What was King Viserys' reasoning behind naming Rhaenyra as heir and her subsequent marriage alliance?

[AlaerysTargaryen]

The marriage to Laenor Velaryon was kinda of imposed on Rhaenyra , partly to reunite both claims to the Iron throne and right the wrong made when Rhaenys was put aside. I get that. But what about the future Kings of Westeros? They would've been Velaryons kings for a lot of generations of not in perpetuity. Didn't Viserys have a problem with the fact that the Targs were going to be kept out of the monarchy, just left to be royal spouses ? Didn't the rest of the realm had a problem with that?

[chrisdaw]

Maybe it'd be assumed on being crowned her issue would take the Targaryen name.

[Canon Claude]

57 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Maybe it'd be assumed on being crowned her issue would take the Targaryen name.

Exactly. When the heir is a woman, the husband takes her surname. According to most instances in the books, anyway.

[The Young Maester]

9 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

Exactly. When the heir is a woman, the husband takes her surname. According to most instances in the books, anyway.

I think in most instances the husband is of a much lower status than the woman. Which explains why women like lady waynwood and oakheart still rule their own lands. They married a man of lower status to prevent them from seizing power. That’s atleast how I think it is since I don’t think we are told about the husbands.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

34 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I think in most instances the husband is of a much lower status than the woman. Which explains why women like lady waynwood and oakheart still rule their own lands. They married a man of lower status to prevent them from seizing power. That’s atleast how I think it is since I don’t think we are told about the husbands.

It must also be the case for house Mormont, more specifically for Maege Mormont and her daughters. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

Rulers go by first name. The surname is not as important as the bloodline. The children will be Targaryen by blood. Styled something like King Jaecerys, First of His Name.  Queen Rhaenyra, First of Her Name.  

[C.T. Phipps]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:17 PM, AlaerysTargaryen said:

The marriage to Laenor Velaryon was kinda of imposed on Rhaenyra , partly to reunite both claims to the Iron throne and right the wrong made when Rhaenys was put aside. I get that. But what about the future Kings of Westeros? They would've been Velaryons kings for a lot of generations of not in perpetuity. Didn't Viserys have a problem with the fact that the Targs were going to be kept out of the monarchy, just left to be royal spouses ? Didn't the rest of the realm had a problem with that?

Frankly, you are correct and I believe a lot of people would have had serious issues with this. However, Viserys' problem was that he was a placater and always attempting to find the least conflict-filled solution to problems. He was made to make Rhaenyra into his heir as a way to undercut Daemon by Ser Otto and then Otto thought Viserys would make his own sons into his heirs.

But Otto didn't expect that Viserys wouldn't act like 99% of the men in Westeros' nobility.

[WolfgangII]

If Jacaerys would have been king I believed he would have taken the Targaryen name to further legitimized his claim. His children with Baela would also have a lot of dragon blood. (Curiosly, Jacaerys and Baela are first cousins on the Velaryon side and first cousins once removed on the Targaryen side). I assume Jacaerys could have used a split coat of arms, with the dragon and the seahorse, to reflect his heritage (ala Harry Hardyng).

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Frankly, you are correct and I believe a lot of people would have had serious issues with this. However, Viserys' problem was that he was a placater and always attempting to find the least conflict-filled solution to problems. He was made to make Rhaenyra into his heir as a way to undercut Daemon by Ser Otto and then Otto thought Viserys would make his own sons into his heirs.

But Otto didn't expect that Viserys wouldn't act like 99% of the men in Westeros' nobility.

Actually, I don't think we can spin it that way. We cannot pretend that Otto thought 'Well, Rhaenyra will only be the heir until the king finally fathers a son.' ... because the ruling on the succession and the subsequent vows of the lords and knights of the Realm didn't include such a caveat ... unlike rulings by earlier kings.

For instance, when King Maegor formally disinherited Jaehaerys and named Princess Aerea his heir he did it with the caveat 'until such a time that a son is born to me'. Aerea was also only the presumptive heir of King Jaehaerys later on until such a time as the king had a child of his own ... just as Princess Daenerys then was only the heir until the king finally had a son in Prince Aemon.

Viserys I didn't included any caveats when he named Rhaenyra his Heir Apparent - he did the same thing Jaehaerys I did with Aemon at the age of seven, and later with Baelon in 92 AC, and Viserys in 101 AC. She was his chosen heir.

Theoretically he could have changed the succession again, but it seems clear he wanted to keep Rhaenyra in that capacity even if he were to remarry and have a son. Else all he would have needed to do was to rule that a king's daughter now came before a king's brother.

Rhaenyra isn't just a placeholder heir. She is the Heir Apparent, and any lord or king going through such a ceremony really means it.

2 hours ago, WolfgangII said:

If Jacaerys would have been king I believed he would have taken the Targaryen name to further legitimized his claim. His children with Baela would also have a lot of dragon blood. (Curiosly, Jacaerys and Baela are first cousins on the Velaryon side and first cousins once removed on the Targaryen side). I assume Jacaerys could have used a split coat of arms, with the dragon and the seahorse, to reflect his heritage (ala Harry Hardyng).

Jacaerys would have to decide himself how he would call himself, although his talk at the Black Council might indicate that he would have wanted to be called Targaryen. However, his mother clearly didn't want that, or else she would have given her sons the Targaryen name from the beginning, not allowing Laenor and Corlys to view them as Velaryons.

And if we look at Laenor and Laena Velaryon then neither of them seemed to be very inclined to go with their mother's name, either. Neither is ever styled Targaryen despite the fact that both were claimants to the Iron Throne at the Great Council.

In context, I think, that especially Laenor would have felt no need to go with the Targaryen name. His father was the most famous man of his generation, much more prestigious than Aemon or Baelon Targaryen. He and his sister - who may have become his sister-wife if he had become king - were dragonriders, too. They were Targaryens lacking the Targaryen name, basically. Meaning they could have very well decided that their own name was as good as the Targaryen name and House Velaryon was the royal dynasty now.

While the Targaryens were an old dragonlords family ... they were never exactly old Westerosi nobility, meaning there was no real need to keep the name of the Targaryen dynasty.

Neither Daemon Blackfyre nor Robert Baratheon later feeled the need to go with the Targaryen name, never mind that both had sufficient royal blood to use the name. If Harrold Hardyng with his Arryn grandmother might go with the Arryn name should he become Lord of the Vale, then Robert Baratheon could have done the same due to his Targaryen grandmother (and also because House Baratheon's general blood ties to House Targaryen).

Of course, Robert had a very good personal reason not to go with the Targaryen name ... but if the name of an alleged bastard is good enough for a king 300 years after the Conquest, so would be the Velaryon name in 103 AC.

[WolfgangII]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jacaerys would have to decide himself how he would call himself, although his talk at the Black Council might indicate that he would have wanted to be called Targaryen. However, his mother clearly didn't want that, or else she would have given her sons the Targaryen name from the beginning, not allowing Laenor and Corlys to view them as Velaryons.

Surely, the Velaryon name is good enough to be the new royal house, however I feel (and its a feeling Jacearys never had the chance to decide that) that "Targaryen" would be more fitting after the whole heir of Viserys bussiness. If Jaceaerys had survived the Dance of the Dragons, been named Targaryen would help cement his status as true heir of Viserys, and if the Dance never came to happen and Rhaenyra inherit the throne paeacefully and the pass it on her son, maybe a he could have more leeway choosing between two household names. (The fact that I ommit because it remains rumor but could be in pro of Jaceaerys choosing "Velaryon" is to not give more ammunition to the rumors of his parentage).

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

While the Targaryens were an old dragonlords family ... they were never exactly old Westerosi nobility, meaning there was no real need to keep the name of the Targaryen dynasty.

Great point, Velaryon (and more after Corlys) had the same caché at the time that Targaryen. The dragons were the key, not the last name. Targaryen, Velaryon, Waters, Storm... it doesn't matter as long as they have dragons.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Neither Daemon Blackfyre nor Robert Baratheon later feeled the need to go with the Targaryen name, never mind that both had sufficient royal blood to use the name. If Harrold Hardyng with his Arryn grandmother might go with the Arryn name should he become Lord of the Vale, then Robert Baratheon could have done the same due to his Targaryen grandmother (and also because House Baratheon's general blood ties to House Targaryen).

Of course, Robert had a very good personal reason not to go with the Targaryen name ... but if the name of an alleged bastard is good enough for a king 300 years after the Conquest, so would be the Velaryon name in 103 AC.

Exactly, Robert would have never taken the Targaryen name, even thought he could make a claim. And the Blackfyres could but, c'mon is almost as important as a Targaryen to be named after the legendary sword, which ownership is part of the claim to the throne, anyways.

To bad we don't have (or I don't remember at the moment) another case of an heir taking his/her mother name.

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

Surely, the Velaryon name is good enough to be the new royal house, however I feel (and its a feeling Jacearys never had the chance to decide that) that "Targaryen" would be more fitting after the whole heir of Viserys bussiness. If Jaceaerys had survived the Dance of the Dragons, been named Targaryen would help cement his status as true heir of Viserys, and if the Dance never came to happen and Rhaenyra inherit the throne paeacefully and the pass it on her son, maybe a he could have more leeway choosing between two household names. (The fact that I ommit because it remains rumor but could be in pro of Jaceaerys choosing "Velaryon" is to not give more ammunition to the rumors of his parentage).

Sure enough, Jace may have felt that way, also because his father Laenor died early and would never sit at Rhaenyra's side as as prince or king consort. If Laenor had lived to ripe old age, possibly even outliving Rhaenyra and living well into his son's reign then Jace may have felt that as a dutiful son he would stick to the Velaryon name.

If things had gone peacefully, etc. then by the time Jace ascended the Iron Throne Rhaenyra and he may have figured how to include Aegon's children into the marriage policies, marrying Jaehaera to Jace's son, or something along those lines.

In such a scenario it may not have mattered all that much that there were a bunch of Targaryen princes out there while a Velaryon king sat the Iron Throne.

12 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

Great point, Velaryon (and more after Corlys) had the same caché at the time that Targaryen. The dragons were the key, not the last name. Targaryen, Velaryon, Waters, Storm... it doesn't matter as long as they have dragons.

Yes, and the standing. Corlys may have been even more famous than any Targaryen prince. I mean, even Jaehaerys I himself says that Rhaenys couldn't have found a better husband.

12 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

Exactly, Robert would have never taken the Targaryen name, even thought he could make a claim. And the Blackfyres could but, c'mon is almost as important as a Targaryen to be named after the legendary sword, which ownership is part of the claim to the throne, anyways.

Well, I always found the Blackfyre name was silly. Sure enough, Daemon chose a house name before he was legitimized, so it might make sense that he would keep it. But since his supporters thought he was the rightful king, etc. it is odd that they would drop the name of the rightful dynasty ... unless we assume that they thought the Targaryen name wasn't that important.

And if that was the case then it stands to reason that Jace and Laenor may not have cared about that all that much, either.

Although I certainly can see Jace going with the Targaryen name to better brush off the Strong calumny. Even if his Velaryon parentage was in doubt, nobody could doubt the identity of his Targaryen mother.

12 minutes ago, WolfgangII said:

To bad we don't have (or I don't remember at the moment) another case of an heir taking his/her mother name.

Well, it seems that the Waynwoods and Oakheart children go by their mother's name ... unless said ruling ladies didn't marry an Oakheart or Waynwood cousin.

It does strike me as very odd, though, to assume that outside Dorne children would go with the names of their mothers when both Laena/Laenor and Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor went with the name of their respective fathers. They were royalty, so they should have the most leeway in this regard, yet they didn't do this.

And especially in Laena/Laenor's case this is odd since both children were born at a point after their parents had decided to push their claim to the Iron Throne, so it would have been a powerful symbol if both had celebrated the nameday of Laena Targaryen and Laenor Targaryen, making it clear to the world that those children had as strong or even stronger a claim to the Iron Throne than Baelon Targaryen.

In fact, if you think about it, one would also imagine that Rhaenys would have given her daughter a traditional Targaryen name - and her son Aegon or Jaehaerys to really hammer home the fact that this boy would be king one day.

[C.T. Phipps]

To be fair, it seems that Westeros has a somewhat less misogynist view on family names even if it's more misogynist everywhere else.

Tywin Lannister doesn't seem overly concerned about the fact his grandchildren are Baratheons after all. They're still his chance to shape the dynasty of Westeros.

[AlaerysTargaryen]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 They were Targaryens lacking the Targaryen name, basically. Meaning they could have very well decided that their own name was as good as the Targaryen name and House Velaryon was the royal dynasty now.

 

Of course, Robert had a very good personal reason not to go with the Targaryen name ... but if the name of an alleged bastard is good enough for a king 300 years after the Conquest, so would be the Velaryon name in 103 AC.

 

Exactly. I 100% believe that Jace wouldve kept his Velaryon name upon ascending to the IT. Changing his name to Targaryen would also give more weight to the rumor of his bastardy. 

[frenin]

11 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Tywin Lannister doesn't seem overly concerned about the fact his grandchildren are Baratheons after all. They're still his chance to shape the dynasty of Westeros.

How and  why would he? Especially after the rumours of the incest came through

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, AlaerysTargaryen said:

Exactly. I 100% believe that Jace wouldve kept his Velaryon name upon ascending to the IT. Changing his name to Targaryen would also give more weight to the rumor of his bastardy. 

I'm inclined he would stick to the name, too, especially since he and Lucerys had been both given traditional Velaryon names, meaning it would have been kind of weird to keep that name and then go with the Targaryen name.

But since his claim would go through his mother and maternal grandfather he could just as well decide to honor them by going with the Targaryen name, especially since that would kind of dance around the whole Velaryon-Strong controversy.

[Frey family reunion]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:25 PM, Canon Claude said:

Exactly. When the heir is a woman, the husband takes her surname. According to most instances in the books, anyway.

I would assume that the Targaryens would have taken a cue from the Martells, and no matter the name of the husband, if the children's right to the Iron Throne came from their mother, they would have been given their mother's surname.  

[Frey family reunion]

I do wonder if Doran and Oberyn's father kept his surname or adopted the Martell name.  The only time he is mentioned is when Oberyn discusses their trip to Castle Rock where he only identifies his father (presumably) as his mother's consort.

[The Bard of Banefort]

17 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I do wonder if Doran and Oberyn's father kept his surname or adopted the Martell name.  The only time he is mentioned is when Oberyn discusses their trip to Castle Rock where he only identifies his father (presumably) as his mother's consort.

I think that might have been his stepfather. Because otherwise wouldn’t he have just called him his father?

I think in cases where a lower-born man marries a higher born woman, the man keeps his last name but the kids get hers. It might also depend on whether or not the kids inherit from their mother. For instance, if Rhaena had children with her Cornray husband, would they have been named Corbray? I’m guessing they would have, since Rhaena wasn’t set to inherit the IT. But if she was, that may have changed. 

[sifth]

Maybe he just loved her that much.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that might have been his stepfather. Because otherwise wouldn’t he have just called him his father?

I think in cases where a lower-born man marries a higher born woman, the man keeps his last name but the kids get hers. It might also depend on whether or not the kids inherit from their mother. For instance, if Rhaena had children with her Cornray husband, would they have been named Corbray? I’m guessing they would have, since Rhaena wasn’t set to inherit the IT. But if she was, that may have changed. 

Baela and Rhaena are both referred to by the house names of their husbands repeatedly in FaB. We get Baela Velaryon and Rhaena Corbray not just once. It is quite clear that their children are going to get the names of their husband - the second Laena is already a Velaryon.

We can also expect that Rhaena's six daughters will all be Hightowers ... although not exactly prestigious ones since their father is only the third son of a Lord of Oldtown.