MCU: Phases? What Phases???

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Think you’ve proved my point there. Outside of maybe Kang there isn’t a single character of note there to carry a franchise. Who the hell would they put in an Avengers movie?

Uh, Pugh as Yelena and Wilson Cap for starters.  Steinfeld as Kate Bishop is also quite promising.  And then there's Harington as Black Knight.  Three of those four are objectively young movie stars, and the fourth is the new Captain America.

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Think you’ve proved my point there. Outside of maybe Kang there isn’t a single character of note there to carry a franchise. Who the hell would they put in an Avengers movie?

Thor, Hulk, at least one Hawkeye, the new Captain America, the surviving Ant-people, Rhodey, Carol Danvers and maybe her friends from The Marvels, Spider-Man if sony plays ball, A Loki, maybe? Dane Whitman? Shang-Chi it seems for sure. The new Black Panther, Rirri Williams, Namor? Daredevil? She-Hulk? They've actually got a really deep bench at the moment. (Are Strange and Wong Avengers?) 

That's leaving US Agent, Black Widow 2.0, Abomination, and Zemo and maybe Ghost and Red Guardian for Thunderbolts. Moon Knight could probably join either team if Issac is willing to come back. 

Plus there's the Fantastic Four who while not avengers will probably have a big role. 

No idea what they'll do with characters like Hercules and Adam Warlock who are currently set up as antagonists but probably won't stay that way. 

You might not think these characters can "carry a franchise" but it seems silly to think people aren't going to go see the new Avengers movie regardless. People are invested in the shared universe. 

[briantw]

Strange, Spidey, Hulk, and Thor alone is enough of a core for the Avengers.  Add in the new Black Widow and a couple others and you’ve got a team.

Also, the Fantastic Four movie will be before the Kang Avengers movie and they will almost certainly be involved as well. 

[hauberk]

29 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Think you’ve proved my point there. Outside of maybe Kang there isn’t a single character of note there to carry a franchise. Who the hell would they put in an Avengers movie?

Please. 25 years ago, no one would have believed that Iron Man or Captain America would be able to carry a movie and Dr Strange would have been C-list at the maximum and Blade had already carried movies successfully. 
 

you observed that phase 4 had failed to introduce anything. I listed the things that it has introduced in preparation for the direction that they’ve been telegraphing all along. It may not be to your taste. It’s certainly not all to mine but it’s doing what they set out to do. Willfully arguing otherwise doesn’t change that. 

[Heartofice]

18 minutes ago, DMC said:

Uh, Pugh as Yelena and Wilson Cap for starters.  Steinfeld as Kate Bishop is also quite promising.  And then there's Harington as Black Knight.  Three of those four are objectively young movie stars, and the fourth is the new Captain America.

There is no way any of those are carrying a franchise or replacements for characters like Thor, Hulk and Iron man, you aren’t seriously suggesting that I’m sure.

If Phase 4 was the opportunity to move on from Endgame , bring in a bunch of new exciting characters that can take the mantle from the older ones.. then it’s been a real dud. All the above listed characters would be very lucky to even get on an Avengers poster never mind being a core part of the team.

Despite comments above, I don’t think the bench is deep at all. It’s shallow as hell, which is why we are still talking about an Avengers team made up almost entirely of the same characters as before, with no obvious candidates as to who would join them. If the best you can throw out is Black Windows sister or maybe whoever Jon Snow ends up being when Phase 4 is basically over then, yeah, it hasn’t really been a success

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, hauberk said:

Please. 25 years ago, no one would have believed that Iron Man or Captain America would be able to carry a movie and Dr Strange would have been C-list at the maximum and Blade had already carried movies successfully. 
 

you observed that phase 4 had failed to introduce anything. I listed the things that it has introduced in preparation for the direction that they’ve been telegraphing all along. It may not be to your taste. It’s certainly not all to mine but it’s doing what they set out to do. Willfully arguing otherwise doesn’t change that. 

Yeah, except we’ve now had almost all the phase 4 movies and shows and they have been ‘mixed’ at best. There is no instant positive reaction to unknown characters, like you’d see after Guardians of the Galaxy. I don’t see much enthusiasm for more Eternals, you aren’t going to have Kate Bishop or Black Knight leading the Avengers. 

[RumHam]

2 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There is no way any of those are carrying a franchise or replacements for characters like Thor, Hulk and Iron man, you aren’t seriously suggesting that I’m sure.

Why do they need replacements for Thor and Hulk? I'd say that Strange sort of replaces Tony in some ways and Rhodey is basically Iron Man "powers" wise. Plus Rirri will be Ironheart soon.

As a bunch of us have been saying the Phase thing is weird and pointless. It was the right move to slow things down after Endgame. Soon they'll start ramping back up. They have the X-Men and are content to sleep on that, so obviously they're not worried that their roster is lacking.

Quote

If the best you can throw out is Black Windows sister or maybe whoever Jon Snow ends up being when Phase 4 is basically over then, yeah, it hasn’t really been a success

But you're just ignoring everyone else we listed. In no universe is Dane Whitman one of the best new characters they've introduced in Phase 4. (Ms. Marvel has to be the best, no?)

It seems like they're using The Avengers as kind of a catch all term for all the heroes. Like everyone in that last endgame battle is an avenger? Or am I misinterpreting that? I expect these next two Avengers movies to be about everyone, not a small team of 6-8 characters. But I might be wrong.

[DMC]

5 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There is no way any of those are carrying a franchise or replacements for characters like Thor, Hulk and Iron man, you aren’t seriously suggesting that I’m sure.

Well, I'm saying Pugh can replace Johansson, Mackie can replace Evans, and Steinfeld can replace Renner - both in terms of their characters and Hollywood star power.  As mentioned, same goes for Maslany's She-Hulk for Ruffalo's Hulk, who doesn't appear to be leaving yet anyway.  You aren't seriously suggesting they can't, I'm sure.  As for Iron Man, the clear in-universe replacement is Spiderman, so def no problems there.

12 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

If Phase 4 was the opportunity to move on from Endgame , bring in a bunch of new exciting characters that can take the mantle from the older ones.. then it’s been a real dud. All the above listed characters would be very lucky to even get on an Avengers poster never mind being a core part of the team.

This is nothing more than your own absurd opinion.  Two of the characters I mentioned literally take the name of their predecessor, and Bishop kind of does with Hawkeye too.  Black Knight, yeah, I had never heard of, but then I'd never heard of the Guardians of the Galaxy either.

[RumHam]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

and Bishop kind of does with Hawkeye too.

At the end of the show Clint says he has a name for her to use and then it cuts to "Hawkeye" so yeah I took that as he retired and she's Hawkeye now.

[Heartofice]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I'm saying Pugh can replace Johansson, Mackie can replace Evans, and Steinfeld can replace Renner - both in terms of their characters and Hollywood star power.  As mentioned, same goes for Maslany's She-Hulk for Ruffalo's Hulk, who doesn't appear to be leaving yet anyway.  You aren't seriously suggesting they can't, I'm sure.  As for Iron Man, the clear in-universe replacement is Spiderman, so def no problems there

I am seriously suggesting they can’t actually. None of them are as iconic , charismatic or toy worthy as the originals. Even Mackie who I really liked in previous movies still has a lot to prove if he’s going to be as interesting as Steve Rogers. We’ll see what happens with She Hulk but she’s always been a much less interesting knock off of her cousin. So basically you are talking about a series of downgrades of existing characters. Not a success.

And yes, from a commercial and interest point of views you need to be able to replace aging expensive stars with new ones, and keep people engaged. So far I’m not seeing anything very encouraging on that front.

[polishgenius]

I mean, HoI's right that none of the characters as it stands now are ready to carry an Avengers film. But that's why there are three years, eight films, and at least eight but probably more seasons of TV before we get there.  


But, honestly, I'd say if there is a problem might not be the quality of the replacements but that there's so much material now that it's harder for anyone to have really caught on in the same iconic way the first couple phases brought characters (and actors) through. And it would feel weird for anyone coming straight from a TV show to lead an Avengers movie - but at least two of the legacy characters in question will have big roles in a movie before then so... while I do think it's messier at this point than certainly the early parts of the Infinity stories, I also think Marvel do in fact have an idea what they're doing. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

None of them are as iconic , charismatic or toy worthy as the originals.

Lol, right, Pugh, Steinfeld, and Maslany can't be just as much of those things as Johansson, Renner, and Mark Ruffalo - the latter two never even starred in their own movie, btw.  As for Mackie, we'll see, I admittedly have my doubts (in large part due to my distaste for the TV show), but it ain't like Chris Evans was a box office juggernaut when he took the role either.

If you have a problem with them all being too direct replacements of their predecessors, fair enough, but that's likely orthogonal to Disney making money off them.  And it's preposterous to suggest Marvel hasn't cast some very promising young stars to usher in the next generation.

[mormont]

To be fair, Renner was not iconic, charismatic or toy worthy. But then he didn't carry the movies either. There are numerous jokes about it.

What Disney really need is for just two or three of Steinfeld, Maslany, Vellani, Harington, Pugh, Dominique Thorn, Tenoch Huerta, Kathryn Newton, Simu Liu, etc. to blow up big. And that doesn't seem a wild idea.

[Heartofice]

16 minutes ago, DMC said:

Lol, right, Pugh, Steinfeld, and Maslany can't be just as much of those things as Johansson, Renner, and Mark Ruffalo - the latter two never even starred in their own movie, btw.  As for Mackie, we'll see, I admittedly have my doubts (in large part due to my distaste for the TV show), but it ain't like Chris Evans was a box office juggernaut when he took the role either.

If you have a problem with them all being too direct replacements of their predecessors, fair enough, but that's likely orthogonal to Disney making money off them.  And it's preposterous to suggest Marvel hasn't cast some very promising young stars to usher in the next generation.

I’m not saying the actors aren’t good, that’s almost a given. The issue is that they are just playing much less engaging versions of the same character, far less iconic than the originals, and that’s even acknowledging we are talking about side players who were pretty much a joke in some avengers movies like Hawkeye. 

 

22 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

I mean, HoI's right that none of the characters as it stands now are ready to carry an Avengers film. But that's why there are three years, eight films, and at least eight but probably more seasons of TV before we get there. 

Sure but we’ve just seen the slate of movies and tv shows coming up, and that’s pretty much prompted my scepticism about the direction of the MCU. Looking at the next couple of phases which seem to culminate in 2 Avengers films, which new characters are the exciting ones we are all dying to see more of. Who will be brought into the Avengers to build this new team? So far it looks like it’s going to be the same people as before, with some downgraded versions of lesser heroes. 
 

That’s what I’m saying, if this 3 phase structure was built to move towards something, to introduce a new wave of heroes to replace the aging ones we already have, it hasn’t really worked. The upcoming slate doesn’t give me much promise of anything to look forward to either. It’s not like Blade is going to be the focus of the MCU in the future.. unless Kang is a vampire.
 

[Denvek]

Marvel have already proved with Phase 1 that they can take a bunch of C-list heroes* and turn them into A-listers before the ensemble film, and they've done it again a few times since. They'll be able to do it again enough to make the money they're after.

*Plus Hulk - he was actually well-known in 2007, which is why Marvel didn't, and still don't have 100% of the rights to him.

[hauberk]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

To be fair, Renner was not iconic, charismatic or toy worthy. But then he didn't carry the movies either. There are numerous jokes about it.

What Disney really need is for just two or three of Steinfeld, Maslany, Vellani, Harington, Pugh, Dominique Thorn, Tenoch Huerta, Kathryn Newton, Simu Liu, etc. to blow up big. And that doesn't seem a wild idea.

Indeed. When this started Downey Jr was a has been, Evans was the survivor of a whole host of bad comic movies and Hemsworth was second choice to Charlie Hunnam. To say nothing of the fact that the Avengers were a pale shade of the X-men from public awareness standpoint. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Denvek said:

Marvel have already proved with Phase 1 that they can take a bunch of C-list heroes* and turn them into A-listers before the ensemble film, and they've done it again a few times since. They'll be able to do it again enough to make the money they're after.

*Plus Hulk - he was actually well-known in 2007, which is why Marvel didn't, and still don't have 100% of the rights to him.

Why is this argument repeated? We’ve already had phase 4 and it was full of duds. It’s already happened. We already know what is good and what isn’t.  

[briantw]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

Lol, right, Pugh, Steinfeld, and Maslany can't be just as much of those things as Johansson, Renner, and Mark Ruffalo - the latter two never even starred in their own movie, btw.  As for Mackie, we'll see, I admittedly have my doubts (in large part due to my distaste for the TV show), but it ain't like Chris Evans was a box office juggernaut when he took the role either.

If you have a problem with them all being too direct replacements of their predecessors, fair enough, but that's likely orthogonal to Disney making money off them.  And it's preposterous to suggest Marvel hasn't cast some very promising young stars to usher in the next generation.

Even Robert Downey Jr was pretty early into the revitalization of his Hollywood image when he was cast as Iron Man.  Hemsworth was a nobody and is now one of Marvel's biggest stars.  Pratt was a chubby comedic actor before Marvel turned him into a megastar.  No one knew who Tom Holland was before Civil War.  Black Panther likely would have catapulted Boseman to superstardom had he not tragically died.  

Johansson was probably the biggest name in the early Marvel movies.  Well, her and Sam Jackson, but he's rarely been anything other than a supporting character in most of the movies.  Of the current cast, Cumberbatch and Rudd were probably the two most famous actors prior to taking on their Marvel roles, but I don't think Rudd had ever been in an action movie before and was largely known as a supporting comedy guy.  

The simple fact is that bulk of Marvel's biggest stars right now are stars because of Marvel movies, not the other way around, and I suspect that will continue.  I guess Eternals had a handful of well known people, but that was an ensemble and I don't expect most of them to become major parts of the MCU.

[Winterfell is Burning]

2 hours ago, briantw said:

Strange, Spidey, Hulk, and Thor alone is enough of a core for the Avengers.  Add in the new Black Widow and a couple others and you’ve got a team.

. 

Also, essentially all the characters left are much bigger names than the GotG were before their movie, no reason the movie can't be a hit.

 

 

[RumHam]

54 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Why is this argument repeated? We’ve already had phase 4 and it was full of duds. It’s already happened. We already know what is good and what isn’t.  

Eternals and maybe the new Thor depending who you ask were the only "duds." Thor is an existing and continue character and The Eternals were their own team, they were never joining the avengers or replacing anyone. (I liked Eternals, for the record.)

All the shows and the rest of the movies were well received.