Watched, Watch, Watching : Save the Wiseguys fundraiser

[Week]

I now have to ask for all references of the show use the "Hot D" moniker. Please.

I thought the show was fine. Enjoyed Matt Smith -- though the wigs were not great. The birth/tournament juxtaposition was heavy handed and that was cringe. "Men in a random tourney fighting is just like women losing their bodily autonomy (and life) in child birth". Ok? Is that really what you want to say and a compelling way to tell the story? No to both, IMO.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

But did that dynasty have an interesting issue with the line of succession!<>?

There are few that do not, whenever, and wherever!  As with all the Chinese dynasties anyway, this one too ended with a poet's sorrow and mourning, for what was, and for what might have been, except for men's cruel stupidity, laziness and foolishness. The end of this dynasty (735 C.E.) is considered to be a cultural break in Chinese history on the order of WWI in Europe's.

Weeping in the wilderness, how many families
know of war and loss,
Barbarian songs in scattered places
rise from fishermen and woodcutters,
Sleeping Dragon Zhuge Liang,
Leaping Horse Gongsun Shu,
heroes turned to brown dust.
All word of events in the human world
lost in these vast silent spaces.

 --- Da Fu, whom many think was China's greatest poet.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Week  

Quote

The birth/tournament juxtaposition was heavy handed and that was cringe. "Men in a random tourney fighting is just like women losing their bodily autonomy (and life) in child birth". Ok? Is that really what you want to say and a compelling way to tell the story? No to both, IMO.

  Well, ya know one way or another we must have women suffer because after all in the middle ages that's all they all did.  Or be prostitutes, and suffer as well.    Let's just ignore all the women who didn't, such as Empress Matilda and Queen Eleanor, who actually exercised power, who fought wars -- and just like men, won some and lost some -- while spreading art and culture far and near, and practicing it as well.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Week said:

I now have to ask for all references of the show use the "Hot D" moniker. Please.

I thought the show was fine. Enjoyed Matt Smith -- though the wigs were not great. The birth/tournament juxtaposition was heavy handed and that was cringe. "Men in a random tourney fighting is just like women losing their bodily autonomy (and life) in child birth". Ok? Is that really what you want to say and a compelling way to tell the story? No to both, IMO.

Or maybe it strengthens the Targ vision dreams and gives them credibility. He said he dreamt about his sons birth while hearing the crashing and cheers from a tourney, then it happens. End of episode he tells his heir about a Targ vision about the end of the world... maybe this was the plan and not gratuitous violence and comparing it to child birth.  Do agree about the wigs though, don't like them. 

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Week said:

The birth/tournament juxtaposition was heavy handed and that was cringe. "Men in a random tourney fighting is just like women losing their bodily autonomy (and life) in child birth". Ok? Is that really what you want to say and a compelling way to tell the story? No to both, IMO.

Man this is really a damned if you do, damned if you don't thing.  Guarantee if they "whitewashed" Aemma's death in childbirth - especially if Viserys still ordered it the way he did - there would be a whole lot more people complaining (and almost certainly the same people).  Here's an article from Aja Romano at Vox on the scene that I generally agree with:

Quote

Spoiler

Enter House of the Dragon as the first major post-Roe TV series to present some kind of allegory for what just happened to women across the nation. Viserys in this scene subverts all decent notions of how a husband is supposed to feel about his own wife and what he’s supposed to want to protect. Yet Viserys isn’t just acting as a husband; here he is literally the state itself. He is the king and thus the law; his concerns are about succession, about governing and continuing the Targaryen line above all else. In the eyes of the state, Aemma is an incubator for the next Targaryen king. Viserys’s choice to kill her doesn’t even seem to do much more than lightly distress him. Why should it? The state decided long ago what role Aemma has to play. Now, the state has decided that in order to fulfill it, she must die.

 

[Zorral]

20 minutes ago, DMC said:

, the state has decided that in order to fulfill it, she must die.

Who decided that the ordering of this state ordered that the woman must die for it?

I recall there were ages and states in which it was the king who must die for the state.  Which makes heroes of kings, who are men, of course. The queen who must die isn't a hero of course, in the choice of ordering this fictional state.

In real life historical situations, for example, for Rome, an adopted heir was common and accepted, even if a female descendant wasn't.

[RumHam]

I do think they should have made it more clear that Aemma was doomed by that point, barring a miracle. At least that was my read of it. I really don't think they want us to hate Viserys.

Edit: I wonder if there's gonna be this much discussion of the show here, should we just make a thread rather than cluttering up this one?

[Week]

I think the cringe aspect was heightened by inadvertently watching some of the 'behind the episode' after credits which was ... not impressive.

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Who decided that the ordering of this state ordered that the woman must die for it?

Well, I suppose Aja Romano in the quote I provided.  But that really isn't their point - it was that it served as an analogy for what's happening today with the state and childbirth autonomy, and Sapochnik was very clear that was the intention.

As for the juxtaposition with the tourney, that was an obvious depiction of probably the most famous childbirth quote from the series.  Worked for me 

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, DMC said:

Worked for me 

What about those viewer who see these conditions and torture of women make the show fun to watch?  The words FUN and ENTERTAINING are words they use to describe their reactions to these back-and-forth scenes.  When others, even women who are pregnant, say fun it is not, they get angry coz 'tryin' to harsh my buzz.'

That is the heart of my objections here, just like the VOX writer's -- who was the first I saw use HOT D -- that the HOT D writers didn't do enough to make this come through as something that cannot be described as 'fun'.  Honestly, that anybody (not you, let me haste to say!) could use fun and entertaining as words to describe those scenes means the writers fell down on the job.  It's clear from the commentary on many sites, that many viewers, despite those who objected, the relentless humiliation and torture of women in Got, got them believing this stuff is one bro put it, "mature fun."  Thus believe that is all women in the middle ages ever experienced and were.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What about those viewer who see these conditions and torture of women make the show fun to watch?  The words FUN and ENTERTAINING are words they use to describe their reactions to these back-and-forth scenes.  When others, even women who are pregnant, say fun it is not, they get angry coz 'tryin' to harsh my buzz.'

Sure, this is how I described the scene when I first posted about it the other night:

On 8/22/2022 at 5:22 AM, DMC said:

I haven't read any of this thread, just want a platform to write out my thoughts.  I was pleasantly surprised they put more focus on Aemma's death than frankly Martin ever did.  It worked well.  Like, really well and unexpected.  Viserys effectively killing her to try to get an heir entirely makes sense and was as wrenching as it should have been. 

"Wrenching" for the viewer, certainly not fun or entertaining.  Which is pretty much how Romano described it in the linked article above:

Quote

The episode’s climax, which sees a king making a terrible decision that leads to his wife bleeding out during childbirth, may strike some viewers as unnecessarily sadistic. That is, after all, entirely in keeping with Game of Thrones’ reputation. And it’s true — it’s not an easy scene to watch, even if you’re not particularly squeamish.

But thematically, the childbirth scene sets up two of the major themes of House of the Dragon (HotD) — one being King Viserys (Paddy Considine)’s desperation for a male heir and the pressure riding on him to secure the line of succession for House Targaryen.

And tbc, the scene clearly "worked" for Romano too:

Quote

The theme of this episode? “Torture.”

On social media, debate arose about whether this episode’s brutalization of women was gratuitous — an expected discourse, with the longstanding criticism that Game of Thrones was needlessly misogynistic. But given that state-sanctioned misogyny continues to exist and impact the way women are treated in the real world, we continue to need art that reflects and critiques that misogyny with a degree of realism — and yes, that critique of real-world politics can happen even in a fantasy show full of dragons. House of the Dragon’s first episode gives us a discomfiting, graphic look at what such a critique might now look like.

Spoiler alert: It’s not pretty.

[mormont]

Folks:

Genuinely, there is an entire area of the site set aside to discuss HotD. Take it there.

[Derfel Cadarn]

Rewatching Supernatural season 6. Its in the nadir era of the series, but still fun. Just watched Caged Heat episode, was quite funny:

(Sam and Dean doing research in motel room while Castiel watches TV)

Castiel: If the pizza man truly loves this babysitter, why does he keep slapping her rear? Perhaps she’s done something wrong.

Dean: You’re watching porn? Why?
Castiel: It was there.

Dean: You don’t watch porn in a room full of dudes. And you don’t talk about it. Just turn it off. Well, now he’s got a boner.

(Their grandfather walks in)

Samuel: Is this what you boys do? Watch pornos with angels?

And earlier, when Castiel’s not answering their ‘prayers’ to come to earth:

Sam: Castiel, we need you. It’s important. Cas, we found something. It’s this gold box. Apparently Nazis were after it back in the day, someone opened it and their face melted off. I think it’s – ready for this – the Ark of the Covenant. Yeah. So...

Castiel: I’m here, Sam. Where is the box?
Sam: I can’t believe you fell for that. That was the plot of Raiders, idiot.

[IlyaP]

17 hours ago, briantw said:

Yeah that’s an absurd statement to make one episode into the only spinoff they’ve made so far. 

And that episode was far better than any of the Star Wars prequels or sequels. 

@TormundsWoman has spoken

[IlyaP]

52 minutes ago, mormont said:

Folks:

Genuinely, there is an entire area of the site set aside to discuss HotD. Take it there.

You know, maybe it's just that I'm tired, but I *legitimately* thought that HotD was an anime series. I saw your comment and thought "Wait, Initial D has a sequel series?!" 

And then I realised you meant House of the Dragon. And I was a little sadder on the inside. 

[Veltigar]

Watched the first episode of Sandman yesterday. I won't say it's surprisingly good, because I saw all the positive reviews for it, but I am impressed that we seem to have two good big-budget fantasy series going at the same time.

Although poor Sandman is definitely going to suffer in comparison. The more I think about it, the more I believe that for pure hype building nothing beats a weekly release of episodes. This dump of content that Netflix does works for smaller shows, but you can never get the same buzz of anticipation if I start now while other posters have already finished all the episodes.

15 hours ago, dbunting said:

@Veltigar my spoiler only referenced the ASOIAF prophecy which the above poster shared in the open. I just didn't want to share Ep1 stuff openly the day after it aired, that's kinda rude IMO.

Ah yes, that makes sense okay. Thanks for your consideration. Now that I know it isn't ASOIAF/GOT stuff I'll be able to engage with it  

Spoiler

Interesting that it came from GRRM himself. I wouldn't be surprised if Martin works that prophecy in somewhere. After all, even if he claims that his general plan for the series will remain intact given all the backlash that I hear about GoT, he cannot help but be influenced by that reception so perhaps this laying out of bread crumbs is a smart attempt at interacting with the new series to mitigate some of the damage D&D inflicted on his work.

This is going to be extremely difficult to avoid GoT spoilers but I'll do my best regardless. 

17 hours ago, TormundsWoman said:

Brian, Brian, Brian...

I would like to lodge a formal complaint against Brian for badmouthing Star Wars prequels. Also one for looking down on the sequels!

I also want lodge a complaint against the two who liked his comment! I thought better of you twos Mark Antony and Veltigar. Persecuting Jar Jar Binks and Sebulba... Where is the love for Star Wars, the funnest franchise ever?!

 

Shame Shame Shame, Where is the damn bell?!

I feel much better now I expressed my full dissent. We can now comment on the Hot D properly.

I feel like you should also lodge a complaint against @dbunting and @RumHam for liking the post. If @Mark Antony and I have to go down, we're taking everyone with us

13 hours ago, Week said:

I now have to ask for all references of the show use the "Hot D" moniker. Please.

I thought everyone who used Hot D was just indicating their appraisal of Matt Smith.

 

[TheLastWolf]

Cidade de Deus is in my top 10 for editing, top 100 for best picture, director and cinematographer.

[Veltigar]

I watched a second episode of Sandman earlier and while I'd usually wait with posting until I see the other episode I'm meaning to watch earlier today, I just want to remark again how good this show is. If it goes on like this, then Hot D will have its work cut out for it if it wants to be the best fantasy show of 2022.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

My favorite podcast started with a cold open today asking what’s the most random sequel to a film and I have a nomination I’m not sure many people have seen: Duck You Sucker!, also titled A Fistful of Dynamite and Once Upon a Time… the Revolution. For the longest time I had no idea Once Upon a Time in the West and Once Upon a Time in America were part of a trilogy.

[Spockydog]

Quite a few reports saying Gaiman doesn't think Sandman is going to get renewed. 

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Spockydog said:

Quite a few reports saying Gaiman doesn't think Sandman is going to get renewed. 

Just read a very good Rolling Stone interview with him (the interviewer, Brian Hiatt, knows his stuff) where he sounded optimistic based on how well it has done.