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The Doom of Ramsay Snow


Chista
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a thought came to me while rereading a storm of swords. i came by this passage at the end of Arya1
 
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they thought they were hunting her, she knew with all the strange sharp certainty of dreams, but they were wrong. She was hunting them

we know from the old bear that "the things we love destroy us everytime". hunting was what King Robert loved and it killed him. and grrm seems to kill his characters while protecting people they love, or doing the things they love. like the way Eddard confessed committing treason before he died, because he was threatened with Sansa's life. we know that

 Ramsay Snow loves hunting, though his is a much uglier type. the sentence i quoted reminds me of Ramsay and his hunting. could his downfall be something close to this? while he thinks he is hunting another victim while in truth he is being hunted? by Arya, maybe through Nymeria? though i don't see how her pack could get so far north, or she herself. it is only this sentence that gives me such an idea. i wanted to see how you fellow asoiaf inthusiasts think about this somewhat theory. i've also heard theories where The Faceless Men give Arya the job of killing Cercei, which doesn't make sense imo because she knows Cercei and FM don't kill people they know. yet there is s1 in westeros who she doesn't know, whose victim is asumed to be heading to braavos in the winds by asoiaf fans. if the theory is that Arya can't leave the FM that easily and the most likely way she leaves them for westeros is getting a job to kill someone there (i heard that in YouTube), why not Ramsay? what if Jeyne Pool goes to braavos in winds and asks the FM to kill the monster she was forced to marry? and Arya doesn't know Ramsay, yet it's very unlikely they'd send an acolyte for something like that but it's at the very least more likely than Cercei. also Jeyne going to the FM is unlikely in the first place. anyways. again i'd like to hear what you guys think

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It could happen. Though I think Jon and Ghost are closer geographically speaking. What would Jeyne have to pay the Faceless men to get them to kill Ramsay?

I'm not sure the Faceless Men would send Arya to kill anyone with a connection to her family. Killing Ramsay might be considered too personal as he is her brother's enemy. I think they are aware Arya has not let go of her past self.

I think there is a greater chance of Arya just happening to kill Ramsay while in the mind of Nymeria than being sent by the Faceless men to kill him. Ramsay would delight in hunting the Stark sigil.

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I bet you're right. It feels appropriate that Arya would kill Ramsay. 

Ramsay thinks he has married (and tortured) Arya and GRRM likes irony. So the real Arya killing Ramsay would be good turnabout-is-fair-play. Also, Jon Snow thinks he has to intervene to save Arya, and it seems like something GRRM would do to show that the maiden in distress can save herself without a knight swooping in to rescue her. 

Ramsay is (from the reader's perspective) the "bad" Snow, while Jon is the "good" Snow. So there is something about the balance of forces that Arya would love one Snow and kill the other. 

One weird angle is that Jeyne Poole is sort of a twin to Sansa while Beth Cassel is a twin to Arya. I believe Jeyne represents the sacred pool in the gods wood while Beth represents the castle of Winterfell. So I wouldn't bet against Beth returning to the stage in some form to participate in the downfall of Ramsay.

As for the hunting symbolism, we saw Roose Bolton go out and hunt down a pack of wolves when he was in residence at Harrenhal. He wanted the skins of the full-grown wolves made into a bed cover and the skins of two wolf pups made into gloves. This is intriguing symbolism because of the "Hand of the King" motif, Jaime's gold hand, lobstered gauntlets, Jorah giving gloves to the Widow of the Waterfront, etc. We might think Roose has been victorious over the wolves by killing them, but it may be that the wolves somehow gain power when they become gloves and cover (control?) his hands. (Is GRRM a fan of "The Red Shoes" by any chance? Or is it the kind of love-hate relationship between a skinchanger and the animal he targets?)

Do the two pups made into gloves represent the youngest Starks, Bran and Rickon, who Ramsay claimed were killed by Theon? In actuality, the miller's boys were killed (possibly representing Ramsay, whose mother was a miller's wife). As I recall, Roose admits knowing that the two youngest Starks escaped, in spite of the story put forward by Theon. We know that the Bolton's have traditionally sought to flay Starks and turn their skins into cloaks. What happens when they succeed in doing so?

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57 minutes ago, Seams said:

What happens when they succeed in doing so?

I read a theory ages ago that it let them steal the Starks skin-changing abilities. Perhaps this comes with the cost of the skinned Stark's 'essence' somehow influencing the Bolton wearing the cloak.

With regards to Jeyne

Spoilers for The Winds of Winter sample chapters:

Spoiler

So Jeyne may loose her nose to frostbite. The nose is very important to wolves and dogs when tracking. So this could suggest that the parties involved will have difficulty locating each other. For example, Ramsay won't find Jeyne again or the Jeyne Arya mixup will last longer. Could be symbolic of how both Jeyne and Arya have 'lost their way'.

 

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2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

What would Jeyne have to pay the Faceless men to get them to kill Ramsay?

no idea. i guess the only thing she would have to give would be herself, and there's no way i could see her become a FM. i agree with all you said there. most likely even if she goes to the house of black and white they'd send her someplace safe to stay and have a happy normal life. i hope.

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3 minutes ago, Chista said:

most likely even if she goes to the house of black and white they'd send her someplace safe to stay and have a happy normal life. i hope.

I hope so too. Poor Jeyne deserves to be happy and safe.

I was thinking a little more about Arya killing Ramsay and perhaps she could kill him by skin-changing into his hunting dogs instead of Nymeria.

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I doubt Ramsay will survive long enough for Arya to have a shot at him.  He is already surrounded by enemies at Winterfell with more (Stannis's army) on the way.  The main thing holding the Northerners at Winterfell back is fear of retaliation against Arya (really Jeyne Poole).  Once it becomes apparent that she's gone, his existence becomes quite perilous.  It's also possible he gets killed hunting Jeyne and/or Theon.  If he somehow survives, it will probably be because he has holed up at the Dreadfort.

I don't think the FM are going to send Arya to kill Ramsay, Cersei, or anyone else, especially in Westeros.  She has insufficient training and I doubt they trust her.  I don't even think they have any intention to make her an assassin; her training is more the sort of thing you would give a spy or investigator.  I expect that, in exchange for being able to leave the FM, she will have to promise to provide help and information if needed.

The person who has the most to fear from Jeyne is Littlefinger.  GRRM didn't put whip marks on her back for kicks.  He has something planned, and all clues lead to Baelish, which means Sansa will be involved.

If Jeyne goes to Braavos, she will probably meet Arya there.  It's a logical meeting, and Arya is the only POV there in any event

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13 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I hope so too. Poor Jeyne deserves to be happy and safe.

If she somehow outlives Roose, his wife and Ramsay she as a last member of House Bolton should inherit Dreadfort. So there is a chance that Jeyne will become very rich and powerful. But totally another thing is would that make her happy and keep her safe.

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4 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

If she somehow outlives Roose, his wife and Ramsay she as a last member of House Bolton should inherit Dreadfort. So there is a chance that Jeyne will become very rich and powerful. But totally another thing is would that make her happy and keep her safe.

Yes, I don't think she would want the Dreadfort. Perhaps the Iron Bank could find something for her to do. She is a steward's daughter so I'm assuming she would be literate and could do some sums.

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On 8/8/2022 at 7:13 AM, Chista said:
 
a thought came to me while rereading a storm of swords. i came by this passage at the end of Arya1
 

we know from the old bear that "the things we love destroy us everytime". hunting was what King Robert loved and it killed him. and grrm seems to kill his characters while protecting people they love, or doing the things they love. like the way Eddard confessed committing treason before he died, because he was threatened with Sansa's life. we know that

 Ramsay Snow loves hunting, though his is a much uglier type. the sentence i quoted reminds me of Ramsay and his hunting. could his downfall be something close to this? while he thinks he is hunting another victim while in truth he is being hunted? by Arya, maybe through Nymeria? though i don't see how her pack could get so far north, or she herself. it is only this sentence that gives me such an idea. i wanted to see how you fellow asoiaf inthusiasts think about this somewhat theory. i've also heard theories where The Faceless Men give Arya the job of killing Cercei, which doesn't make sense imo because she knows Cercei and FM don't kill people they know. yet there is s1 in westeros who she doesn't know, whose victim is asumed to be heading to braavos in the winds by asoiaf fans. if the theory is that Arya can't leave the FM that easily and the most likely way she leaves them for westeros is getting a job to kill someone there (i heard that in YouTube), why not Ramsay? what if Jeyne Pool goes to braavos in winds and asks the FM to kill the monster she was forced to marry? and Arya doesn't know Ramsay, yet it's very unlikely they'd send an acolyte for something like that but it's at the very least more likely than Cercei. also Jeyne going to the FM is unlikely in the first place. anyways. again i'd like to hear what you guys think

He is being hunted by Roose, or at least, the creature that currently calls itself Roose. Ramsay will be killed, skinned (aka, flayed) and the creature will wear his skin to become Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, grieving for the sudden loss of his beloved father. And this will not be the first time that the creature has served as Lord/King of Winterfell.

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

He is being hunted by Roose, or at least, the creature that currently calls itself Roose. Ramsay will be killed, skinned (aka, flayed) and the creature will wear his skin to become Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, grieving for the sudden loss of his beloved father. And this will not be the first time that the creature has served as Lord/King of Winterfell.

I really want this (theory) to be true but I feel like come the next book we will sadly be disappointed.

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16 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really want this (theory) to be true but I feel like come the next book we will sadly be disappointed.

Eh, just wait for Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers and leeching himself. Some people might even notice that his eyes are just a bit paler than they were, but surely that's because of all that crying over his dear departed father.

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53 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Eh, just wait for Roose to die, and then see if Ramsay doesn't suddenly calm down, start speaking in whispers and leeching himself. Some people might even notice that his eyes are just a bit paler than they were, but surely that's because of all that crying over his dear departed father.

I can only hope...

Though I think that if Ramsay calmed down all of a sudden then people might be a little suspicious. He should make it a gradual thing.

What would Roose do if Ramsay died before him though? Surely he has a backup plan.

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On 8/8/2022 at 9:37 PM, Nevets said:

I doubt Ramsay will survive long enough for Arya to have a shot at him. 

While still working on GoT, George wanted to build up Ramsay's dogs because they were supposed to fight the Stark direwolves "a season or two down the line". Maybe he has something similar in mind for the books as well?

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He's an inverse Jon who exists for Jon to destroy. It's symbolic, Jon destroying that part of himself he fears and keeps from ever embracing (the bastard yearning for status). Styles make fights, and Ramsay is a gutter brute by design to clash against Jon's trained swordsmanship. He's got dogs because Jon has a wolf, so they can have a fight too.

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10 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

He's an inverse Jon who exists for Jon to destroy. It's symbolic, Jon destroying that part of himself he fears and keeps from ever embracing (the bastard yearning for status). Styles make fights, and Ramsay is a gutter brute by design to clash against Jon's trained swordsmanship. He's got dogs because Jon has a wolf, so they can have a fight too.

So Ramsay is Jon's shadow? I like this idea. But in order for Jon to progress he cannot just fight and destroy Ramsay, he has to properly acknowledge his hidden immoral desires and recognise them as a part of himself fully so that they are no longer hidden and rejected...or something. So that Jon can grow and move on. I can't remember the full process. This is a very interesting parallel.

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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

So Ramsay is Jon's shadow? I like this idea. But in order for Jon to progress he cannot just fight and destroy Ramsay, he has to properly acknowledge his hidden immoral desires and recognise them as a part of himself fully so that they are no longer hidden and rejected...or something. So that Jon can grow and move on. I can't remember the full process. This is a very interesting parallel.

Jon will be hesitant/scared to take the North even though he should because he will be the best person in the best position to lead it, because it will be like embracing those disloyal desires and people will say he's a bastard grasping for what he's always jealously coveted and not entitled to.

When he confronts Ramsay it will become apparent that Ramsay is all those things and he's nothing like Ramsay, and that this refusal to embrace leadership is basically a childish (kill the child let the man be born stuff) hang up that he just has to get past for everyone's sake, what outsider's think be damned. I expect when he kills Ramsay it'll be like killing that childish portion of himself in a no looking back now sort of situation.

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On 8/10/2022 at 10:51 AM, Craving Peaches said:

I can only hope...

Though I think that if Ramsay calmed down all of a sudden then people might be a little suspicious. He should make it a gradual thing.

What would Roose do if Ramsay died before him though? Surely he has a backup plan.

Eh, grief can change people. So if there was a sudden change in Rams, they would just chalk it up to that. And what would anyone be suspicious of? That this man is actually an ages-old skinchanger from the Age of Heroes? How preposterous.

His backup plan is Walda. And if Walda and her sons are dead, he takes a new wife. He has plenty of time.

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