Homage to Homer

[TheLastWolf]

Odysseus tells that 'I am nobody" and kills the cyclops Polyphemus, s/o Poseidon, tricking the other blind giants into not responding to the victim's cries of help.

Arya in the HOBAW repeatedly says that she is 'no one'. And like the Cyclops, the only one-eyed character I could think of is Bloodraven (the rest are either dead or of too little significance). And he's a bastard/illegitimate son, much like the Cyclops are shitty offspring of Poseidon, unlike say Theseus. If/when Arya's arc brings her to Westeros and to the North (there's nothing for her South) and Beyond the Wall in the Others battle etc, Bloodraven, if he's the evil manipulative schemer I think him to be, will die at her hands. Foreshadowing, people!

Other Greek/Roman parallels are welcome, mainly from Homer's works there are many and I'll continue. With Tolkien's world having a lot of parallels, I don't think these epics are any exceptions.

[TheLastWolf]

Lyanna - Helen (both not recovered but war fought over them) 

Rhaegar - Paris n Hector 

Robert - Menelaus 

Jon Arryn - Agamemnon (converting into political opportunity) 

Eddard - Odysseus (Sean Bean didn't die in a movie after all!) 

Arya - Odysseus trying to reach home, being 'no one', homecoming, mass killing? Red wedding 2.0? Freys got it coming I say. Boltons too 

Priam - Aerys (throne room) 

Achilles - Jaime 

Briseis - Brienne (names similar) 

Cersei - Circe (again) 

The Horse - Jaime/Pycelle allow Tywin and Lannister host to sack KL

Surviving Trojans fleeing to found Rome like Dany and Viserys to Essos subsequently Ghiscari 

Calypso - Ygritte? 

 

Since so obviously many, I guess I'm not the first to stumble. Well, till winds is out, theorize we can. 

Tbc... 

[Mourning Star]

I think there is a nice parallel to be drawn between the fall of Troy and the fall of Valyria, with a possible "trojan horse" from "no one" causing the fall even?

It's not Homer, but there is also a nice Aeneas/Aegon the Conqueror parallel to be made, and potentially a Romulus/Remus parallel to the Stark in Winterfell and the Night's King fighting over the Wall.

Also, the Sack of King's Landing and the Fall of Troy have parallels. The death of the "old king" and his grandson's brains dashed against the wall in particular.

[TheLastWolf]

9 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think there is a nice parallel to be drawn between the fall of Troy and the fall of Valyria, with a possible "trojan horse" from "no one" causing the fall even?

It's not Homer, but there is also a nice Aeneas/Aegon the Conqueror parallel to be made, and potentially a Romulus/Remus parallel to the Stark in Winterfell and the Night's King fighting over the Wall.

Also, the Sack of King's Landing and the Fall of Troy have parallels. The death of the "old king" and his grandson's brains dashed against the wall in particular.

Cool!

Aeneas, never thought of it

Let's come to the gods...

Zeus - The Father

Hera - The Mother

Ares - The Warrior

Hephaestus - The Smith

Aphrodite - The Maiden (ok, at first at least)

Hestia - The  Crone

Hades - The Stranger

Dionysius (not an olympian if Hestia considered) - The Goat of Qohor? Satyr

 

The Titan of Braavos (venice parallel) - Colossus of Rhodes (Helios)

[TheLastWolf]

13 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

And like the Cyclops, the only one-eyed character I could think of is Bloodraven (the rest are either dead or of too little significance).

• Bartimus gaoler at The Wolf's Den, sounds like Cyclops cave, on an island too iirc off coast of White Harbour. But if we take the 'nobody'/'no one' seriously, it can apply to any FM, not just Cadet Arya.
• Buford Bulwer he really is a nobody lol
• Beric Dondarrion gone
• Philip Foote interesting but insignificant
• Half-blind garron really?
• Jack-Be-Lucky Arya knows him, and not a bad guy in her list, so nothing. But he supports the hanging of Hunt, Payne and Brienne. Curious how the Jaime arc will intersect.
• Kedge Whiteye fate unknown, prbly dead
• One Eye this wolf is a threat to Bran, Summer's pack, BR may warg him, endless possibilities. Varamyr inside after all. And BranSummer knows that there's a warg but content to leave it after forcing submission. Then there was this stupid small q i posted in the thread about how or whether will them eating the moving flesh of wights would have any significance.
• One-eyed crone alwways suspected Quaithe like, 3EC, Shiera, BR etc involvement but mostly nah
• Robyn Rhysling duh
• Brynden Rivers 
• Jonnel Stark troublesome reign, that's all
• Sunfyre rip
• Aemond Targaryen another kinslayer like BR, rode Vhagar, killed by none less than Daemon wielding Dark Sister through the eye too...hmm
• Timett In the Vale currently, Tyrion out of the equation but Sansa is still there, he may be a cruel savage barbarian, but in the grand scheme not as evil as Littlefinger or Cersei.
• Mors Umber Crowfood, swore Stannis fealty since thinks all starks dead, elder brother of Hother Whoresbane (with the FreysnBoltons since Greatjon captive), with Smalljon dead and all this pitting against each other (unwillingly though) the Umbers make for an interesting possibility in Winds. Rumoured to be dead along with the green boys in the Frey ambush skirmish. At least got Hosteen's horse and Aenys. If dead, fArya/Jeyne was a harbringer you could say. The only Umber host left then is (Maester lol) Hother's greybeards. Moreover Mors hated the freefolk for the abduction of his daughter. Could it be that she's alive as a wildling?
• Yna is where Arya is, a blood tasting maegi too, a whore, in the winds preview seen with Cossomo the Conjurer by Mercy. If my Lanna theory is right, makes it all the more interesting.

[Mourning Star]

14 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Aphrodite - The Maiden (ok, at first at least)

Given that there were twelve Olympians and more gods and goddesses besides, I don't think we can necessarily draw one to one parallels.

Persephone was also called Kora, literally meaning "the maiden", although she was not an olympian, having been abducted by Hades.

Hestia was also a maiden goddess, and the first born child of Cronos and Rhea, and goddess of the hearth and sacred flame.

Artemis and Athena were the second and third of the three Olympian maiden goddesses, over whom Aphrodite had no power.

Persephone's mother Demeter is another candidate for "the mother", along with Hera and Aphrodite. Although I would argue Hera is more a goddess of marriage and Aphrodite lust/love.

The feud between Aphrodite, Hera and Athena was the mythic cause of the Trojan War.

Eris, goddess of strife, wasn't invited to the marriage of Achilles's parents, so she rolled a golden apple into the party with kallistēi, "To the fairest", written on it. Mayhaps this was the inspiration for the title Khaleesi in ASoIaF?

[Aline de Gavrillac]

You can find loosely similar ideas if you bother to glance.  The Targaryens are very similar to the Greeks and Romans.  From Lord of the Rings to the Bible,you will see the same ideas. 

Helen, Robert, and Rhaegar are kind of like the story of Troy.  Daenerys used a Trojan dragon to defeat Astapor.  The journey to Westeros is likely laborious if she is the Odysseus here.  From the bible, Jon is the Judas who betrayed his duty.  Sansa is Rapunzel from the fairy tales. 

[TheLastWolf]

16 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Hestia was also a maiden goddess, and the first born child of Cronos and Rhea, and goddess of the hearth and sacred flame.

That's why I slotted her as the Crone , couldn't think of anyone else.

16 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Eris, goddess of strife, wasn't invited to the marriage of Achilles's parents, so she rolled a golden apple into the party with kallistēi, "To the fairest", written on it. Mayhaps this was the inspiration for the title Khaleesi in ASoIaF?

That's brilliant, but I think it was because Khal sounds badass and you need a female version for the queen. Equally probable like you said for the masculine version to have been derived from the feminine, since Dany is a major character.

16 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Aphrodite lust/love.

Lysene godesses then?

[TheLastWolf]

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

You can find loosely similar ideas if you bother to glance.  The Targaryens are very similar to the Greeks and Romans.  From Lord of the Rings to the Bible,you will see the same ideas. 

Olive/tanned skinned black haired dark eyed, yeah sure, exact ValyAryan traits and I figure I've bothered to glance enough if I start threads about it. Greece and Rome and Mediterranean just form the Smoking sea equivalent and Valyria/ Ghiscari cities. Not the people. Just geography. 

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Helen, Robert, and Rhaegar are kind of like the story of Troy.

If you say so 

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

Daenerys used a Trojan dragon to defeat Astapor.  The journey to Westeros is likely laborious if she is the Odysseus here.

She's mono-acting haven't you heard, she's the hero, heroine, comedian, sidekick, she even does solo orgies (not an oxymoron believe me). Not the villain of course *vehemently*!, how can such a pure race gospel abiding protagonist be her own villain, we got evil Jewish (looking) Jon Snow for that. 

For consolation, the dragon part makes sense

7 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

From the bible, Jon is the Judas who betrayed his duty.  Sansa is Rapunzel from the fairy tales. 

And Arya is Pippi Longstocking x ... wait, does the neo nazi cult hate her because she's the sister of a Jew and a witch too? Warg(cat so far, just dwolfie dreams) and all. My my, the medieval mob-posse make for an interesting bunch.

...Veda

[Mychel_Redfort]

17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Given that there were twelve Olympians and more gods and goddesses besides, I don't think we can necessarily draw one to one parallels.

To me, the Seven call to the seven days of our week, each day linked to a visible planet

Sunday - Sun - The Father (Apollo ?)
Monday - Moon - The Mother (Artemis ?)
Tuesday - Mars - The Warrior
Wednesday - Mercury - The Crone (for the wisdom)
Thursday - Jupiter - The Smith?
Friday - Venus - The Maiden
Saturday - Saturn - The Stranger

[TheLastWolf]

22 minutes ago, Mychel_Redfort said:

Thursday - Jupiter - The Smith?

Thor, Norse gods et al would be a serious derailer. We are not Disney or Rick Riordan after all. But interesting take.

[Castellan]

Tyrion as Odysseus

[TheLastWolf]

Well we can't possibly slot every character far from home as Odysseus, then it will be DisneyMarvel's Spidey next. 

But on the brighter side, we have these many candidates to choose from. 

[Castellan]

One thing, I don't think referencing is necessarily predictive in GRRM - its more like he puts layers of stuff to make up characters, as if he is enamalling.

Characters can have bits of Homer in their make up as well as the Wars of the Roses and Norse mythology.
In fact the referencing can be a bit deceptive. Jaime as Achilles makes you think he will eventually rouse himself and become the brilliant knight he was before he 'went into a sulk' as one poster once described it. Instead he has lost his sword hand. His path is going to be a lot more miserable and complicated than initially seemed (then again, so are the books - a trilogy that kept winding around and stretching.)

I don't think there is anyone more like Odysseus than Tyrion, not that there can only be one character referencing Odysseus. The way he has bounced around, from one sticky situation to the next, always surviving by his wits and his clever tongue, in a truly stupendous run of bad luck, one would certainly think that the Gods are preventing him from going home. His quick wits, guile, adaptability and ability to persuade to survive stand out. Someone like Arya who is also now in Essos, is quite a different personality.

[Nevets]

On 7/26/2022 at 9:58 AM, TheLastWolf said:

Lyanna - Helen (both not recovered but war fought over them) 

Rhaegar - Paris n Hector 

Robert - Menelaus 

Jon Arryn - Agamemnon (converting into political opportunity) 

Eddard - Odysseus (Sean Bean didn't die in a movie after all!) 

Arya - Odysseus trying to reach home, being 'no one', homecoming, mass killing? Red wedding 2.0? Freys got it coming I say. Boltons too 

Priam - Aerys (throne room) 

Achilles - Jaime 

Briseis - Brienne (names similar) 

Cersei - Circe (again) 

The Horse - Jaime/Pycelle allow Tywin and Lannister host to sack KL

Surviving Trojans fleeing to found Rome like Dany and Viserys to Essos subsequently Ghiscari 

Calypso - Ygritte? 

 

Since so obviously many, I guess I'm not the first to stumble. Well, till winds is out, theorize we can. 

Tbc... 

George himself has compared Lyanna & Rhaegar to Helen & Paris.  Interestingly, the motivation behind Paris and Helen remains unknown, and I think the same will occur with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Arya's journey is reminiscent of Odysseus with all of the false starts and detours.

Cersei's name is so similar to that of Circe I doubt it is coincidental.  Both are portrayed as deceitful and unpleasant.

[HoodedCrow]

@Nevets The Goddess of love beat out the top goddess with powers and Zeus’s daughter Athena if the power or wisdom. Paris chooses love and the wars ensue. And the moral of the story? Don’t much like aristocratic male Greeks for fairness to women. By the way, I always had a distaste for powerful women fighting over a lesser man.

[TheLastWolf]

10 hours ago, Castellan said:

I don't think there is anyone more like Odysseus than Tyrion, not that there can only be one character referencing Odysseus. The way he has bounced around, from one sticky situation to the next, always surviving by his wits and his clever tongue, in a truly stupendous run of bad luck, one would certainly think that the Gods are preventing him from going home. His quick wits, guile, adaptability and ability to persuade to survive stand out. Someone like Arya who is also now in Essos, is quite a different personality.

The wits part I totally agree, but Kafkaesqueness goes to Arya

[Castellan]

20 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

The wits part I totally agree, but Kafkaesqueness goes to Arya

yes, poor Arya.

[TheLastWolf]

Anything like Valyrian steel ?, this is something

[James Arryn]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:55 PM, Nevets said:

George himself has compared Lyanna & Rhaegar to Helen & Paris.  Interestingly, the motivation behind Paris and Helen remains unknown, and I think the same will occur with Rhaegar and Lyanna.

I might suggest that it more closely fits other sources for the Trojan cycle than Homer’s, ie the ones that have Helen ending tragically rather than in Homer’s domestic tranquility. 
 

In terms of the Odyssey, as opposed to Odysseus, neither Arya nor Tyrion’s arc fits all that well, though in terms of character both have merit. But Homer’s version of both legends are concentrated on the idea of setting out with a defined, specific agenda and then being waylaid into decades of diversion, without the intent ever changing. Arya is a bit closer, but even her goals are often vague and subject to change, often of her own volition. Maybe it started out as ‘getting home’, which would fit perfectly, but ‘home’ was a moveable feast and one which pretty quickly started to give way to vengeance. Tyrion fits even less well; most of his early wanderings were prompted by ~ tourism, and he has never had a particularly defined end in mind, we don’t see him pining for CR or desperately trying to get anywhere, really. The untold story of the Beggar King or Jorah Mormont or Jon Connington or Aerea Targaryen* and many others could just as easily be made to fit as Tyrion or Arya do. 

 

Both use their wits to get out of tricky situations, but then so too do ~ 75% of literary heroes going back forever, so not really convincing. Moreover the Odyssey is marked with very specific/iconic stages, and there are no particular parallels along the way in either case excepting perhaps a composite Braavos as the Cyclops.  

* has anyone written much on the Arya/Aerea parallels, btw?