremony to become heir (5m11s)
Trivia:
  • Still no name for Otto Hightower's older brother, he remains "Lord Hightower".
  • House Velaryon confirmed to have been a seafarer family important for the trade and commerce of Old Valyria.
Edited by Thomaerys Velaryon
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10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

He did turn fully on the Green side when Aegon II was widowed and an opportunity and ended up paying for that with his life but he was way-way down on the list of enemies Rhaenyra made.

I don't think that's very convincing. The Baratheons were expected to side with the Blacks because of Boremund Baratheon, so even without the Luke incident this was a pretty big betrayal.

And even for the Greens - Aemond made that betrothal, but no help was coming when the Greens needed it. Not during the campaigns in the Crownlands, nor when Aemond was marching against Harrenhal, depleting the protection of KL in the process.

For somebody making such a crucial deal this early in the war Borros is absent far too long. And it is pretty unrealistic that neither side would approach nor that he himself actually could hide behind some Vulture King.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think it doesn't require a deep reading that Aemond, an honorless cur, didn't intend to honor the agreement he made once he got what he wanted out of it.

But he didn't get anything, no? And he presumably intended to go through with the marriage until he met Alys Rivers at Harrenhal.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Corys being protective of his children is something that, of course, leads to his own defection. So it's not like he's going to betray them since they're the hope of House Velaryon's survival.

I don't think Corlys ever defects to the Green side. He just kind of ends up there because let him out of the dungeon. Alyn - who actually controls the navy of Driftmark in Corlys' absence - had to be blackmailed into helping Aegon II as has Corlys himself.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

But Corys clearly values his alliance with the Targaryens over his blood while Rhaenys is someone who will want her actual grandchildren on the Iron Throne.

It seems that Rhaenys is more pissed about people overlooking the claims of her granddaughters through her daughter than the true parentage of her grandsons. She points out that if Laenor's sons all were bastards that then Baela and Rhaena were next in line to inherit Driftmark, not Vaemond Velaryon (regardless whether he is Corlys' brother or nephew).

And the idea that their biological granddaughters should be passed over while a mere legal grandson inherits is kind of weird, especially if incestuous and close kin marriages are quite common in your clan. It is kind of obvious that you would go with such a matches then. The book has Rhaenyra and Laena arrange them early, but it certainly makes sense that the show does it at a point when the succession of Corlys is discussed. Although, technically, Corlys should have named a new heir after both Laena and Laenor had died. He was an old man already, after all.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I admit I like that Aegon wasn't initially all that into being the King but quickly developed a nasty entitled personality after being crowned that took everyone by surprise. They had been so eager to crown him king that they never stopped to think if he should be.

In the book it seems clear that Eustace's story that he said he didn't want to steal his sister's birthright must be nonsense. Aegon would have never thought it was Rhaenyra's birthright to be queen. Alicent and the other Greens would have made sure of that, at least.

But nobody but his mother and, perhaps, his grandfather would have even told him that he could be king one day, so he never expected it and was not prepared for it. It makes sense that he would not want to be king at first - kinda like Trump was surprised that he actually won the election.

That quickly changed as his insistence to be crowned and his unwillingness to compromise show. It is clear, though, that this is more stupidity speaking then him understanding what's going on. One of my favorite scenes with the young Aegon II is when he has no clue what to tell the traders and merchants in the wake of the Velaryon blockade of Blackwater Bay. He has no clear concept what his coronation meant, nor does he have any clear understanding what war means.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

If I had any sympathy for Alicent through the battle, I lost it when she planned to cut up Aegon III.

Well, she is a kind of freak at that point.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, over in another thread we just talked about how Jhaereys never really made any attempt to add polygamy to the exceptionalism doctrine and flat out ignored it when his daughter suggested it.

Yes, but these guys couldn't care less what old Jaehaerys said or did. He convened a Great Council to settle his own succession, they start a bloody war.

The younger generation are mostly male, so there are no marriages possible there, which would leave room for setting aside certain marriage or adding new spouses.

I mean, that is certainly better than Corlys' ridiculous Aegon-Jaehaera match in 130 AC when neither is the heir and Jaehaera is missing in action, possibly dead.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Rhaenyra has sons to pass the Iron Throne down to already and Daemon seems fairly okay with his stepsons in a way that Aegon would not be passing his crown to "bastards."

They could easily resolve that, too, by declaring that, in the case of a Rhaenyra-Aegon marriage, only the children they have together will be the heirs of their joint rule. Rhaenyra's older boys and Helaena's children could be included in dynastic marriages to a degree, but they would not succeed to the throne.

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4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s no point in introducing Aegon unless he proves a formidable opponent for Dany. 

Plus, if Aegon marries Arianne, as has been widely speculated, and they become King/Queen together, it will be important for Doran's arc. Given that he only had failures until this point, I feel like he needs some kind of success in order to justify being a part of this story.

I think we're getting a bit off topic here, though.

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2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

thinking about Aegon's prophecy about the white walkers which seems to come from Martin and be book canon (because otherwise it's utterly stupid in show universe).... I think Rhaenys must have known about the prophecy and it could be an explanation of her actions (or inaction) throughout Viserys's reign . Aemon was heir for years and it seemed as if he treated her as his own heir (probably for years, considering she didn't  have any siblings for 16 yrs) . so , it's more than possible that he had shared the Targ secret with her . this could explain why she did not do anything against Viserys despite (at one point) having 3 dragons, including Vhaegar, and the biggest navy in Westeros against Viserys's Syrax . 

That would have to be something the show has to allude to. They might do that ... or not. I'm rather intrigued how often they are going to reference Rhaenys' father Aemon and the fact that she was actually the only child of Jaehaerys' eldest son.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think she also probably figured it was a lost cause at that point.

The only way it makes sense is by assuming Corlys and Rhaenys are nice people. The show seems to be smart enough to have Laena only mount Vhagar after Viserys' second marriage, so the king is not so stupid as to spurn Vhagar's rider.

In the book, though, Laena is already Vhagar's rider when she is considered as Viserys' second wife, meaning we have a scenario where Viserys is dragonless, Rhaenyra is still a young girl, and Daemon has left court in the wake of Rhaenyra being made Heir Apparent ... while the Velaryons control two gigantic and one growing dragon between them. It is pretty clear who has the real power in that scenario.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The part about being Aemon’s acknowledged heir is also a good point. I’m guessing that the reason Jaehaerys never cared about succession until after Aemon had died was because he just figured that Aemon would take care of it once he was king. I’m not sure whether he planned on naming Rhaenys or his first grandson as his heir, but there’s no indication he planned on skipping over her line. I wonder how he would feel about his father and brother depriving his daughter of her inheritance.

While there is clearly a hint that Aemon wanted to keep a pregnant Rhaenys out of martial business ... if he had ever thought that Baelon or his sons would succeed him as king, it makes no sense at all that he didn't arrange a marriage between Rhaenys and Viserys then. Or perhaps even more fitting - a marriage between Rhaenys and the widowed Baelon.

Once it became clear that Rhaenys would be marrying Corlys, i.e. a guy outside the immediate family, they would be Aemon's immediate heirs ... and there would be just no chance that a King Aemon could put his brother and his sons before his own daughter and his own grandsons.

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like, unfortunately, I can rather handily show why the hopes for Aegon playing a big role isn't going to happen.

Martin is determined to finish the series in 7 books.

That is a non-argument. He wants to finish the series in seven books, but he isn't determined to do so. If he was determined, Daenerys would already be in Westeros at that point, and the Wall would have fallen at the end of ADwD.

You cannot downplay any current plotline with the 'there are only supposed to be seven books' thing. Can Sansa still marry Harry the Heir in seven books? And do anything else? Can Arya finish her training, can Bran leave his cave, will Dany even get to Vaes Dothrak in seven books (much less out of there)?

We just don't know.

However, Aegon and Euron clearly are very crucial plot elements at this point. Euron is a real monster and Aegon is the only true rival to Dany's claim - none of the Baratheon pretenders (real or false) could really challenge a Targaryen pretender with dragons at that point (most definitely not young children). But Aegon has a decent enough chance to try. And he could even become a dragonrider himself, if one of Dany's dragons is riderless when they arrive in Westeros ... or loses his rider somehow.

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