Khrazz and Drogo and Belwas

[Moiraine Sedai]

Three men who are masters of the curved blade. The arahk, a curved blade favored by cavalry, are the weapons of choice by these men. The coordination required to use two blades at the same time for both offense and defense are certainly not easy to master.  Rank in order of skills (my opinion from Martin’s text)

1. Strong Belwas

2. Khrazz

3. Khal Drogo

 

[Craving Peaches]

1. Khal Drogo. Never lost a battle. His skills had to be really good as he was a good enough warrior to lead the largest khalasar in recent times.

2. Strong Belwas. Very skilled but I think Drogo is a tiny bit better. Claims he never lost a fight.

3. Khrazz. Certainly skilled but the weakest fighter in my opinion because he lost a fight and died due to this unlike the others.

Though the pits are life and death it seems more drawn out for entertainment. In a real battle everyone is trying to kill each other ASAP so you have less time to respond. So Khal Drogo wins in my opinion. Drogo also regularly fights against other skilled arakh wielders, I don't think the others have as much experience as he does in this area.

[Bowen 747]

Belwas is a gifted fighter.  He is effective in the fighting pits as well as outside of it.  The fight with Oznak impressed me.  A warrior who can dodge a moving horse and time the lance to block it in time is a gifted one.  He will put many a proud western knight in the dust before his story ends.  And crap on their sigils to boot. 

[Craving Peaches]

Another advantage I believe Khal Drogo would have over the pit fighters is experience fighting multiple opponents at once. Most of the pit fights seem to be one-on-one. So it might be better for Daenerys to use Strong Belwas in single combat scenarios.

[BlackLightning]

Isn't Belwas' body covered in scars from bladed weapons? Didn't Khrazz die in battle while wielding a arakh?

Drogo is dead but he never lost a battle nor did he die in one. And his body was not covered in scars either. Which makes the order...

1. Drogo
2. Belwas
3. Khrazz

On 8/3/2022 at 8:11 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Though the pits are life and death it seems more drawn out for entertainment. In a real battle everyone is trying to kill each other ASAP so you have less time to respond. So Khal Drogo wins in my opinion. Drogo also regularly fights against other skilled arakh wielders, I don't think the others have as much experience as he does in this area.

1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

Another advantage I believe Khal Drogo would have over the pit fighters is experience fighting multiple opponents at once. Most of the pit fights seem to be one-on-one. So it might be better for Daenerys to use Strong Belwas in single combat scenarios.

Good points.

 

[Craving Peaches]

43 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Isn't Belwas' body covered in scars from bladed weapons?

To be fair, Strong Belwas deliberately allows his opponent to cut him once before he finishes them. I'm not sure if he were in a proper free for all that he would still continue this practice. I think self-preservation would come first.

 

46 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Didn't Khrazz die in battle while wielding a arakh?

Yes, this is another point against Khrazz's skills compared to the others. He was confused by Barristan's armour. Qotho, a dothraki, also fought an armoured opponent but was quick to start exploiting the weak points (he goes for the head and joints I think). I can't remember if Barristan was wearing a helmet when he fought Khrazz. If he didn't have one then Khrazz was stupid not to try and use this. Though Barristan is a better fighter than Jorah.

[Moiraine Sedai]

Barristan was not wearing his helmet against Khrazz.  

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Barristan was not wearing his helmet against Khrazz.

Does he try to go for the head as Qotho did? I don't have the book on me at the moment.

[Darth Sidious]

Khrazz probably had alcohol before that fight. Whatever the case may be, he was fighting against a superb example of a knight. Belwas would not make the same mistake.  I would guess Drogo would be superior on horseback. 

[BlackLightning]

On 8/4/2022 at 10:25 AM, Craving Peaches said:

To be fair, Strong Belwas deliberately allows his opponent to cut him once before he finishes them. I'm not sure if he were in a proper free for all that he would still continue this practice. I think self-preservation would come first.

If he were to continue that practice, he might as well take his own arakh and slit his throat open.

It'd be suicide to do so.

11 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

I would guess Drogo would be superior on horseback. 

Given the nature of Dothraki warfare, I think that the Dothraki are more than capable warriors on horseback and on foot. Drogo would be superior all around.

At some point, they would have to dismount. If not, then at some point, they would be forcibly dismounted and would need to continue fighting.

We don't know how many battles Drogo fought and under what circumstances...but he won them all and the law of averages states that he had to have fought and won on foot eventually.

On 8/4/2022 at 11:50 AM, Craving Peaches said:

Does he try to go for the head as Qotho did? I don't have the book on me at the moment.

If memory serves me correctly, Khrazz did go for the head but Barristan just ended up dodging it.

[Craving Peaches]

14 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

If he were to continue that practice, he might as well take his own arakh and slit his throat open.

It'd be suicide to do so.

I don't think he would when faced with the reality of battle. I would assume that he would want to save his own life first and foremost. However the pit-fighters as a whole might have a warped perception of battle because they fight for entertainment. The Yunkai'i besieging Meereen have a strange attitude to warfare as well. If this is the case then Daenerys should keep him back as a bodyguard. Strong Belwas has beaten mounted warriors, but it was one-on-one and they weren't heavily armoured like a knight. I don't think he could replicate the same strategy in a real battle.

 

19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

If memory serves me correctly, Khrazz did go for the head but Barristan just ended up dodging it.

Yeah, I don't really think Khrazz had a way to win that one. Barristan is just too good. Khrazz also didn't have enough experience fighting men in heavy armour. This is a weakness that he, Belwas and probably Drogo all share. Heavy armour doesn't seem to be very common in Essos unless you count sellswords (not that it is suitable for the hot climate anyway). This could pose a challenge when Daenerys invades if she doesn't rely totally on Dragons.

I would still rate Strong Belwas more highly than Khrazz however. He has more impressive feats that we actually see. He fights at Astapor and Meereen and beats the Meereenese champion. Khrazz says he's the best but all we see him do is fight some throwaway pit fighters and then die to an actual warrior. I don't think Strong Belwas could have beat Barristan either (putting aside that they wouldn't anyway because they're friends) but I think he would cause more damage before falling.

[Craving Peaches]

Also with the pit fighters it is not impossible that their fights may be rigged for monetary purposes. So Khrazz etc. could just be fighting a load of nobodies who don't really pose a challenge. This could be if they are a 'favourite', it would make them an attraction that draws more crowds to the pits so the organisers are reluctant to put them in harm's way in case they die and it lowers attendance.

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

However the pit-fighters as a whole might have a warped perception of battle because they fight for entertainment.

Oh yes.

That one lady who fought a boar with a knife comes to mind. 

3 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Heavy armour doesn't seem to be very common in Essos unless you count sellswords

And not even all sellswords wear heavy armor.

The Golden Company are the only sellsword company in which everyone is outfitted with heavy armor. Maybe a good portion of the horses and elephant are armored too...

5 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

This could pose a challenge when Daenerys invades if she doesn't rely totally on Dragons.

She could always have armor made. She can do it for portions of her armies (like she can make the Mother's Men into an army of heavy infantry while leaving the Unsullied as light infantry) or her entire army. It would take time but I'm thinking that there is going to be a time skip before the fall of the Wall occurs either in the epilogue of Winds or the prologue of Dream.

[Craving Peaches]

21 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

She could always have armor made. She can do it for portions of her armies (like she can make the Mother's Men into an army of heavy infantry while leaving the Unsullied as light infantry) or her entire army. It would take time but I'm thinking that there is going to be a time skip before the fall of the Wall occurs either in the epilogue of Winds or the prologue of Dream.

Yes, I think Barristan is also training some promising recruits to be knights. I would imagine that Daenerys would have some native Westerosi support so the Essosi members of her army would be able to familiarise themselves with Westerosi armour and battle tactics through friendly training exercises and the like. I think supplying the armies will be the biggest challenge.

Now that I think about it, Strong Belwas probably greater familiarity with heavy armour than I stated previously, as he travelled with Barristan for quite a while.

[Wm Portnoy]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:05 PM, BlackLightning said:

She could always have armor made. She can do it for portions of her armies (like she can make the Mother's Men into an army of heavy infantry while leaving the Unsullied as light infantry) or her entire army. It would take time but I'm thinking that there is going to be a time skip before the fall of the Wall occurs either in the epilogue of Winds or the prologue of Dream.

Very true.  With all the resources of Essos at her disposal, nothing will stop Daenerys from properly outfitting her military with what they need. 

[Wm Portnoy]

On 8/2/2022 at 1:12 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Three men who are masters of the curved blade. The arahk, a curved blade favored by cavalry, are the weapons of choice by these men. The coordination required to use two blades at the same time for both offense and defense are certainly not easy to master.  Rank in order of skills (my opinion from Martin’s text)

1. Strong Belwas

2. Khrazz

3. Khal Drogo

 

Khrazz was young and inexperienced.  Belwas has had a more rounded experience from which to draw from.  I am sure the giant eunuch had fought armored as well as mounted opponents before.  And won.  His fight with Oznak zo Phal is proof that he has experience with mounted and armored opponents. 

[Darth Sidious]

On 8/5/2022 at 2:02 PM, Craving Peaches said:

Also with the pit fighters it is not impossible that their fights may be rigged for monetary purposes. So Khrazz etc. could just be fighting a load of nobodies who don't really pose a challenge. This could be if they are a 'favourite', it would make them an attraction that draws more crowds to the pits so the organisers are reluctant to put them in harm's way in case they die and it lowers attendance.

In the smaller pits, yes, perhaps the fights are rigged. But the “reputable” pits, if there is such a thing considering the immorality of slavery, rigging would be outlawed. 

[Craving Peaches]

4 hours ago, Darth Sidious said:

In the smaller pits, yes, perhaps the fights are rigged. But the “reputable” pits, if there is such a thing considering the immorality of slavery, rigging would be outlawed.

That is certainly possible, but I would think it very unlikely. While the pits do have cultural and perhaps religious significance to the people of Meereen, I would assume that the pit owners' priority would be making money, and they can do this more effectively if they rig the pits to draw larger crowds. Rigging could be illegal in Meereenese law, but I bet the officials would turn a blind eye to the practice, as it probably benefits them as well (they could be bribed or make money through betting on competitors rigged to win). Given their lack of morals in other areas, I don't think the Great Masters would loose any sleep over 'cheating' in the pit fights, but it could happen. Though it would make them even bigger hypocrites.