Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)

[Werthead]

21 hours ago, Firebrand Jace said:

It disappoints me how little imagination is tolerated in these pursuits. How GoT becomes the round hole every other shaped peg gets smashed into I'll never understand. Because "condense and cut this shit to get it done in 8" really worked out for GoT

The problems with GoT - bar the books being incomplete - were more that the showrunners decided to condense it into 8 seasons although they had the option to go longer and they also decided to go massively off-book and make their own stuff up despite having more book material to hand to adapt.

The problem with WoT is that a "faithful adaptation" is simply utterly impractical, if not outright impossible, because you can't plan for a series lasting for 14 seasons. And even if you did, you're still going to be condensing the hell out of stuff because you can't fit all of The Shadow Rising or A Memory of Light into 10 episodes, let alone 8.

So any TV adaptation of Wheel of Time was always going to be effectively a Cliff's Notes version of the story, because there is no other way of doing it. Unless we wait for 50 years and an AI can insta-create the 300-hour, ultra-faithful version out of thin air.

[IFR]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

So any TV adaptation of Wheel of Time was always going to be effectively a Cliff's Notes version of the story, because there is no other way of doing it. Unless we wait for 50 years and an AI can insta-create the 300-hour, ultra-faithful version out of thin air.

There can be some compromise. Books 1-3 range from 250k-300k words. Game of Thrones is 300k words and with 10 episodes a fairly faithful adaptation was made. 

Books 4-6 are 350k-400k words, so 15-33% longer. On the flip side, they are far more descriptive, and it is about this point that a lot of filler finds its way into the series. I bet these could be adapted pretty faithfully at 10 episodes per book, maybe even less.

Books 7-10 have excessive filler and are very plodding and meandering in the descriptions. These four books could probably be adapted in 10-13 episodes total. Maybe less.

Book 11 could probably be done in 8 episodes (again, even though relative to many of the previous books it has momentum, it's still a fairly slow book). Books 12-14 could probably be done in 18-20 episodes total.

So what is that? 101 episodes max? About 10 seasons of 10 episodes each. That's asking a lot of a live action series, but HBO likely would have been happy to see Game of Thrones to go on for 10 seasons. Of course, Game of Thrones had much greater talent behind it than The Wheel of Time show, and was much more popular.

But conceptually at least Wheel of Time could have been faithfully done as a live action show.

Wheel of Time probably would have been more suited to an animated adaptation though. So many elements that come off as incredibly silly in live action (the magic, Ogres and other creatures, etc.) would not look out of place animated. If Amazon had any artistic courage at all, this would be the approach they would have taken. 

Sadly, that is not the case. Instead we have to watch Judkins and his fellow writers embarrass themselves with this grosteque "interpretation" (although Dave Hill deserves credit for writing well outside the caliber of the show). Certainly there was no need to go the extreme that the writers did and in abridging the story create a show that is almost entirely original material.

Edited August 11, 2022 by IFR

[SpaceChampion]

All seasons so far are only 8 episodes each, as far as we've heard.  Though each episode in season 2 is longer than the first season.  Maybe they've gone the Stranger Things way and decided to just let them be as long as they need to be. 

[IFR]

11 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

All seasons so far are only 8 episodes each, as far as we've heard.  Though each episode in season 2 is longer than the first season.  Maybe they've gone the Stranger Things way and decided to just let them be as long as they need to be. 

I'm not sure if this was a reply to me or a general comment. In case of the former, yeah, at least for seasons 1 and 2 the episode count is 8.

I think The Eye of the World could be done in 8 episodes. It has the same word count as A Game of Thrones, but A Game of Thrones is more eventful. The problem is that the writers of WoT mostly just used the episodes allotted to them to focus on their original material.

People argue that it's because the writers are adapting the series as a whole and much of this stuff is establishing a foundation. But I feel that this is the key concept. The writers are establishing the foundation to a story that is largely a different, inferior reflection of the world in the books.

Really though, this isn't just on the creators. The Eye of the World would have worked better with 10 episodes. I mean, it's true that with these writers 2 additional episodes almost certainly wouldn't make a difference. I imagine they would have wasted time meandering about some random Aes Sedai's childhood, or delved into the greater workings of the Women's Circle, or something uninteresting like that. But in my comment I was addressing whether conceptually a faithful adaptation of WoT is possible. And with competent writers and a studio with any sense of artistic integrity, the answer is yes.

[fionwe1987]

I think the issue is not that the story is condensed. It is how it has been condensed. They did so in a way that fundamentally changes so many major characters that its hard to see how the themes and story arcs remaining will play out with any kind of fidelity to the original at all. They can probably keep the show going and even improve over S1 just if they work more on the sets, don’t have Covid restrictions hampering them, etc.

But if there’s a way for the plot to recover, I’m not sure this crew of writers is going to find it, or care to execute it. Their vision just seems fundamentally geared towards the big spectacle scenes in WoT (and the ability to add their own, I guess), and less concerned with the character arcs that made those scenes seem more earned than what we got in S1.

[Darryk]

So far my issues with the series are a) it looks fake, the production value doesn't seem that high for what the budget is b) bad dialogue c) I don't like the sidelining of Rand since he's my favorite character in the books and I believe his struggles with trauma is the heart of the books, but that's just a personal thing on my part.

I don't have much hope of these issues being resolved, why would these things change if it's the same showrunner?

[David Selig]

22 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I think the issue is not that the story is condensed. It is how it has been condensed. They did so in a way that fundamentally changes so many major characters that its hard to see how the themes and story arcs remaining will play out with any kind of fidelity to the original at all. They can probably keep the show going and even improve over S1 just if they work more on the sets, don’t have Covid restrictions hampering them, etc.

But if there’s a way for the plot to recover, I’m not sure this crew of writers is going to find it, or care to execute it. Their vision just seems fundamentally geared towards the big spectacle scenes in WoT (and the ability to add their own, I guess), and less concerned with the character arcs that made those scenes seem more earned than what we got in S1.

Exactly. Condensing was always inevitable, the problem is that it was done really poorly. So far the show has been a poor adaptation and a poor TV show, and that's largely because of the writing.

The writers' steadfast refusal to include more than a handful of lines from the original dialogue in the whole season even when the plot has remained unchanged or close enough for them to fit is also quite annoying. Jordan was no Shakespeare, but when it comes to dialogue, he was way better than the average TV writer these days (low bar, I know) and the writers on this show have been worse than average so far.

[IFR]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:13 AM, fionwe1987 said:

But if there’s a way for the plot to recover, I’m not sure this crew of writers is going to find it, or care to execute it. Their vision just seems fundamentally geared towards the big spectacle scenes in WoT (and the ability to add their own, I guess), and less concerned with the character arcs that made those scenes seem more earned than what we got in S1.

Yes, I agree. Especially after the last episode, which I think in numerous ways undermined the potential for the rest of the show. I'm not even sure decent writers could salvage things.

As far as I'm concerned the series is a failure. I do sometimes fantasize, though, that it will breed a video game spinoff that is good, however unlikely that may be. It would be a nice silver lining to be able to immerse oneself into the world of WoT.

[Poobah]

I was gonna write a whole long thing but it's too fucking hot in the UK, so I'll just say that for all it's missteps, and there are many decisions I disagreed with in the first season, I liked it well enough. And given that it's probably the only shot The Wheel of Time is going to get at a big TV adaptation I want it to succeed. Also I'll note that while I did not like some of the original scenes and changes, I thought that the episode opener with Logain and the king of Ghealdan was a fantastic, as were the scenes between Siuan and Moiraine. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by Poobah

[Myrddin]

I give the end of season one more leeway since there were Covid impacts (Matt MIA, changes to how actors could interact affecting how the battle was staged, etc). Season 2 will show us whether they heard feedback and were able to adjust (ie production values).

I still enjoyed season one. It just wasn't the stellar show I had hoped for.

[SpaceChampion]

 

 

[SpaceChampion]

 

[Corvinus85]

Please tell me they didn't give Mat's fight with Galad and Gawyn to Nynaeve.

[David Selig]

21 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Please tell me they didn't give Mat's fight with Galad and Gawyn to Nynaeve.

They didn't, the guy in this preview who fights Nynaeve is Maksim, one of Alanna's warders, the actor confirmed on social media.

[Corvinus85]

13 minutes ago, David Selig said:

They didn't, the guy in this preview who fights Nynaeve is Maksim, one of Alanna's warders, the actor confirmed on social media.

Thank you. Not sure what narrative purpose it serves either way, but it's good to know they didn't take away more from Mat, who desperately needs development.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Thank you. Not sure what narrative purpose it serves either way, but it's good to know they didn't take away more from Mat, who desperately needs development.

Nyn's on her way to becoming a blademaster, by the looks of it, if she's holding off two warders at the same time.

[SpaceChampion]

She's probably more blocked than ever now, and is using swordplay to work out her anger issues.

[Darryk]

20 minutes ago, Ran said:

Nyn's on her way to becoming a blademaster, by the looks of it, if she's holding off two warders at the same time.

So she'll be the most powerful female channeller (or probably just the most powerful channeller of both genders the way this show is going, cause who gives a naff about the Dragon Reborn) AND the bestest most amazing sword fighter.

Girl power FTW!

[Rhom]

17 hours ago, Argonath Diver said:

 Non-book readers could have a bunch of fun speculating on eventual darkfriend  and Black Ajah reveals. 

Why limit it to non book readers?  Hell Amazon could make Lan a dark friend if they wanted to be extra gritty.

[Argonath Diver]

I agree wholeheartedly! They already are having fun with a Tolkien adjacent 2nd age timeline. Why not mix it up in WoT-land! How about a friendly Trolloc and Nynaeve detective team? Whodunits are in this season.