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11 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Anyways, George is being kinda disrespectful by throwing D&D under the bus again. 
 

He did not have to be part of the production, that was D&D’s choice. And he was the one who left them out dry with his pathetic excuses for not finishing the books. 
 

Letting them receive all the abuse and then popping up now to insinuate it’s their fault his unrealistic suggestions were not implemented means no one should trust this guy with anything. Completely unprofessional.

I would pick George over D&D any day of the week, but I do think the Ds would have tried to adapt the books all the way through if the series was finished on time. In that sense, they were put in a tough position. Even though I don’t particularly like either of them, the vitriol they got for S8 was way over the top. As invested as we are in this series, at the end of the day, it is just a TV show.

Just thinking about how the prequel is about to be released, three years after the original show ended, and TWOW is still nowhere in sight. . . it hurts, man. I don’t want to lose faith, but it does feel silly to still expect the book at this point :frown5:

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2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

D&D would have run out of source material even if they adapted Feast and Dance into 2-3 seasons of TV, like GRRM wanted. Which is crazy.

I’m personally glad GOT wasn’t ten seasons. The extra seasons would still have been written by D&D. And while the cast may miss the money now, there’s no way they would have been willing to sign away over a decade over their lives for a show with year-round filming. They were all too high-profile at the time to throw away new opportunities for a show that had already been ongoing for years.

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33 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Ser…they abandoned the already printed books in season five. This had nothing to do with running out of finished material. Surely, you can’t be serious.

Look, seasons 5-8 were garbage and people have already admonished D&D. 
 

But Martin isn’t you or me. He had a business and personal relationship with HBO and the show runners. He had professional obligations that he simply chose to ignore. 
 

And when the show fell apart did he have the common decency to take some of the blame? No, instead he throws them under the bus time and time again. 
 

Whatever it’s worth the show made his books into an international phenomenon. Imagine if Rowling stopped writing Harry Potter after the films took off, do you think WB wouldn’t feel cheated? 
 

Martin signed on in 2005, 6 years later he had one book with no major progress outside of character development. The already sprawling story which would be impossible to film for TV was becoming more convoluted. 
 

And they stuck to his script, but by season 5 when they knew Martin couldn’t be relied upon were they seriously supposed to just adapt AFFC as is? It was a shitty position and he takes no responsibility. 
 

Even if you don’t think he should he is supposed to be in a professional relationship, not behaving in this pathetic gossipy manner. 

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34 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I would pick George over D&D any day of the week, but I do think the Ds would have tried to adapt the books all the way through if the series was finished on time. In that sense, they were put in a tough position. Even though I don’t particularly like either of them, the vitriol they got for S8 was way over the top. As invested as we are in this series, at the end of the day, it is just a TV show.

Just thinking about how the prequel is about to be released, three years after the original show ended, and TWOW is still nowhere in sight. . . it hurts, man. I don’t want to lose faith, but it does feel silly to still expect the book at this point :frown5:

Even if Martin was mad about how they weren’t able to pick up his pieces that is for them to hash out privately. 
 

Coming at them in this public fashion is embarrassing for everyone involved. Martin had said during the time the show was airing he quit because he needed to write TWOW and the changes were confusing. 
 

Now his story changes and it just “go ask D&D why”. And that butterfly affect wasn’t unusual, it was bound to happen. 
 

Martin looks like a soft teddy bear, a friendly Santa with a cute laugh. But he also acts like a bully from time to time. 
 

No person with a professional relationship in Hollywood would be given the pass he has been given to just drop his own series and then pretend like nothing happened.

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2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

To be fair, Rowling isn't a gardener writer like GRRM.

They both signed their own series to be adapted. These differences aren’t biological, if you commit to something then you have to see it through even if it’s outside your comfort zone. 
 

And really I don’t think his time dwelling on minuscule discrepancies has made his books any better, the faster he wrote the better they were.

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33 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Otto’s older brother is named “Hobert Hightower” - names repeat in dynasties.

Let's check if that makes sense - Ser Hobert is already sixty during the Dance, meaning he was born around 70 AC ... Lord Lyonel, Ormund's eldest son, is fifteen during the Dance, so we can reasonably calculate that Ormund died at the age of 35 or so. That would mean he was born in the mid-90s, which in turn could mean that Otto's brother was born around 70 AC.

But since Alicent herself was clearly born in the 80s AC, Otto himself must be born in the 60s rather than the 70s, even if we were to assume he married early and Alicent was his eldest child (neither is confirmed).

If we set the birth of Otto's brother around 60 AC he would be about ten years older than Ser Hobert ... but that would mean he wasn't really old enough to be named after a guy who likely wasn't the lord yet.

If they wanted to recycle names Martyn, Donnel, or Manfred would have worked better. The latter seems to have been quite popular. Eustace could have worked as well, if Eustace Hightower actually did succeed his grandfather after the Shivers took him.

I guess both could be named after a different Hobert, like Aegon II and Aegon III are both named after Aegon I.

Does anybody know if this this could be book canon as well?

49 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, @The Dragon Demands, how would you have adapted A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons?

Not being the guy, but I'd say faithfully and like LotR which would mean in roughly three seasons rather than one.

GoT was a success because of the substance matter - the quality of the books. The writing/scenes taking directly from George usually work, most original ideas of D&D suck, most expecially their original writing. Everybody adapting ASoIaF more or less faithfully having a huge budget at their disposal could have made this work. D&D kind of proved that, considering they didn't know how to make a TV show before they got the gig.

I mean, most of ASoIaF is so instense that you can literally take a chapter and just turn it into a movie or episode. You could take 'The Captain of Guards' from AFfC and turn it into a great (short) stageplay about sickness and sadness and grief and the desire for vengeance with minimal changes.

I think the one good idea they had was to have Ned inform Stannis about the twincest. That resolved some problems.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

GoT was a success because of the substance matter - the quality of the books.

The problem is that much of Feast and Dance isn't really suitable for a visual medium. Theon's arc in ADWD is perhaps the best example of this. The impact of those chapters doesn't come across on screen at all, because a lot of it is internal monologue.

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Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

The problem is that much of Feast and Dance isn't really suitable for a visual medium. Theon's arc in ADWD is perhaps the best example of this. The impact of those chapters doesn't come across on screen at all, because a lot of it is internal monologue.

You could work around that. There are ways to externalizes some of that. I mean, I'd have adapted Theon's arc up to the fall of Winterfell faithfully, and then included his transformation into Reek in the two ASoS seasons. That way we would understand what Theon had become when we reached AFfC/ADwD territory. There is sufficient material there - torture scenes, various attempts to escape, subsequent punishment, etc. And in context one could have moved around some events into the final ASoS season, anyway - the Kingsmoot, first view of Sunspear, and Ramsay's campaign against the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

The way to do that would be to show how is broken by prolonged torture. And one would then work in ADwD with visual clues and other subtle hints indicating that his true persona is still in there and might come out eventually.

But true enough, there is difficulty in the depiction of some aspects.

Other difficult aspects include the depiction of Bran. But this, too, could be dealt with by including his dreams, depicting them as scenes (especially the big dream during his coma) as well as have him talk things over with other people - Luwin, Osha, the Reeds.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You could work around that. There are ways to externalizes some of that. I mean, I'd have adapted Theon's arc up to the fall of Winterfell faithfully, and then included his transformation into Reek in the two ASoS seasons. That way we would understand what Theon had become when we reached AFfC/ADwD territory. There is sufficient material there - torture scenes, various attempts to escape, subsequent punishment, etc. And in context one could have moved around some events into the final ASoS season, anyway - the Kingsmoot, first view of Sunspear, and Ramsay's campaign against the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

The way to do that would be to show how is broken by prolonged torture. And one would then work in ADwD with visual clues and other subtle hints indicating that his true persona is still in there and might come out eventually.

But true enough, there is difficulty in the depiction of some aspects.

Other difficult aspects include the depiction of Bran. But this, too, could be dealt with by including his dreams, depicting them as scenes (especially the big dream during his coma) as well as have him talk things over with other people - Luwin, Osha, the Reeds.

They did include Theon's transformation into Reek into Season 3.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Just thinking about how the prequel is about to be released, three years after the original show ended, and TWOW is still nowhere in sight. . . it hurts, man.

Speaking of which, I just realized that I have a hard time explaining why Winds is taking so long to my friends outside of the ASOIAF bubble. I feel like they can be far less understanding than even the most frustrated fans.

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3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Huh, George’s statement about being “out of the loop” with D&D is really blowing up. It’s crazy just how many people there are with a vendetta against these guys.

I'd love to read an article/book/dissertation someday about why this fanbase is so uniquely unhinged, especially with regards to Benioff and Weiss. I find it alternatively fascinating and infuriating. 

We're probably gonna get scolded again for being off topic. 

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8 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

I'd love to read an article/book/dissertation someday about why this fanbase is so uniquely unhinged, especially with regards to Benioff and Weiss. I find it alternatively fascinating and infuriating. 

We're probably gonna get scolded again for being off topic. 

I mean, it's not remotely any weirder than other major franchises like Trek and Wars.

Also, D&D really did screw over a lot of actors and creative types beyond just the bad ending. They made a lot of questionable decisions even if kicking them while they're down is low hanging fruit.

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7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:


George did want them to fix that detail re: Aemon.

Must be really stuck in his craw if he wants them to change a detail that won't even be relevant to the upcoming spinoff. 

That said, there's really no reason you couldn't just make Aerys the fourth son of Aegon V and swap out Shaera for Rhaella. The generations are so compressed at that point, it wouldn't really make a difference. 

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