Jump to content

House of the Dragon Flood Gates Open


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well I guess that would put Dunk and Egg on the backburner.

I think DnE would be okay, since it’s really only one Targaryen for most of it. But right now it would be a bit of a risky investment since there are only three stories available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: Blood and Cheese

When the Dark Tower movie was coming out, I had one statement to all of my friends. "There's a thing GRR Martin asked D&D before they adapted his books to test to see if they understood the material [whether L+R=J]. For the Dark Tower, I feel the same way. If Roland doesn't abandon a child to die then he's not Roland. It is the moment that we understand his character. That he is not a hero, that he a fanatic, and he becomes one of the most interesting characters in fiction. If they keep this moment, they will understand the series and the audience will want this movie."

Narrator: They did not keep this moment.

For House of the Dragon to work, they need Daemon to straight up want a child murdered to gain revenge for his stepson. I worry about them losing the "meat" of the characters and what make them entertaining by trying to make them likable. If Jaime didn't throw Bran off the Tower.

I feel like we need the darkest moments of Rhaenyra and Daemon to make them characters who stand out in the stage. Which is why I am hoping they keep Mushroom's idea about the torture of ALicent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Re: Blood and Cheese

When the Dark Tower movie was coming out, I had one statement to all of my friends. "There's a thing GRR Martin asked D&D before they adapted his books to test to see if they understood the material [whether L+R=J]. For the Dark Tower, I feel the same way. If Roland doesn't abandon a child to die then he's not Roland. It is the moment that we understand his character. That he is not a hero, that he a fanatic, and he becomes one of the most interesting characters in fiction. If they keep this moment, they will understand the series and the audience will want this movie."

Narrator: They did not keep this moment.

For House of the Dragon to work, they need Daemon to straight up want a child murdered to gain revenge for his stepson. I worry about them losing the "meat" of the characters and what make them entertaining by trying to make them likable. If Jaime didn't throw Bran off the Tower.

I feel like we need the darkest moments of Rhaenyra and Daemon to make them characters who stand out in the stage. Which is why I am hoping they keep Mushroom's idea about the torture of ALicent.

Forcing Alicent to work in a brothel seems like jumping the shark to me.  Just unbelievable.  There’s more than enough dark material in the tale,  without having to go there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Forcing Alicent to work in a brothel seems like jumping the shark to me.  Just unbelievable.  There’s more than enough dark material in the tale,  without having to go there.

Probably.

It would definitely be a moment of no return for Rhaenyra even if they only implied it like the Mountain and the Septon on Cersei's command.

So as much as I want them to keep the edge this would be the place I'd cut it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/28/2022 at 4:13 PM, Lord Varys said:

If it is this thing, then it is most definitely not 'heresy' but not that unlikely true in the books as well, although a kind of secret knowledge folks have yet to actually discuss in the books. Even more so since it might actually be 'lost knowledge' in the books due to the Dance and the subsequent boy king.

The idea that

  Reveal hidden contents

Aegon and his sister-wives just conquered Westeros on a whim or because of great political ambitions never was very convincing. Although huge, the continent was a bunch of savage backwater kingdoms. The Free Cities or Essos in general would have been a much sweeter prize for the only remaining dragonlord dynasty.

 

 

On 7/28/2022 at 5:32 PM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But the fact that GRRM has talked about it has more weight, IMO.

im confused, isnt this just Azor Ahai. Egg and all his brothers had the same dream, Blood Raven as well. So it isnt like this is sprung out of nowhere. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

when it comes to "the thing" in the first episode 

 

Spoiler

There is a  youtuber who claims to have seen the first episode and that Viserys  sees Dany in his dream and assumes its Rhaenyra. The dream is like Bran's. With a dragon flying over snow towards an army of white walkers.  but youtubers lie and there are thousands of them with claims. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

im confused, isnt this just Azor Ahai. Egg and all his brothers had the same dream, Blood Raven as well. So it isnt like this is sprung out of nowhere. 

The version that Egg, Aemon and Rhaegar believed, the Prince Who Was Promised has nothing to do with White Walkers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

"really sad emo king and his shitty regents."

Melancholy princes have been very popular since the days of Shakespeare, at the least.

The in-fighting and skullduggery of the regency is a plus for dramatization. The way the regency ends is also pretty dramatic. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is the show adaptation more grimdark or schlocky though?

The show didn't adapt The Witcher books (that's why you can't compare the show and books). The show took the names of places and characters and made their own (read craptastic) story out of it. In S1 they at least took some book material here and there but that's gone by S2. And S2 was already a lot less popular than S1, despite what the Netflix 'numbers' have you believe.

Edited by Mystical
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Re: Blood and Cheese

When the Dark Tower movie was coming out, I had one statement to all of my friends. "There's a thing GRR Martin asked D&D before they adapted his books to test to see if they understood the material [whether L+R=J]. For the Dark Tower, I feel the same way. If Roland doesn't abandon a child to die then he's not Roland. It is the moment that we understand his character. That he is not a hero, that he a fanatic, and he becomes one of the most interesting characters in fiction. If they keep this moment, they will understand the series and the audience will want this movie."

Narrator: They did not keep this moment.

I don't think the plot nor the characters of the Dark Tower series are internally consistent, so that's a very bad example for that kind of thing.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

For House of the Dragon to work, they need Daemon to straight up want a child murdered to gain revenge for his stepson. I worry about them losing the "meat" of the characters and what make them entertaining by trying to make them likable. If Jaime didn't throw Bran off the Tower.

They are going to create Daemon the character, George just created Daemon the historical figure. They certainly are free to make Daemon the character about Daemon the guy who wants to kill Aemond's nephew to avenge Daemon's stepson ... but that isn't even a thing for Daemon the historical figure. He arranged a revenge plot, but the history makes it clear that it is not understood who the original target was ... and it is pretty much implied that Blood and Cheese decided on their own to target Helaena and the children because they were the ones they could actually get to very easily.

Jaime trying to kill Bran does make sense. He is a danger to him, his sister-lover, and their children ... but Helaena and her children are neither Daemon's enemies nor a danger to him or Rhaenyra or their children. And while the guy has a dark side, it strikes me as very odd that he would actually want anyone to target them to get revenge on Aemond.

I mean, they are not going to be as stupid as to not assume that this was Aemond's payback for the loss of his eye ... nor does Daemon's later killing of Aemond imply he doesn't understand this.

10 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like we need the darkest moments of Rhaenyra and Daemon to make them characters who stand out in the stage. Which is why I am hoping they keep Mushroom's idea about the torture of ALicent.

I don't think we are going to get mass rapes of women in brothels in that show in any scenario, much less in a scenario where Rhaenyra commands this to be done to a half-sister she has literally no quarrel with nor to Alicent who was once her best friend. That is not something this show is going to do.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

im confused, isnt this just Azor Ahai. Egg and all his brothers had the same dream, Blood Raven as well. So it isnt like this is sprung out of nowhere. 

There are apparently people who really need something to be confirmed explicitly to consider it plausible or likely. There are also still people who think only Rhaegar believed in the prophecy about the promised prince, claiming his parents had nothing to do with his belief into that esoteric stuff, never mind that they themselves were forced to marry because their father believed in it, too.

So far we don't know what kind of prophetic knowledge the early Targaryen kings had ... but do know that Aenar the Exile left Valyria because of a prophetic dream his daughter had, and we do know that the people believed that Visenya and Rhaena practiced sorcery. And we do know that by the time of Dunk & Egg there were multiple Targaryens and some Blackfyres who believed in prophecy and practiced magic and made crucial decisions on the basis of both.

Thus it is actually quite ridiculous to assume that Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives were not also, in part, motivated by magic and dreams and prophecies.

If that is the case, though, then George is subtle about this and intends to explore this plot only as he reveals the exact meaning and origins of the promised prince prophecy in the book series. This is clearly not something he wants to explore in history books.

3 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

when it comes to "the thing" in the first episode

  Hide contents

There is a  youtuber who claims to have seen the first episode and that Viserys  sees Dany in his dream and assumes its Rhaenyra. The dream is like Bran's. With a dragon flying over snow towards an army of white walkers.  but youtubers lie and there are thousands of them with claims. 

So far that's not part of any leaks that I'm aware of ... Viserys I supposedly dreamed about a son of his being crowned king with the crown of Aegon the Conqueror. Viserys confusing his own daughter with Daenerys in a dream would be kind of weird - not only looks Syrax much different than Drogon, but inbreeding or not - Dany and Rhaenyra do not look identitcal.

Edited by Lord Varys
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think the plot nor the characters of the Dark Tower series are internally consistent, so that's a very bad example for that kind of thing.

They are going to create Daemon the character, George just created Daemon the historical figure. They certainly are free to make Daemon the character about Daemon the guy who wants to marry Aemond's nephew to avenge Daemon's stepson ... but that isn't even a thing for Daemon the historical figure. He arranged a revenge plot, but the history makes it clear that it is not understood who the original target was ... and it is pretty much implied that Blood and Cheese decided on their own to target Helaena and the children because they were the ones they could actually get to very easily.

Jaime trying to kill Bran does make sense. He is a danger to him, his sister-lover, and their children ... but Helaena and her children are neither Daemon's enemies nor a danger to him or Rhaenyra or their children. And while the guy has a dark side, it strikes me as very odd that he would actually want anyone to target them to get revenge on Aemond.

I mean, they are not going to be as stupid as to not assume that this was Aemond's payback for the loss of his eye ... nor does Daemon's later killing of Aemond imply he doesn't understand this.

I don't think we are going to get mass rapes of women in brothels in that show in any scenario, much less in a scenario where Rhaenyra commands this to be done to a half-sister she has literally no quarrel with nor to Alicent who was once her best friend. That is not something this show is going to do.

There are apparently people who really need something to be confirmed explicitly to consider it plausible or likely. There are also still people who think only Rhaegar believed in the prophecy about the promised prince, claiming his parents had nothing to do with his belief into that esoteric stuff, never mind that they themselves were forced to marry because their father believed in it, too.

So far we don't know what kind of prophetic knowledge the early Targaryen kings had ... but do know that Aenar the Exile left Valyria because of a prophetic dream his daughter had, and we do know that the people believed that Visenya and Rhaena practiced sorcery. And we do know that by the time of Dunk & Egg there were multiple Targaryens and some Blackfyres who believed in prophecy and practiced magic and made crucial decisions on the basis of both.

Thus it is actually quite ridiculous to assume that Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives were not also, in part, motivated by magic and dreams and prophecies.

More Targaryans being into magic, dream and prophecies and Aegon The Conquerer knowing about the White Walkers 300 years before the start of series and acknowledging their presence beyond the Wall explicietly as their primary reason for being in Westeros to his family are very different things. This would be something everyone has been able to keep very quiet indeed, even while his descendants were at various times senile, drunk and whathaveyou and mistaken people for their own children, completely reliant of their not-Targaryans Hands and Regents, imparting all kinds of embarrassing secrets in Mushroom and the like, they were able to keep that secret and secret alone completely in the family throughout centuries of turmoil.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

I don't think the plot nor the characters of the Dark Tower series are internally consistent, so that's a very bad example for that kind of thing.

Okay, that is something I strongly disagree with as I think it's one of the great epics of the 20th century.

Quote

Jaime trying to kill Bran does make sense. He is a danger to him, his sister-lover, and their children ... but Helaena and her children are neither Daemon's enemies nor a danger to him or Rhaenyra or their children. And while the guy has a dark side, it strikes me as very odd that he would actually want anyone to target them to get revenge on Aemond.

I mean, it's a revenge murder for his wife's slain child. I feel like this is overthinking it.

Quote

I don't think we are going to get mass rapes of women in brothels in that show in any scenario, much less in a scenario where Rhaenyra commands this to be done to a half-sister she has literally no quarrel with nor to Alicent who was once her best friend. That is not something this show is going to do.

I was thinking more, "Rhaenyra is half insane and orders her dragged away and thrown into it with her sister" ala off camera but probably not.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Retcons are not necessarily bad. But when they are, as it seems like the route GRRM is going for the motivation behind Aegon's conquest, they really ruin everything. There only few things that can be worse than bad retcons.

Edited by Mithras
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

More Targaryans being into magic, dream and prophecies and Aegon The Conquerer knowing about the White Walkers 300 years before the start of series and acknowledging their presence beyond the Wall explicietly are very different things. This would be something everyone has been able to keep very quiet indeed, even while his descendants were at various times senile, drunk and whathaveyou and mistaken people for their own children, completely reliant of their not-Targaryans Hands and Regents, imparting all kinds of embarrassing secrets in Mushroom and the like, they were able to keep that secret and secret alone completely in the family throughout centuries of turmoil.

I expect that's too hard of a reading of those leaks. On the basis of dreams and prophecy, Aegon would have believed that there was something going on north of the Wall, something he and/or his descendants would have to deal with eventually. Aegon concluded that this savage Westeros had to be unified if it were to stand a chance against this threat.

There is nothing in the books contradicting this, nor anything that would make this unlikely. Especially not if we imagine it wasn't passed down unaltered to Aerys II but rather lost and partially regained overtime. In the Dunk & Egg era it is pretty much implied that the promised prince prophecy was lost and just recently been rediscovered by King Aerys I.

HOTD could easily enough depict how Rhaenyra and Daemon fail to tell Aegon III about this.

That popular histories written by maesters don't talk about the mad magical beliefs of some members of the Targaryen dynasty, especially not histories who effectively glossed over the reign of Conqueror as well as the reign of Viserys I or most of Jaehaerys' reign (which could included multiple visits to Wall during his later reign), is hardly surprising.

Nor is it surprising that even the Targaryens who believed in the Others - or at least in 'some evil threat in the far north' - wouldn't talk about that often in public. Nobody believes in the Others anymore, so a Targaryen saying that he did would make only make himself into a laughingstock ... especially a king who admitted to his advisers that his political decisions hinge on his superstitious beliefs.

8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Okay, that is something I strongly disagree with as I think it's one of the great epics of the 20th century.

Oh, I like the Dark Tower, too ... I just don't think Roland as a character is internally consistent throughout the series. I certainly agree that an adaptation of the first book would have to include that core element ... but an adaptation of the entire series would have to get it straight why exactly Rolands looks for the Tower and, more importantly, how exactly reality is in danger and how important is it that he gets there. This has to be done both for the internal consistency of the character and his motivations and the consistency of the fictional universe.

8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, it's a revenge murder for his wife's slain child. I feel like this is overthinking it.

If they have Daemon arbitrarily decide to murder one of Aegon's kids for Luke's murder ... then the guy would become a clear villain. Blood and Cheese is the most horrible deed during the entire war ... and it doesn't seem as if they want to go with Daemon being a monster.

8 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I was thinking more, "Rhaenyra is half insane and orders her dragged away and thrown into it with her sister" ala off camera but probably not.

We won't get characters who are 'half-insane' in that show, either. Angry and furious, yes, but not half-mad and rambling. At least I hope that's not where they are going.

Helaena might become 'mad' in a more conventional sense, but I guess that will be a result of her having so many bad prophetic dreams that she ends up being unable to differentiate between reality and dream. As things go from bad to worse they might even model her in part on Cassandra, being unable to convince Aegon, Rhaenyra, etc. what's going to happen. I'm especially thinking about the Storming of the Dragonpit there, but also the death of Maelor, Rhaenyra's own death, etc.

17 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Retcons are not necessarily bad. But when they are, as it seems like the route GRRM is going for the motivation behind Aegon's conquest, they really ruin everything. There only few things that can be worse than bad retcons.

There is no indication that this would be a retcon. Instead this fits pretty well with the whole promised prince stuff. It was always kind of ridiculous why smart Rhaegar should have thought this ancient shit was (1) relevant at all, and (2) relevant for his own life and the lives of his children. Only if his entire family was obsessed with stuff like that since the Doom of Valyria does it really make sense he would feel this was his cup of tea, too. The guy was always dutiful, so he must have felt it was his duty to believe in prophetic shenanigans, too.

In fact, only if Aenar and Aegon I thought in such categories would it make sense that their distant descendants continue to think in such categories - they were the reason why they were stuck on Dragonstone and eventually in Westeros, so they would feel they had to continue in their footsteps.

If just weirdo kings like Baelor or Aerys I and Aerys II had believed in prophecy and magic then the less insane Targaryens would have shrugged that stuff off, and continued to be guided by sanity and rationality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I expect that's too hard of a reading of those leaks. On the basis of dreams and prophecy, Aegon would have believed that there was something going on north of the Wall, something he and/or his descendants would have to deal with eventually. Aegon concluded that this savage Westeros had to be unified if it were to stand a chance against this threat.

There is nothing in the books contradicting this, nor anything that would make this unlikely. Especially not if we imagine it wasn't passed down unaltered to Aerys II but rather lost and partially regained overtime. In the Dunk & Egg era it is pretty much implied that the promised prince prophecy was lost and just recently been rediscovered by King Aerys I.

HOTD could easily enough depict how Rhaenyra and Daemon fail to tell Aegon III about this.

That popular histories written by maesters don't talk about the mad magical beliefs of some members of the Targaryen dynasty, especially not histories who effectively glossed over the reign of Conqueror as well as the reign of Viserys I or most of Jaehaerys' reign (which could included multiple visits to Wall during his later reign), is hardly surprising.

You'd have to accept that Maegor The Cruel on this point alone really cared what people including each and everyone of his wives thought of him. Or on this point alone, historians worked quite hard to spare his image. Cause if anyone beside Aegon I knew this stuff, it can't have passed him by.

The only visit of the Wall by a dragon mentioned in A Song of Ice And Fire is the only visit mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire and the only visit mentioned in Fire And Blood. It is by Alysanne alone, when the Queensgate got it's name. I think the hour is pretty late to introduce multiple visits to the Wall in Jaehaerys I's and/or Viserys I's reign to establish a keen interest in the goings-on up north by the earlier Targaryans in general at this point, that would definitely feel like a retcon.

Edited by Denam_Pavel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Denam_Pavel said:

The version that Egg, Aemon and Rhaegar believed, the Prince Who Was Promised has nothing to do with White Walkers.

Im talking about the prophetic dream of the red comet and  "shadows over snow."  That could refer to the walkers or dragons fighting the walkers.  if all of Maekor's sons had that dream, then it doesnt seem like its unknown to House Targaryen 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, dsjj251 said:

Im talking about the prophetic dream of the red comet and  "shadows over snow."  That could refer to the walkers or dragons fighting the walkers.  if all of Maekor's sons had that dream, then it doesnt seem like its unknown to House Targaryen 

See that's fine with me. Talk of shadows over snow wouldn't make anyone feel these leaks are herecy. I'm worried they'll go quite a bit further then that to give the threat beyond the Wall a part in this story.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Retcons are not necessarily bad. But when they are, as it seems like the route GRRM is going for the motivation behind Aegon's conquest, they really ruin everything. There only few things that can be worse than bad retcons.

But again, we don't know for sure if it is a retcon or if it's something GRRM has planned for a long time. I'm not a fan of the idea either, but maybe he knows where he's going with it.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

You'd have to accept that Maegor The Cruel on this point alone really cared what people including each and everyone of his wives thought of him. Or on this point alone, historians worked quite hard to spare his image. Cause if anyone beside Aegon I knew this stuff, it can't have passed him by.

Maegor was a usurper. Could be his mother knew and she may have told him ... or not, we don't know.

Jaehaerys could easily enough have learned the truth from his mother who was there when his father Aenys died and who he may have told so that she could pass the knowledge on to his heir Aegon who was far away at that point. Visenya could also have told Jaehaerys considering he was there on Dragonstone when she died.

24 minutes ago, Denam_Pavel said:

The only visit of the Wall by a dragon mentioned in A Song of Ice And Fire is the only visit mentioned in The World of Ice and Fire and the only visit mentioned in Fire And Blood. It is by Alysanne alone, when the Queensgate got it's name. I think the hour is pretty late to introduce multiple visits to the Wall in Jaehaerys I's and or Viserys I's reign at this point, that would definitely feel like a retcon.

Jaehaerys I supposedly also visited the Wall as per the stories we get in ASoS.

But one has to keep in mind that the Targaryens are under no obligation to think the Watch or the Wall are *that important* just because there is a threat beyond the Wall they are destined to take care of. The point of unified Westeros kind of is that you no longer need a Night's Watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...