Jump to content

so what's up with Brienne and Jaime?


Recommended Posts

I assumed the word she said was "Arya" since she had knowledge of Arya being seen at Saltpans, but apparently she said "sword"? Why would she do that, that's so uncharacteristic.

Also, what's up with Jaime, he has only one hand, he knows the Hound is unpredictable and would have no chance against him in battle, why go alone? He could have men following from a distance.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/6425

https://i.imgur.com/KbXpTiK.png

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wasn't she forced to choose either "sword" or "noose"?

yes, but she seems like someone who would sacrifice herself rather than deceive and betray Jaime.

“Why?” he said. “You will tell me why. He treated you kindly, gave you a rainbow cloak. Why would you kill him?”
“I never did. I would have died for him.”
...
“I asked him why he kept her close, if he thought her so grotesque. He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, we don't know the full story yet. Things might not be as straightforward as they seem.

ok, but 2nd question is what's up with Jaime going alone. He heard about the fake Hound's rampage

"All that remains of Saltpans is the castle, and old Ser Quincy so frightened he would not open his gates, but shouted down at us from his battlements. The rest is bones and ashes. A whole town. The Hound put the buildings to the torch and the people to the sword and
rode off laughing. The women... you would not believe what he did to some of the women. I will not speak of it at table. It made me sick to see.”
“I cried when I heard,” said Lady Amerei.
Jaime sipped his wine. “What makes you certain it was the Hound?” What they were describing sounded more like Gregor’s work than Sandor’s. Sandor had been hard and brutal, yes, but it was his big brother who was the real monster in House Clegane."

so either

1. He believes it's the Hound who totally lost it (and he has accomplices too, "whilst Clegane and his mad dogs ravaged through his town")

2. He believes there's something amiss with Brienne's story

and in both cases it makes no sense going alone, there was also that letter delivered by Qyburn.

Edited by ShadowFaction
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Jaime is expecting a meeting or exchange of some kind.  He is probably planning to talk his way out of any trouble, or if necessary, fight his way out with Brienne's help.  He is going alone because Brienne won't take him otherwise, and he thinks Sansa is in danger.  Also, while he would doubtless prefer to live, by this point, dying would probably not upset him much.

Brienne is doing it to save Podrick and Hyle from the noose.  Dying doesn't necessarily bother her, but she doesn't want to take anyone with her.  

I doubt Jaime is dead.  His body hasn't shown up, and the BwB have no reason to hide it.  They are probably saving him for something, maybe a rescue of the Frey prisoners.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ShadowFaction said:

there's Podrick and Ser Hyle who would be held as hostages, I know, but still uncharacteristic.

She's doing it for them. The whole situation is a catch 22. She either has to betray one friend or the other.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He was probably unable to arrange for anyone to follow him at a distance, or decided that having men follow him at a distance in darkness through countryside they were unfamiliar with wouldn't work, and could ruin everything if they were noticed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, sifth said:

She's doing it for them. The whole situation is a catch 22. She either has to betray one friend or the other.

so trolley problem, thing is doing nothing isn't betrayal, deceiving Jaime with a false story to entrap him is, and Brienne just seems incapable of such dishonesty, she could have accepted (any vow taken under such circumstances can be discarded) and then told Jaime of the situation to try to arrange something.

7 hours ago, Nevets said:

I think Jaime is expecting a meeting or exchange of some kind.  He is probably planning to talk his way out of any trouble, or if necessary, fight his way out with Brienne's help.  He is going alone because Brienne won't take him otherwise, and he thinks Sansa is in danger.  Also, while he would doubtless prefer to live, by this point, dying would probably not upset him much.

still, he heard of "Clegane and his mad dogs" who "put the buildings to the torch and the people to the sword", going alone to face such people would be pure madness, clearly you can't negotiate to someone like that and he'd be completely helpless against them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, ShadowFaction said:

so trolley problem, thing is doing nothing isn't betrayal, deceiving Jaime with a false story to entrap him is, and Brienne just seems incapable of such dishonesty, she could have accepted (any vow taken under such circumstances can be discarded) and then told Jaime of the situation to try to arrange something.

 

Whose to say she doesn't do just that. We know very little about what's going to happen. She can't tell him directly because the Brotherhood has spies everywhere, but that doesn't mean she wont try to tell him another way. Heck she might very well have told him, when they were alone and he agreed to go with her, to keep up appearances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Whose to say she doesn't do just that. We know very little about what's going to happen. She can't tell him directly because the Brotherhood has spies everywhere, but that doesn't mean she wont try to tell him another way. Heck she might very well have told him, when they were alone and he agreed to go with her, to keep up appearances.

It's the little we know that doesn't look good, no hint of anything else but betrayal. Brienne is being evasive and telling lies to get Jaime to follow, while previously portrayed as honest to a fault

“She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”
... “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”
“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”
“The girl. Have you found her?”
“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth. “Where is she?”
“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

and he went alone, leaving no word.

“No. Jaime is still in the riverlands, somewhere.”
“Somewhere?” She did not like the sound of that. “He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood’s surrender,” said her uncle, “but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman.”
“A woman?” Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. “What woman? Why? Where did they go?”
“No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne.”

he was shown to be inept at practically everything without his dominant hand, there's nothing he can do but talk, and excuses/further promises would be totally useless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, ShadowFaction said:

he was shown to be inept at practically everything without his dominant hand, there's nothing he can do but talk, and excuses/further promises would be totally useless.

Sorry, but the whole thing feels like a red herring to me. We just know too little, but we know GRRM likes to mess with his readers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ShadowFaction said:

so trolley problem, thing is doing nothing isn't betrayal, deceiving Jaime with a false story to entrap him is, and Brienne just seems incapable of such dishonesty, she could have accepted (any vow taken under such circumstances can be discarded) and then told Jaime of the situation to try to arrange something.

still, he heard of "Clegane and his mad dogs" who "put the buildings to the torch and the people to the sword", going alone to face such people would be pure madness, clearly you can't negotiate to someone like that and he'd be completely helpless against them.

We have no idea what Jaime and Brienne discussed after they left.  They can't talk around Jaime's men.  Remember, Jaime is hiding Brienne's search for Sansa from his own side.  Which may be why no tail; they might recognize Sansa and insist on returning her to KL.  

I think he also may be skeptical about the Hound's involvement at Saltpans.  He's known the guy for years and it doesn't sound right to him.  Which doesn't exclude threats against Sansa. She is after all a wanted fugitive with a price on her head.  

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but the whole thing feels like a red herring to me. We just know too little, but we know GRRM likes to mess with his readers.

Well, we know that neither the Hound nor Sansa is going to be there.  We can also surmise that Jaime is still alive, for now.  There is no body and no reason to hide one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nevets said:

We have no idea what Jaime and Brienne discussed after they left.  They can't talk around Jaime's men.  Remember, Jaime is hiding Brienne's search for Sansa from his own side.  Which may be why no tail; they might recognize Sansa and insist on returning her to KL. 

He was still lied to, we can assume the conversation was private, having dismissed the sentries since Kevan doesn't mention anything of the Hound. Regarding Sansa, he could still overrule them even if they insisted (assuming they recognized her), he already harbored resentments and was unsure what to do. With a tail he could retain control over the situation, alone he could be restrained and put into chains. He was already a captive, and that led to the loss of his hand, I don't think he'd be eager to find himself in a helpless situation again.

Edited by ShadowFaction
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ShadowFaction said:

It's the little we know that doesn't look good, no hint of anything else but betrayal. Brienne is being evasive and telling lies to get Jaime to follow, while previously portrayed as honest to a fault

“She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”
... “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”
“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”
“The girl. Have you found her?”
“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth. “Where is she?”
“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

and he went alone, leaving no word.

“No. Jaime is still in the riverlands, somewhere.”
“Somewhere?” She did not like the sound of that. “He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood’s surrender,” said her uncle, “but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman.”
“A woman?” Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. “What woman? Why? Where did they go?”
“No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne.”

he was shown to be inept at practically everything without his dominant hand, there's nothing he can do but talk, and excuses/further promises would be totally useless.

This answers the second question in your OP. "You will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her." More than likely, Jaime thinks he can cut a deal with Sandor (a royal pardon in exchange for Sansa, maybe?). But this story is so full of holes that Jaime will likely see through it long before the day's ride is out. From there, the plot could follow any number of paths.

As to the first, dropping Ary's name would not have changed anything because LSH already knows Arya is, or was, alive due to the numerous BWB members who saw her, including Lem and his broken nose. And if they don't know for sure, they would probably guess that Sandor has Arya, since he was long gone from King's Landing when Sansa disappeared.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

As to the first, dropping Ary's name would not have changed anything because LSH already knows Arya is, or was, alive due to the numerous BWB members who saw her, including Lem and his broken nose. And if they don't know for sure, they would probably guess that Sandor has Arya, since he was long gone from King's Landing when Sansa disappeared.

They presume Sandor is dead though.

“It was Rorge I killed. He took the helm from Clegane’s grave, and you stole it off his corpse.”
“I didn’t hear him objecting.”
Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. “Is this true? A dead man’s helm? Have we fallen that low?”
The big man scowled at him. “It’s good steel.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

He tried to count the pennies nailed to the old oak, but there were too many of them and he kept losing count. What's that all about? The Blackwood boy would tell him if he asked, but that would spoil the mystery.

ADwD, Jaime I

My answer to the question of why Jaime went with Brienne is: Why did Lucy go into the wardrobe, and why did she follow Mr. Tumnus? Jaime is Lucy in this scenario. The Pennytree is a gate to the Underworld.

Also, I strongly suspect that Ser Ilyn Payne will follow Jaime and help him to survive whatever trap may be ahead. Podrick Payne just saved Brienne when she went to The Whispers in search of Sansa; this quest by Jaime could be similar to the events in Brienne's quest.

Ser Ilyn is also a symbolic Lannister direwolf - a silent one, like Ghost. Although Summer saved Jon at the Queenscrown, allowing him to escape the Free Folk. Ser Ilyn may play a similar role. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Seams said:

My answer to the question of why Jaime went with Brienne is: Why did Lucy go into the wardrobe, and why did she follow Mr. Tumnus? Jaime is Lucy in this scenario. The Pennytree is a gate to the Underworld.

Also, I strongly suspect that Ser Ilyn Payne will follow Jaime and help him to survive whatever trap may be ahead. Podrick Payne just saved Brienne when she went to The Whispers in search of Sansa; this quest by Jaime could be similar to the events in Brienne's quest.

Ser Ilyn is also a symbolic Lannister direwolf - a silent one, like Ghost. Although Summer saved Jon at the Queenscrown, allowing him to escape the Free Folk. Ser Ilyn may play a similar role. 

 

Ser IIyn isn't mentioned once in James ADWD chapter, which is something I always found strange. I always assumed he was left at River Run, for some reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...