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29 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

You don't need character development to create emotional beats or serve up a story where the action has narrative purpose. 


The Raid has almost no character development whatsoever and it's one of the greatest action films of all time. 

Raid is a good example and actually id suggest it could be improved with less character development in fact, those are the weakest bits. 
 

I think a curse of modern movie making is the urge to develop every character, give them a backstory, give them a reason to grow by the end. Sometimes you just want Arnie to go in an shoot some stuff and act like a hard bastard.

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Prey is not a good movie. It's better than any since Predator 2 but that isn't saying much. Predator was out 40 years ago, total Alpha male testosterone fest and still had better and more believable action than Prey did. 

Spoiler

I mean, the guy is able to shoot a hawk in flight? A bear eating a fresh kill and covered in blood can smell her from 30' above it when the wind would have blown her scent a mile away? And it leaves it's kill to chase her??? I mean how stupid was that sequence. It would have been believable had they had her walk up on it by accident, because then the bear would feel like it has to defend it's kill. 

2022 and the CGI looked worse than super mario on my nintendo did. Hell Donkey Kong looked and moved more realistic than some of these animals.

I do like the thought and premise of the movie and it's something that they could continue, going back in time farther or forward more. I also like the actors in it and think they did a good job. 

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So I’m halfway through Prey and I can’t see how any Mary Sue criticism could be made of this character. So far she has been almost entirely incompetent at hunting, messing up pretty much everything she attempted. Not sure what the opposite of a Mary Sue is.

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Raid is a good example and actually id suggest it could be improved with less character development in fact, those are the weakest bits.

Raid is the perfect example of an action movie I remember nothing about.  I'm simple incapable of remembering anything about movies of that sort, as with Ong Bak and Predator, lacking anything to hook into.  Good for you if you can, it's not for me.

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8 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

 

7 hours ago, dbunting said:
Spoiler

I mean, the guy is able to shoot a hawk in flight? A bear eating a fresh kill and covered in blood can smell her from 30' above it when the wind would have blown her scent a mile away? And it leaves it's kill to chase her??? I mean how stupid was that sequence. It would have been believable had they had her walk up on it by accident, because then the bear would feel like it has to defend it's kill. 

 

 

Spoiler
  • If your continued survival relies on your ability to kill dinner with your bow, you're going to develop mad skills or you're food for worms. Beyond that, I'd allow for a bit of artistic license. 
  • That's not how she gets the bear's attention.

 

7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

So I’m halfway through Prey and I can’t see how any Mary Sue criticism could be made of this character.

It can't. 

I love the criticisms from social media so-and-so's, "There's no way a 90 lb girl could blah, blah, blah, outrage, wank, wank, blah, blah." Ahem, the physicality delta between a Yautja and any human is so huge that it doesn't matter how big or masculine the would-be prey is. You stand your ground, you're dead. Go toe-to-toe, you're dead. You watch and learn and stay alive and employ some asymmetric warfare tactics and you might have a chance. 

Edited by Deadlines? What Deadlines?
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9 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Raid is the perfect example of an action movie I remember nothing about.  I'm simple incapable of remembering anything about movies of that sort, as with Ong Bak and Predator, lacking anything to hook into.  Good for you if you can, it's not for me.

 


Honestly it just sounds like you aren't particularly into action, taken on its own beat, as a craft. That's obviously totally fine we all like what we like, but it does mean HoI is right in a rather literal sense when he said you 'don't get' Predator - it's a movie about which the things it's really good at aren't of interest to you.  

 

 

It's also why I'd disagree with your point about Marvel movies- there is definitely a complaint that the action is either not emotionally significant or not properly connected emotionally, but pretty often the complaint is just that the action is just pants and doesn't make sense in the context of the movie. No-one thought that T'Challa taking on Killmonger at the end of the film was unnecessary or unemotional or any of that - it was just not well done. Wanda taking on her great, manipulative nemesis in WandaVision and using her lessons against her makes perfect sense as an emotionally carthartic ending- it was just all the flying and flinging weightless energy bolts at each other was wank. 

 

 

(edit: apologies if this came off a bit as jumping in on you over everything- your points just happened to touch onto a subject I enjoy talking about, this isn't intended to go WELL YOU'RE WRONG WELL YOU'RE WRONG the whole way I hope it doesn't come off that way)

 

But aaaanyway. I should watch Prey because either way by most accounts it's at least worth watching. Maybe this evening. 

Edited by polishgenius
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9 hours ago, polishgenius said:

Honestly it just sounds like you aren't particularly into action, taken on its own beat, as a craft.

Not true, I love good action because I think The Dark Knight and Fury Road are two of the best movies of that last couple of decades.  It's because they put story above all, and I can remember most of the action in both.  Action without story is simply does not inspire me to rewatch.

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2 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

Not true, I love good action because I think The Dark Knight and Fury Road are two of the best movies of that last couple of decades.  It's because they put story above all, and I can remember most of the action in both.  Action without story is simply does not inspire me to rewatch.

Fury Road was the opposite of what you describe.  

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35 minutes ago, SpaceChampion said:

Bullshit.

Yep.

An example of this is this absolutely fucking brilliant scene. This has basically no real dialogue, no spoken words worth a damn, but it has story in the fight scene aplenty. It shows each of the brides and their reaction to Max, the shifting alliances of Nux and Max, the desperation of Max and what he's willing to do, the...uh...fury of Furiosa, the characters of the brides, the general brutality of the world. The view of the brides and how desperate they are. Heck, right before this we get this brilliant view of the brides washing off which first has this kind of pervy sexualization, and then it switches almost immediately to them in non-slow motion, not sexy, grimy blah.

One of the things they did on this movie is have a wildlife documentary filmmaker edit the thing, because they needed to tell a compelling story with almost no dialog and all action sequences. There is absolutely a story, a plot, several themes - but there isn't talking.

 

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16 hours ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

 

  Hide contents
  • If your continued survival relies on your ability to kill dinner with your bow, you're going to develop mad skills or you're food for worms. Beyond that, I'd allow for a bit of artistic license. 
  • That's not how she gets the bear's attention.
Spoiler

They show the wind pick up and her being scared because of it. They cut to the bear who stops eating and sticks it's snout in the air and is visibly sniffing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

For what it’s worth I love Fury road but it’s ‘story’ is not really what makes it good.


To be fair one of the things that does put Fury Road over is how good the wordless storytelling is. It'd still be awesome if it wasn't but everything comes together and it's fucking brilliant. 


TDK is a different case for me (though of course some people disagree with me on this :P) in that the ATG driving scene aside I don't think the action would hold up that well without the story - it works in the context of the film and is an example of where really good story and characters can lift an action scene that's just okay, but it's not like great choreography or action craft or anything. 

But I'm a nerd who tends to think that while obviously related subjects and a lot of films overlap them, spectacle and action are different things and TDK is more the former than the latter. 

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7 minutes ago, polishgenius said:


To be fair one of the things that does put Fury Road over is how good the wordless storytelling is. It'd still be awesome if it wasn't but everything comes together and it's fucking brilliant. 
 

Yep. If it was just the insane action sequences (which Stephen Soderbergh is still amazed by) it would be a great film worth rewatching, but similar to some of the best kung fu movies like Drunken Master. 

But the action is especially good because it facilitates the rest of the story. It even tells a story within the action itself. An example is where you see a person fall off a vehicle early in the final sequence, then start climbing up, then in other parts you see him moving forward, and then you see him surprise Max. The 'surprise' is typical action faire, but what they do is actually show you that person but not focus on them so that it makes sense that they show up when they do. 

It's action choreography akin to the talents of Princess Bride or the best Jackie Chan or Wall-E, and it is absolutely great storytelling; it just doesn't happen to be 'telling'. 

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