Jump to content

Wheel of Time: The 2nd Turning (Book Spoilers Inclusive)


SpaceChampion
 Share

Recommended Posts

Yeah that would definitely have helped. We can only guess whether they didn't think to try that approach, still didn't think it would work or didn't have the money for it. 

I saw Daniel Green's response to it last night and while I don't love what they're currently doing between Lan and Moiraine I can at least understand it, but he seemed to interpret it completely differently

Spoiler

Like Moiraine is actually pissed at Lan. I don't like the antagonism because he deserves better, but it's entirely understandable as her trying to push him away to protect him - it's a mistake we see a lot from Rand in the books as well, and I think it makes sense to have his mentor (at least in some ways) making that same mistake herself. 

Where I thought he was completely misreading the scene is that Lan knows exactly what she's doing. His refusal of getting her dinner wasn't a childish tantrum, it's refusing to continue playing this game - it's just getting to him even though he knows what she's doing. And that's because she knows him well enough to know the buttons to push even when he knows why she's doing it.

I thought its pretty likely they're moving the Lan/Alanna stuff forwards considerably, probably because they won't have Moiraine "die" in the show and would need to have another reason to pass the bond anyway. No idea if this is going to work, it's too early to judge.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Well one way to give an ensemble cast equal screen time is to have them together, and their development can be done in parallel, which is what the books do, mainly The Great Hunt.

The book where the boys and girls separate early, then the girls get split up more?

I do miss the early meeting part in Fal Dara, but they definitely didn't have time for that. I do hope they spend considerable time in Tear before splitting up again for most of the series. 

3 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

And Moiraine is getting a lot of screen time because Rosamund Pike is the top billed actor, but Moiraine was always just a supporting character. Yes, it's good for supporting characters to shine and make them more rounded people that the audience can care for, but not at the expense of the development of the main characters.

Moiraine is a supporting character, but I'm just fine with an increased role for her.

But with her "gentled" this early, and the tensions with Lan (though she mentions the bond transfer in the one chapter she and Lan have in the book) they've closed the door to her arc in the later books. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I rewatched season 1 last week while sick which reinforced by initial opinion that she's just shielded by a tied off weave of saidin, not actually gentled. Everything we've seen from her in season 2 still fits that - she's not filled with despair, she seems to be bound by the oaths still, her attempts to reach the source during the attack looked a lot like trying to break through a shield rather than anything I'd expect someone actually gentled to act.

I think she's at least suspecting this after the first couple of episodes and the decision to travel to the tower is a test - if she's actually unable to go there then she will know she is absolutely still bound by the last oath she spoke which doesn't have the decades of psychological conditioning behind it which might interfere with lying.

I know you put gentled in quotes so you're not exactly committed to that being the case either, just spring boarding off it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I rewatched season 1 last week while sick which reinforced by initial opinion that she's just shielded by a tied off weave of saidin, not actually gentled. Everything we've seen from her in season 2 still fits that - she's not filled with despair, she seems to be bound by the oaths still, her attempts to reach the source during the attack looked a lot like trying to break through a shield rather than anything I'd expect someone actually gentled to act.

I think she's at least suspecting this after the first couple of episodes and the decision to travel to the tower is a test - if she's actually unable to go there then she will know she is absolutely still bound by the last oath she spoke which doesn't have the decades of psychological conditioning behind it which might interfere with lying.

I know you put gentled in quotes so you're not exactly committed to that being the case either, just spring boarding off it.

I was wondering if they are going to accelerating the timeline for Nynaeve figuring out how to heal gentling, and that she would do this on Moiraine. Though your idea that it's merely shielding, which I imagine Rand would undo this season or next, is probably correct.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I rewatched season 1 last week while sick which reinforced by initial opinion that she's just shielded by a tied off weave of saidin, not actually gentled.

Why, though? Why would Ishamael show her mercy? She's not powerful enough for him to want to turn her, and she's clearly someone set on fighting him. Why give her a chance to recover?

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Everything we've seen from her in season 2 still fits that - she's not filled with despair, she seems to be bound by the oaths still, her attempts to reach the source during the attack looked a lot like trying to break through a shield rather than anything I'd expect someone actually gentled to act.

You can feel the source when you're stilled. The weaves are even the same as shielding, for gentling, just sharper and heavier. And you always sense the source, it's just out of reach. There are multiple times Siuan tries to channel by instinct soon after she's stilled in the Books. 

In terms of behavior, she's doing what Siuan did: focus on a cause and keep working on it. That's what Adeleas and Verin discuss with Lan, too, and her sorrow when she's in the tub definitely reads more like stilling than a shield. A shield on its own doesn't leave you with that sense of desperate loss. 

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I think she's at least suspecting this after the first couple of episodes and the decision to travel to the tower is a test - if she's actually unable to go there then she will know she is absolutely still bound by the last oath she spoke which doesn't have the decades of psychological conditioning behind it which might interfere with lying.

Hmmm but the Aes Sedai have no idea the Oaths are ineffective after stilling. There's no way she'd be testing this. 

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I know you put gentled in quotes so you're not exactly committed to that being the case either, just spring boarding off it.

Yeah there's doubt, especially because it makes no sense for Nynaeve to discover how to heal stilling this early. 

That said, there is precedent from the books. Moghedien shields Liandrin and ties it off with a very complicated knot that she's sure Liandrin will never break through. It's functionally stilling.

Now, the fact that Lan didn't feel his bond with Moiraine snap is the best proof she's not stilled, based on the books. But there's no guarantee those rules made it to screen, and it's especially weird to have Ishamael just shield her. 

I suppose it could be argued his power was mostly focussed on Rand, but that just isn't a very satisfactory answer, to me. 

Edited by fionwe1987
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I rewatched season 1 last week while sick which reinforced by initial opinion that she's just shielded by a tied off weave of saidin, not actually gentled. Everything we've seen from her in season 2 still fits that - she's not filled with despair, she seems to be bound by the oaths still, her attempts to reach the source during the attack looked a lot like trying to break through a shield rather than anything I'd expect someone actually gentled to act.

I think she's at least suspecting this after the first couple of episodes and the decision to travel to the tower is a test - if she's actually unable to go there then she will know she is absolutely still bound by the last oath she spoke which doesn't have the decades of psychological conditioning behind it which might interfere with lying.

I know you put gentled in quotes so you're not exactly committed to that being the case either, just spring boarding off it.

Agreed. The imagery of Ishamael's action with a shield settling in and him holding something in his fingers like a knot which then disappears makes me think he placed a shield on her that will either evaporate in time or it will require someone to break. 

5 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Why, though? Why would Ishamael show her mercy? She's not powerful enough for him to want to turn her, and she's clearly someone set on fighting him. Why give her a chance to recover?

Ishamael's actions have been pretty confounding so far. Why is he bothering to directly influence the Seanchan himself? What's his deal with Perrin? Not stilling Moiraine may be just another little game he wants to play. 

7 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hmmm but the Aes Sedai have no idea the Oaths are ineffective after stilling. There's no way she'd be testing this. 

Siuan figured it out pretty quickly in the books.

8 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Now, the fact that Lan didn't feel his bond with Moiraine snap is the best proof she's not stilled, based on the books. But there's no guarantee those rules made it to screen

It would be nice if they did have those rules and agreed about what Lan would feel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

1) Why, though? Why would Ishamael show her mercy? She's not powerful enough for him to want to turn her, and she's clearly someone set on fighting him. Why give her a chance to recover?

2) You can feel the source when you're stilled. The weaves are even the same as shielding, for gentling, just sharper and heavier. And you always sense the source, it's just out of reach. There are multiple times Siuan tries to channel by instinct soon after she's stilled in the Books. 

In terms of behavior, she's doing what Siuan did: focus on a cause and keep working on it. That's what Adeleas and Verin discuss with Lan, too, and her sorrow when she's in the tub definitely reads more like stilling than a shield. A shield on its own doesn't leave you with that sense of desperate loss. 

3) Hmmm but the Aes Sedai have no idea the Oaths are ineffective after stilling. There's no way she'd be testing this. 

4) Now, the fact that Lan didn't feel his bond with Moiraine snap is the best proof she's not stilled, based on the books. But there's no guarantee those rules made it to screen, and it's especially weird to have Ishamael just shield her. 

1) I suppose it could be argued his power was mostly focussed on Rand, but that just isn't a very satisfactory answer, to me. 

1 - He thinks Moiraine can be useful to him to keep around. Ishy's agenda isn't straight forward, maybe its there as some practice for Rand to unpick later as part of learning to channel, I think there are plenty of potential explanations because ultimately the same objection would apply to "why did he gentle/still her instead of just killing her outright?".

2 - Fair point. This was the weakest part of my reasoning and my opinion was formed well before this was taken into account.

3 - I actually couldn't remember whether they know this or not. It's a potential change for the show, but not the strongest either way.

4 - That was one of the big ones for me at the end of S1, he doesn't react at all in the way a warder does to the bond being broken by stilling.

3 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Agreed. The imagery of Ishamael's action with a shield settling in and him holding something in his fingers like a knot which then disappears makes me think he placed a shield on her that will either evaporate in time or it will require someone to break. 

Yeah the visuals are actually the largest component of why I think this is what happened and there's more to my idea than just this bit with Moiraine. In S1E4 we get weaves for both shielding and gentling from the Aes Sedai.

  • We are told and shown that holding the shield is extremely taxing
  • The shield is depicted as forming a cocoon around Logain which is slowly compressed down until it lies flush against his skin. Importantly he is not cut off from saidin as this cocoon forms around him, he is still holding the source but his weaves are blocked from leaving the shielded area.
  • This is not merely aesthetic - he manages to pierce the shield with spears of air which are what kill Kerene, and then when Seppin attacks him he's able to use the breach made in the shield by the axes to get his weaves out of the shield.
  • When the gentle him this is depicted as drastically different - the weaves are a probe that go into his chest and essentially yank his connection to the source out of him, complete with a ton of saidin being dragged out and left to dissipate. It looks nothing like the shield.

Fast forward to the end of the season and then we get

  • Ishy counters Moiraine's air spears with something we don't see (I guess this is just a defensive shield around him so he's not actively weaving) then the same shielding with the cocoon around Moiraine that shrinks happens, but instead of stopping at her skin its absorbed into her and gets much smaller, seeming to surround just her heart area with 2 visible weaves still connected back to Ishy which eventually trail off. This also happens a lot faster than the AS shields.
  • At this point Moiraine reacts as though she's been actually cut off from the source
  • Ishy makes the tying gesture with his hand that Corvinus is referring to, and after this there's no more visible weaves

My interpretation of the whole thing is that

  1. Unlike the books, modern Aes Sedai don't actually know how to properly shield someone from the power - they are using an incomplete version of the weave which blocks someone from extending weaves beyond their body, but they are not actually cut off from the power. In the books there's a...mechanical advantage for someone holding a shield, its easier to hold it than it is to establish it, and the people holding the shield are stronger relative to the person being shielded than they are normally. This isn't the case with the incomplete shield they are using as the shielded person is never fully cut off.
  2. Ishy on the other hand does know the weave for proper shielding and this is what he does to Moiraine
  3. Ishy then ties off the weave. Its an important trick for later, so its good that its established early for TV viewers even if they don't actually know what it is for another 1-2 seasons.
  4. Because AS don't actually know the proper shielding, Moiraine has no frame of reference to realize that she's merely shielded but by the point of ep2 she's starting to realize there's more to it than she thought.
  5. This may come to bite Ishy in the ass by letting AS rediscover true shielding now they know its possible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Poobah said:

rather than taking Elaida's place she may be taking a role a bit higher up the Black Ajah hierarchy and remain in the tower rather than going full mask-off darkfriend in a few episodes time,

I've never thought she'd replace Elaida (and as she's been cast, we see that she's not.) Alviarin was always a better option IMO. They may or may not do it, but I honestly don't know how people thought an Elaida/Liandrin merge would be a good choice. I think it's important to see a sister we know and like? turn out to be bad (Liandrin) and to have the contrast of Elaida's misplaced confidence and ego be just as, if not more, damaging.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I've never thought she'd replace Elaida (and as she's been cast, we see that she's not.) Alviarin was always a better option IMO. They may or may not do it, but I honestly don't know how people thought an Elaida/Liandrin merge would be a good choice. I think it's important to see a sister we know and like? turn out to be bad (Liandrin) and to have the contrast of Elaida's misplaced confidence and ego be just as, if not more, damaging.

I think everyone that's raised the possibility of merging Liandrin and Elaida was bringing it up just to hope it doesn't happen haha. Guess we all ran ourselves in circles on that one and glad it was needless concern.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, karaddin said:

The closest it can get to not a lie is "A dozen letters now and not a single mention [by me] of Mat Cauthon." but that's just pushing it too far imo.

I think this can be a plausible out for people who don't know her true ajah, but I agree that this is meant to be an outright lie. They have her say a line to Egwene later 'Aes Sedai don't lie so know this is true" or something like that. That just seems like it's highlighting her earlier lie to Mat.

Regarding Moriane's shield/stilling. I think she's shielded. I also think it would be cool for Siuan to figure out there is a knot (her expertise) and have Rand be able to feel the weaves forming the knot. Working together, I think they could unravel it instead of worrying about Nyneave healing a stilled women (which is waaaaay too early). We know from trailers that all three will be in Cairhien at some point - Siuan talking to Rand and Rand with Moiraine/Lan. 

Also the three of them in Cairhien working together would cause someone to notice and give a good reason leading later events with Siuan. We can see a conspiracy and understand why the other sisters disapprove.

Edited by Gertrude
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Gertrude said:

Regarding Moriane's shield/stilling. I think she's shielded. I also think it would be cool for Siuan to figure out there is a knot (her expertise) and have Rand be able to feel the weaves forming the knot. Working together, I think they could unravel it instead of worrying about Nyneave healing a stilled women (which is waaaaay too early). We know from trailers that all three will be in Cairhien at some point - Siuan talking to Rand and Rand with Moiraine/Lan. 

Oh I like that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I think everyone that's raised the possibility of merging Liandrin and Elaida was bringing it up just to hope it doesn't happen haha. Guess we all ran ourselves in circles on that one and glad it was needless concern.

As in, eliminating the role of Elaida? 'cause as far as I understand it, they're casting someone for that role. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

As in, eliminating the role of Elaida? 'cause as far as I understand it, they're casting someone for that role. 

Yeah. I don't think I saw anyone wanting it to be done, but quite a few (including me) worrying that they would, but that was apparently unnecessary. I just meant to be saying 'no one actually wanted it'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah the worry about Liandrin merging with Elaida was borne out of the lack of Elaida in the show so far and Liandrin being an extremely prominent character in the same level of the main cast, where previously she was a bit villain. 

 

Personally I feel quite sure that Moiraine is supposed to be shielded but if the show doesn't start to explore or hint at it soon I think that it's going to feel like it comes out of nowhere for show only fans. The biggest hint is that during the attack in episode one it's very clear that she can see the weaves, she has a little "am I doing this?" look when she's down and trying desperately to reach the source and then sees Verin's attack begin to form. I can't say for sure that it's explicitly stated in the books but my feeling as a long time fan is that someone who's severed wouldn't be able to see weaves. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Ishamael's actions have been pretty confounding so far. Why is he bothering to directly influence the Seanchan himself? What's his deal with Perrin? Not stilling Moiraine may be just another little game he wants to play. 

Fair, and he does, in the books, just hurt and not kill her in their encounter in Tear, so there's some precedent.

As for the Seanchan, he was directly influencing the Seanchan through Suroth. He just wasn't showing his face. 

Now,Perrin has seen him leading them. That does make it a lot harder for the rest of the cast to not see the Seanchan as Darkfriends, but early on, they're convinced of that anyway, with the whole damane thing. 

9 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

Siuan figured it out pretty quickly in the books.

Because she was being tortured for info she desperately didn't want to give, though. Nothing has been pushing Moiraine to lie, and Aes Sedai avoid trying because of how hard the Oaths physically affect you when you try to lie. 

Again, all this is book logic that may simply not apply here, though. 

9 hours ago, Corvinus85 said:

It would be nice if they did have those rules and agreed about what Lan would feel.

Agreed. 

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

1 - He thinks Moiraine can be useful to him to keep around. Ishy's agenda isn't straight forward, maybe its there as some practice for Rand to unpick later as part of learning to channel, I think there are plenty of potential explanations because ultimately the same objection would apply to "why did he gentle/still her instead of just killing her outright?".

That one can be chalked down to malice. Most severed folks commit suicide eventually anyway, and Ishy does have a liking for causing misery and pain, not offering clean deaths. 

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

3 - I actually couldn't remember whether they know this or not. It's a potential change for the show, but not the strongest either way.

It would be a huge change, in some ways, but they also don't have the Aes Sedai being ageless (for practical reasons), so it wouldn't shock me if they make other changes to the Oaths. 

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

 

Yeah the visuals are actually the largest component of why I think this is what happened and there's more to my idea than just this bit with Moiraine. In S1E4 we get weaves for both shielding and gentling from the Aes Sedai.

  • We are told and shown that holding the shield is extremely taxing
  • The shield is depicted as forming a cocoon around Logain which is slowly compressed down until it lies flush against his skin. Importantly he is not cut off from saidin as this cocoon forms around him, he is still holding the source but his weaves are blocked from leaving the shielded area.
  • This is not merely aesthetic - he manages to pierce the shield with spears of air which are what kill Kerene, and then when Seppin attacks him he's able to use the breach made in the shield by the axes to get his weaves out of the shield.
  • When the gentle him this is depicted as drastically different - the weaves are a probe that go into his chest and essentially yank his connection to the source out of him, complete with a ton of saidin being dragged out and left to dissipate. It looks nothing like the shield.

Fast forward to the end of the season and then we get

  • Ishy counters Moiraine's air spears with something we don't see (I guess this is just a defensive shield around him so he's not actively weaving) then the same shielding with the cocoon around Moiraine that shrinks happens, but instead of stopping at her skin its absorbed into her and gets much smaller, seeming to surround just her heart area with 2 visible weaves still connected back to Ishy which eventually trail off. This also happens a lot faster than the AS shields.
  • At this point Moiraine reacts as though she's been actually cut off from the source
  • Ishy makes the tying gesture with his hand that Corvinus is referring to, and after this there's no more visible weaves

My interpretation of the whole thing is that

  1. Unlike the books, modern Aes Sedai don't actually know how to properly shield someone from the power - they are using an incomplete version of the weave which blocks someone from extending weaves beyond their body, but they are not actually cut off from the power. In the books there's a...mechanical advantage for someone holding a shield, its easier to hold it than it is to establish it, and the people holding the shield are stronger relative to the person being shielded than they are normally. This isn't the case with the incomplete shield they are using as the shielded person is never fully cut off.
  2. Ishy on the other hand does know the weave for proper shielding and this is what he does to Moiraine
  3. Ishy then ties off the weave. Its an important trick for later, so its good that its established early for TV viewers even if they don't actually know what it is for another 1-2 seasons.
  4. Because AS don't actually know the proper shielding, Moiraine has no frame of reference to realize that she's merely shielded but by the point of ep2 she's starting to realize there's more to it than she thought.
  5. This may come to bite Ishy in the ass by letting AS rediscover true shielding now they know its possible.

Well, Liandrin shields Nynaeve in the show, and it's a proper shield that leaves her with a sense of loss, and Liandrin is exhausted from holding it cause Nynaeve is so much stronger. It would also make it really bizarre for the Aes Sedai to forget this weave. They never lost the need for it, the need only grew as men started going mad. 

That said, the Forsaken are very strong, and do have advanced ways to place shields, even in the books. Plenty of ways for them to handle this without having the Aes Sedai unable to shield. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Impressed by the first three episodes. The introduction of the following characters went very well, IMO:

-Bayle Domon: 100% in character, and I enjoyed his bargaining with Moiraine (very Moiraine, both cheating him out of his money and then offering him some anyway because of the danger he is in)

-Verin: "so, who is the dragon?" - so Verin. Some of her other dialogue directly referred to the background and future of her character. Impressive.

-Elayne: wonderful combination of casting and writing. The mix of arrogance, self-confidence, loyalty, bravery and sweetness that is (early) Elayne. And they even had her start a microbrewery inside the Tower, very true as a character beat for her

-new Matt: the former actor was great as haunted Matt, but the new one seems just right for mischievous/confident Matt.

-Ingtar: regrettably he didn't get much screentime and he may possibly be sidelined now (for a bit at least), but what he did get was on point. Perrin will have to take over a certain role from Rand, in this case.

-Selene: I like this more subtle yet assertive version of her.

I also liked Errol, the old blademaster, and Rand's interactions with him very much. Some character moments for Rand were urgently needed, and it also serves as a nice introduction/reminder of the Aiel War and the blade forms.

The moments in the Tower were also well done, Egwene's opening scene (the walk through the Tower) in particular. Surprised about Liandrin's son, a nice touch to illustrate just how old Aes Sedai can be.

Moiraine stabbing (wounding?) the fade just by anticipating were it would be was also golden. I hope the tension between her  and Lan ends soon though (I suppose Moiraine wants to protect Lan now that the Forsaken are loose). I was surprised the poem made it in, looking forward to the next episode.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We got around to watching the first episode last night and enjoyed it a lot. I think the pacing was fine and I don’t think there was any issue with not giving the characters enough room to grow. One thing I like in this vs ring of power is that it doesn’t feel here that they’re afraid to have characters take a backseat or not show up at all in an episode.


Some shows are too beholden to always having to have each main character get screen time. This episode was about Moiraine, Perrin and Nynaeve and that was just fine. We got a bit of Mat and Egwene but not much. I think this pace works well for the show and especially if you’re not read the books. Doesn’t feel rushed unless you have the book history and are upset at what has not made it on to the screen. Regardless I’m glad they’re not just stuffing everything in for the sake of completeness.

I also agree with their choice to have Moiraine be a main character. One thing I never loved about WoT is that it often feels like some young twenties show that should be on some cable network. Every main character is young and hot and powerful. Going from people drooling over Rand to fights over Perrin and Mat as well. Then over to the girls with their own young drama. Feels too CW. They needed an older main character and can’t think of a better choice than Moiraine. I think they needed that older main character to stop the show from being typecast as a teen show.

Edited by Arakasi
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm missing Siuan here though. Someone else mentioned this, but they gave her training scene with Nynaeve to Liandrin, and had Liandrin push for Nynaeve's Accepted test rather than Siuan. We must assume, I suppose, that she's busy/traveling quite a lot, but it's a weird omission, given that she must at least be wondering wtf happened in Fal Dara. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm missing Siuan here though. Someone else mentioned this, but they gave her training scene with Nynaeve to Liandrin, and had Liandrin push for Nynaeve's Accepted test rather than Siuan. We must assume, I suppose, that she's busy/traveling quite a lot, but it's a weird omission, given that she must at least be wondering wtf happened in Fal Dara. 

Not to mention that they're failing to build her up before the coup, which for me was a strong, well done moment in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...