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Catelyn’s sin


Moiraine Sedai
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On 8/14/2022 at 8:01 PM, BlackLightning said:

That's what she intended to do.

But she needed to a place to hold Tyrion until the time for such trial came.

Going westward towards Riverrun meant that Catelyn would be running into search parties and outriders. She only had Rodrick Cassel with her...he'd be easily overpowered/killed and Catelyn would have lost custody of Tyrion and probably gotten herself taken captive too. It could be done but it was too risky given that it was so predictable.

Going to Winterfell means that Catelyn is making it harder for herself to plead her case to King Robert. It's too far away.

Going directly to King's Landing with Tyrion as a captive without having the king's personal invitation of safe passage is insane. Not an option, never was a option.

Going to the Eyrie was both her best option and a stroke of genius. It's far from Tywin, it's not far from the Crossroads and it's close enough to Robert. It also is a relatively neutral location.

I meant, she should not take it upon herself to place Tyrion under arrest. 

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9 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hes far from Aerys or Joffrey, but hes far from acceptable either.

Of course he's acceptable.  The only trouble in Robert's reign is when Balon Greyjoy reaches for a crown.  Who does he lock up without trial or dispossess of their estates on a whim, what customary rights and privileges does he revoke and who does he oppress, what people's revolts or discontent is there?  No one, no one, none, no one and none.

He has his flaws but tyranny is not one of them. 

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Thats funny, right? I thought that too. But letting a suspected attempted murderer, and with possible information about the murder of the greatest lord (ever?) go because he wants a blowjob? (we all know Cersei isnt giving it up)
Its not that hes right, its that Tyrions innocent. But to disregard the law like that, (because he thinks he can, like Aerys, as if he Aerys wasnt touchable) when dealing with highly sensitive issues is straight tyrannical. And if there was a trial? Then everything in the world would be set right, LF and Joff would go down hard, thats another thing thats funny.

You realise there would not be a trial, yes?  Catelyn only took Tyrion because of LF's lies and manipulation.  She and Ned were both led by LF to suspect Tyrion but agreed they should do nothing until Ned had some proof.  They never have any and never could because Tyrion is innocent.  The catnapping came about because Cat's visit to KL was in secret and Cat believed Tyrion divulging it to his siblings would lead to Ned being in(even more) danger from the Lannisters.  All there is against Tyrion is a malicious allegation with zero proof behind it.  Tyrion absolutely should be released because he never should have been arrested.

Funny but I always though arresting people without any grounds other than malicious intent or political calculation was tyrannical, not setting them free.

If you're looking for 21st or even 20th century justice norms then you'll be disappointed in fantasy, historical fiction or history in any period other than the 21st or 20th century.  Trying to prevent two of his most powerful noble families from starting a feud is pretty common sense even if it offends your notion of the purity of the law.  He's still right about releasing Tyrion though.

You would be better off focusing on Robert ignoring Jaime ordering five of Ned's men cut down in the streets of KL but this seems pretty realistic for the faux-medieval world - nobles have private armies and they quarrel and fight, the king tells them to settle down and binds them to keep the King's peace, things settle down until they flare up again.  It's a flawed system but it's not tyrannical.

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10 hours ago, sifth said:

You mean other than try to kill Aray's friend and help his mother murder Lady. Nope Joff was great. You'd have to be blind, deff and dumb not to know, Joff was a psychopath

So, not to defend Joffrey, (although I'm afraid I'm doing that) but he didn't kill Lady (neither did Cersei if you wanna get technical) As for trying to kill Mycha and possibly Arya, he's a stupid drunk pre teen. What 12 year old on his first date with a cute girl and a wineskin acts rationally?

Before ascending Joffrey seems to have screws loose, no doubt (I think he gets worse and worse in the next two books), but Petyr and Tywin think that the child just needs to be raised by not Cersei and he may come out fine

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Ned was also trying to get his girls to safety, when Cersei's villain plot armor kicked in

Far to late. The best time would be after Tyrions abduction and the end of Neds investigation, before he visited Gendry and broke his leg. Or after that. Not during the climax of the altercation.

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Cersei's villain plot armor kicked in and her "master plan" of having a drunken Robert randomly get killed by a wild animal, just sort of happened. I mean imagine if Robert simply choose to hut a deer..................her truly genius plan would have been ruined.

Lancel would make sure that Robert hunts boar, and with the cocktail Robert was chugging it's obvious Robert will choose the more dangerous path. 

Or perhaps Lancel would just adjust his kings stirrups and watch the driver under influence get into an accident.

 

49 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

He has his flaws but tyranny is not one of them. 

His best friends son, if he found out who his parents were he'd kill them all. I'm not sure why you don't think he dabbles in tyranny.

51 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

You realise there would not be a trial, yes?  Catelyn only took Tyrion because of LF's lies and manipulation.  She and Ned were both led by LF to suspect Tyrion but agreed they should do nothing until Ned had some proof. 

But then Catelyn changed her mind

52 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The catnapping came about because Cat's visit to KL was in secret and Cat believed Tyrion divulging it to his siblings would lead to Ned being in(even more) danger from the Lannisters.  All there is against Tyrion is a malicious allegation with zero proof behind it.  

There's the knife. That's all the evidence the court would need to find Petyr guilty of obstruction and Joffrey of attempt murder.

53 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Tyrion absolutely should be released because he never should have been arrested.

A suspected attempted murder acts like nothing is wrong despite being pointed by two of the kings direct counselors, one being the mater of whisperers.

Does justice stop because Tyrion has a famous last name?

55 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Funny but I always though arresting people without any grounds other than malicious intent or political calculation was tyrannical, not setting them free

Funny how it works on opposite sides of the spectrum too

56 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you're looking for 21st or even 20th century justice norms then you'll be disappointed in fantasy, historical fiction or history in any period other than the 21st or 20th century.  Trying to prevent two of his most powerful noble families from starting a feud is pretty common sense even if it offends your notion of the purity of the law. 

History is filled with disappointments. And tyrants.

(Reminds me of Bleeding Kansas, 19th century, Nebraska and Kansas vote their destiny. Nebraska votes slavery, ok, and Kansas votes... Well since all the Nebraskans walked across state lines and voted in drove then it looks like Kansas votes slavery too. Despite more votes coming in yes then residents of Kansas. So Congress makes them both slave states, and expects everyone to be cool. The last thing they want is civil war right? Well fuck that, time for fire&blood, time for bleeding Kansas. The purity of laws matter, so does common morality. And then of course total civil war directly follows in the years to come.)

But he didn't prevent anything, right? Westeros is in the middle of it's worst war in it's 10k year history 

59 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

He's still right about releasing Tyrion though.

You would be better off focusing on Robert ignoring Jaime ordering five of Ned's men cut down in the streets of KL but this seems pretty realistic for the faux-medieval world - nobles have private armies and they quarrel and fight, the king tells them to settle down and binds them to keep the King's peace, things settle down until they flare up again.  It's a flawed system but it's not tyrannical.

I feel bad for Jory and them, but as Duncan eloquently puts it, it's just a pissing match. 

The arrest of Tyrion is the catalyst of Roberts reign, and he handled it so spectacularly horrendously.

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2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

His best friends son, if he found out who his parents were he'd kill them all. I'm not sure why you don't think he dabbles in tyranny.

Can you point to any examples in the series where Robert is regarded as a tyrant?  By anyone.  He was king for fifteen years so there should be plenty of voices or examples for you to choose from.  I wonder why not.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But then Catelyn changed her mind

Of course she changed her mind.  It has nothing to do with having any evidence and was all about the danger Ned might be in if the Lannisters became suspicious of her secret visit.  Which they were bound to as it was suspicious, lol.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's the knife. That's all the evidence the court would need to find Petyr guilty of obstruction and Joffrey of attempt murder.

Right, right.  Petyr and Joffrey. Not Tyrion.  People Robert does not suspect of any wrongdoing and whom he does not put his thumb on the scales of justice to protect.  Why should Tyrion not be released though?  What tyranny is involved here?

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

A suspected attempted murder acts like nothing is wrong despite being pointed by two of the kings direct counselors, one being the mater of whisperers.

Does justice stop because Tyrion has a famous last name?

If there was evidence Ned would have planned to arrest him.  Because there isn't he doesn't.

It's grounds for an investigation but if all that turns up is a false accusation why should Tyrion be imprisoned?

It's a medieval fantasy world, not the 21st century.  You don't arrest the Queen's brother on an unsubstantiated allegation.  More accurately, justice could be stopped because of Tyrion's last name but Robert actually moves to stop a miscarriage of justice and unlawful imprisonment because of the family's importance. 

All that is turned on it's head when Tyrion is framed for Joffrey's murder which is the sort of injustice and "tyranny" you should be worked up about, not sloppy old Bobby B.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Funny how it works on opposite sides of the spectrum too

If only there was a guilty man being set free for us to get worked up about.

Funny how someone can be so disappointed by an innocent man being ordered set free

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

History is filled with disappointments. And tyrants.

It certainly is.  Doesn't mean we should mistake the former for the latter either in fantasy or history.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But he didn't prevent anything, right? Westeros is in the middle of it's worst war in it's 10k year history 

He was murdered.  Then the shit hit the fan.  You might have noticed either or both of those things. 

It's the worst war since the Robellion and it might be the worst war since the Targaryen conquest but that's what happens with a contested succession.  Let's calm down before we compare this to the apocalypse or say the Long Night wasn't even a patch on TWOT5K.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The arrest of Tyrion is the catalyst of Roberts reign, and he handled it so spectacularly horrendously.

He ordered Tyrion released, told Ned he would not arrest Jaime and that he wanted no more fighting between Stark and Lannister.  Then he made Ned Hand again, went hunting and was murdered. 

It's classic Bobby B but should he have put heads on pikes or ordered more arrests and taken hostages for good behaviour from his friend's and his wife's family?  What should he have done in your opinion?

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59 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

Can you point to any examples in the series where Robert is regarded as a tyrant?  By anyone.  He was king for fifteen years so there should be plenty of voices or examples for you to choose from.  I wonder why not.

He climbed onto the throne on the skulls of Aegon and his sister, if you think that's cool then fine.

And asking rando Westerosi how they feel about current events just gets you characters like All For Joffrey.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Right, right.  Petyr and Joffrey. Not Tyrion.  People Robert does not suspect of any wrongdoing and whom he does not put his thumb on the scales of justice to protect.  Why should Tyrion not be released though?  What tyranny is involved here?

He's obstructing justice. Catelyn's hand scars are real enough, a crime was committed and justice demands answers.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

If there was evidence Ned would have planned to arrest him.  Because there isn't he doesn't.

There's a knife that according to the kings councilors was in possession of Tyrion, in fact he gives the time and place Tyrion supposedly acquired the murder weapon. 

The fact that the piece of evidence is known by almost all peers when roughly described is just hysterical. I'll give you guys this, LF got plot armor. His schemes are half ass and deteriorate most of the time before completion. 

Ned was just kind of an idiot 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's grounds for an investigation but if all that turns up is a false accusation why should Tyrion be imprisoned?

Can't have a trial without a defendant.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's a medieval fantasy world, not the 21st century.  You don't arrest the Queen's brother on an unsubstantiated allegation.  More accurately, justice could be stopped because of Tyrion's last name but Robert actually moves to stop a miscarriage of justice and unlawful imprisonment because of the family's importance. 

Lannister is not above the law. Jaime acts like it is, Cersei thinks it is and Tywins insists it is, but they're not. They're all the kings subjects and subjugated to the same laws as everyone else.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

All that is turned on it's head when Tyrion is framed for Joffrey's murder which is the sort of injustice and "tyranny" you should be worked up about, not sloppy old Bobby B.

I disapprove of Tywin and Cerseis govts as well, I think that goes without saying 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Funny how someone can be so disappointed by an innocent man being ordered set free

Truly. What makes it funnier is Tyrion is my favorite character in the entirety of fiction.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

He was murdered.  Then the shit hit the fan.  You might have noticed either or both of those things. 

Tywin already sent in his troops, Edumre called in his banners, shit was already popping. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Let's calm down before we compare this to the apocalypse or say the Long Night wasn't even a patch on TWOT5K.

Was the long night in Dorne? Because there's riots on the streets of Sunspear. Princesses in towers, princes being burnt in Essos. And that's the chill land. The Reach is about to be blasted by the Ironborn, veterans who've done a good job raping the north now looking south, and then all the other kingdoms that are virtually on fire. I mean, Riverlands alone, we're talking about non stop atrocious, both sides tearing at the same land. As if there were two sides, more like twenty. 

There's a reason GRRM decided for his epic to take place now, shits positively WW1

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

He ordered Tyrion released, told Ned he would not arrest Jaime and that he wanted no more fighting between Stark and Lannister.  Then he made Ned Hand again, went hunting and was murdered. 

It's classic Bobby B but should he have put heads on pikes or ordered more arrests and taken hostages for good behaviour from his friend's and his wife's family?  What should he have done in your opinion?

Asked to look at the evidence, and upon seeing the knife ordering the arrest of Petyr. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum which is accomplished nothing but was rather amusing 

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He climbed onto the throne on the skulls of Aegon and his sister, if you think that's cool then fine.

Robert took the throne after a civil war to remove a tyrant.  I think you must see the difference however much you pretend otherwise.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And asking rando Westerosi how they feel about current events just gets you characters like All For Joffrey.

I mean it's not like we have five volumes, thousands of pages and several dozen povs with characters' internal thoughts the length and breadth of the seven kingdoms.  You can't find a single example of anyone in universe considering him a tyrant so you dissemble with this smokescreen that we can never know what anyone thinks as if the only way of conveying information is for the author to have The Goldcloaks grab Pete the turnip seller and demand to know what he thinks of the King :rolleyes:.  Pure nonsense.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He's obstructing justice. Catelyn's hand scars are real enough, a crime was committed and justice demands answers.

Who is?  Tyrion did nothing.  Justice requires you don't punish the innocent or assume guilt or deprive someone of their liberty without adequate grounds.  Ned knew that.  So did Catelyn.  She took Tyrion (ironically enough) to forestall danger to Ned.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

There's a knife that according to the kings councilors was in possession of Tyrion, in fact he gives the time and place Tyrion supposedly acquired the murder weapon. 

That's proves absolutely nothing.  All it purports to prove is that the knife belonged to Tyrion at one time, just as LF claims it belonged to him at one time, when in fact it belonged to Robert all the time.

The first line of enquiry is to interview Tyrion about the knife and whether he ever owned it.  He might breezily say yes (like LF) but that he passed it on to someone else, he might say - as he does to Catelyn - that he never owned it at all.  How long should he remain in jail while his presumed guilt trumps his innocence?

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Can't have a trial without a defendant.

I shouldn't have to say this but.... You don't hold a trial without a case...... Or at least you shouldn't......

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lannister is not above the law. Jaime acts like it is, Cersei thinks it is and Tywins insists it is, but they're not. They're all the kings subjects and subjugated to the same laws as everyone else.

It's not a 21st century democracy.  The Queen's brother is not going to be treated the same way as a shopkeeper.  Largely because mistreating a shopkeeper won't spark a civil war.  I don't know why this bothers you so much but inequality is a fact of life in a feudal society.  Inequality or favouritism isn't tyranny.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin already sent in his troops, Edumre called in his banners, shit was already popping. 

Two noble families were getting close to conflict.  Shit hit the fan when Robert was dead.  Unless you happen to think Stannis or Renly or Robb or Balon would declare themselves king while Robert was still alive?  No?  Maybe Joffrey then.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Asked to look at the evidence, and upon seeing the knife ordering the arrest of Petyr. Instead of throwing a temper tantrum which is accomplished nothing but was rather amusing 

Where is the knife?  Following up like that would be thoughtful and intelligent but that's not Bobby B.  He's careless and finds it all a drag.  Lazy and negligent of him but then that's his personality and it comes back to bite him.  Hardly tyrannical though.

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11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert took the throne after a civil war to remove a tyrant.  I think you must see the difference however much you pretend otherwise.

I wish I could

Quote

"Robert, I ask you, what did we rise against Aerys Targaryen for, if not to put an end to the murder of children?"

"To put an end to Targaryens!" the king growled.

 

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I mean it's not like we have five volumes, thousands of pages and several dozen povs with characters' internal thoughts the length and breadth of the seven kingdoms.  You can't find a single example of anyone in universe considering him a tyrant so you dissemble with this smokescreen that we can never know what anyone thinks as if the only way of conveying information is for the author to have The Goldcloaks grab Pete the turnip seller and demand to know what he thinks of the King :rolleyes:.  Pure nonsense.

Nonsense, huh?
When was Aerys called a tyrant? Or Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, Euron, Stannis?

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Justice requires you don't punish the innocent or assume guilt or deprive someone of their liberty without adequate grounds.

Theres no bill of rights. Guilty till proven innocent is the way the laws work. 
And there are adequate grounds, he was pointed out by the corresponding authorities that Tyrion was the guilty party

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She took Tyrion (ironically enough) to forestall danger to Ned.

Why do you think this?

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

How long should he remain in jail while his presumed guilt trumps his innocence?

Any random witness like the king or Jaime, presumably others, would recognize the knife instantly and would say it never belonged to Tyrion, so day 1 of the trial?

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I shouldn't have to say this but.... You don't hold a trial without a case...... Or at least you shouldn't......

Most things in Westeros shouldnt be

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It's not a 21st century democracy.

No, its not. Which is why the rulers back then were so quick to wear the label tyrant. Like Louis XVI or George III, they werent that bad tbh (compared to contemporaries), but theyre still unacceptable 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The Queen's brother is not going to be treated the same way as a shopkeeper.  Largely because mistreating a shopkeeper won't spark a civil war.  I don't know why this bothers you so much but inequality is a fact of life in a feudal society. 

I know the song. 

And who are you, the proud lord said
That I must bow so low?

But we're not discussing a different cat, nor a shopkeeper, but a Stark. 
I have no doubt that Lannister is above the law in terms of, well, Mycha. But I aint talking about Mycha. Brandon Stark, his name is synonymous with Westeros itself, he aint below nothing. Neither was JonA. Family Duty Honor, Lannister is not above the law of great lords

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Two noble families were getting close to conflict.  Shit hit the fan when Robert was dead.  Unless you happen to think Stannis or Renly or Robb or Balon would declare themselves king while Robert was still alive?  No?  Maybe Joffrey then.

Two families were at conflict, Gregor started a war and Berics probably on his twelfth life by now.
Id say shit hit the fan when Eddard died, that got Robb crowned and Stannis and Balon too, and brought into the war thusly making it a whole Westerosi war. 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Where is the knife?  Following up like that would be thoughtful and intelligent but that's not Bobby B.  He's careless and finds it all a drag.  Lazy and negligent of him but then that's his personality and it comes back to bite him.  Hardly tyrannical though.

You know your coming up with a lot words that I think are just sugar coating the actions of a tyrant, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ;)

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Feudal lords are closer to mafia bosses than government workers. All their power and rule is based on public perception among their equals and peasantry. To allow his son to be taken at will by another great house would be admitting weakness and invite civil war within westerlands as well as disorder. Tywin did the right thing

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1 hour ago, Hrulj said:

Feudal lords are closer to mafia bosses than government workers. All their power and rule is based on public perception among their equals and peasantry. To allow his son to be taken at will by another great house would be admitting weakness and invite civil war within westerlands as well as disorder. Tywin did the right thing

Well, he managed to start a civil war and "disorder" in the whole realm as well as discord and disaster in his immediate family. 

Of course, he shouldn't allow his son "to be taken at will by another great house". But the attack on the Riverlands was not his only option. 

Edited by Julia H.
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10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I wish I could

If you really mean that I feel sorry for you.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Nonsense, huh?

Yes, your "all for Joffrey" evasion is pure nonsense and that's a charitable description.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

When was Aerys called a tyrant? Or Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey, Euron, Stannis?

Why do you regard Stannis as a tyrant?

But with regard to all the others people have plenty to say about their character and the injustice of their actions.  Aerys was known as the mad king for burning people for shit and giggles while Bobby B wanted to jack it all in and go off to Essos and be the sell sword king.

Seems you're being evasive and indulging in whataboutism rather than backing up what you say.

I think fundamentally you have an issue with kingship, so any abuse of power, favouritism or simply the reality of inequality is all tyranny to you.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Guilty till proven innocent is the way the laws work.

Just stop.  You are being absurd.

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

And there are adequate grounds, he was pointed out by the corresponding authorities that Tyrion was the guilty party

Utter nonsense.  There is an allegation that Tyrion owned the dagger at one time.  Maybe he sold it or gave it away, maybe it was stolen.  All there is is a line of enquiry that may lead nowhere.  As it of course does.....

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Why do you think this?

For the same reason Catelyn's visit to KL is kept secret.  To avoid making the Lannisters suspicious of what they know or intend.  It backfires somewhat.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Any random witness like the king or Jaime, presumably others, would recognize the knife instantly and would say it never belonged to Tyrion, so day 1 of the trial?

You must be aware that trials only take place after a period of evidence gathering and if the case is weak - or non-existent  - it's dropped.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

No, its not. Which is why the rulers back then were so quick to wear the label tyrant. Like Louis XVI or George III, they werent that bad tbh (compared to contemporaries), but theyre still unacceptable 

As I said your problem is with kingship in general.  That seems a pointless complaint given the setting of the story.  Unacceptable to who?  To you, maybe but that's a pointless value judgment.  The people of Westeros don't consider Robert a tyrant.  Everyone in Westeros finds Robert acceptable.  He's flawed but he's not unpopular let alone loathed or regarded as an unjust tyrant.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

But we're not discussing a different cat, nor a shopkeeper, but a Stark.

We're discussing the treatment of Tyrion Lannister, the Queen's brother and son of a Lord Paramount.  It may offend your sense of justice but there are good reasons for treading softly before arresting someone of that rank without a shred of evidence.

Trying to de-escalate the situation makes a lot of sense.  In the meantime Ned can actually try and find some evidence.  Problem of course is that would point to Joffrey which would be an even bigger shitstorm.

11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

You know your coming up with a lot words that I think are just sugar coating the actions of a tyrant, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ;)

I think you know he's not but generally dislike him and use hyperbole to emphasize this.  When pushed you either evade or have some broad criticisms that seem to rest on unrealistic views of medieval monarchies and you have no case against Robert of any substance. 

Also, George III?  This is pre-enlightenment, more a magna carta world, there are no representative assemblies of any kind.  What is unacceptable to you would baffle the people of Westeros.

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6 hours ago, Julia H. said:

Well, he managed to start a civil war and "disorder" in the whole realm as well as discord and disaster in his immediate family. 

Of course, he shouldn't allow his son "to be taken at will by another great house". But the attack on the Riverlands was not his only option. 

Civil war in entire nation while maintaining image of strength for himself beats rebellious vassals under himself and a peaceful realm. He won that war in the end. 

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12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you really mean that I feel sorry for you.

If you don't think that quote is alarming and utterly hypocritical, well I don't really feel sorry for you cuz I don't know you, but I'm kinda bummed out about humanity. Kinda, it's no big deal

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yes, your "all for Joffrey" evasion is pure nonsense and that's a charitable description.

He's a character 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Why do you regard Stannis as a tyrant?

Murder, cruelty, dark magic, his mission to kill all rival gods despite the culture shock, grinding teeth I'm public 

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

But with regard to all the others people have plenty to say about their character and the injustice of their actions.  Aerys was known as the mad king for burning people for shit and giggles while Bobby B wanted to jack it all in and go off to Essos and be the sell sword king.

Seems you're being evasive and indulging in whataboutism rather than backing up what you say.

I've given plenty of examples of Roberts egregious behaviors (rapes, murder, terrifying Ned to raise his nephew, disrespect of laws), just because nobody in the book does, like with the others doesn't make it a whataboutism.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think fundamentally you have an issue with kingship, so any abuse of power, favouritism or simply the reality of inequality is all tyranny to you.

I think everyone does, or should, except the king. As far as abuse of power or favoritism, absolutely, core parts of any tyrannical regime.

I'm not a fan of inequality, but I wouldn't call it tyranny.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Utter nonsense.  There is an allegation that Tyrion owned the dagger at one time.  Maybe he sold it or gave it away, maybe it was stolen.  All there is is a line of enquiry that may lead nowhere.  As it of course does.....

Or maybe Robert always owned it and it was never in Tyrions or Petyrs possession....

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

For the same reason Catelyn's visit to KL is kept secret.  To avoid making the Lannisters suspicious of what they know or intend.  It backfires somewhat.

She arrested Tyrion to throw the Lannisters off? I'm sorry, I'm not following.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

You must be aware that trials only take place after a period of evidence gathering and if the case is weak - or non-existent  - it's dropped.

Um, I'm not. In Westeros? Beric can conclude a trial in like 15 seconds.

Besides the evidence is there. Cat has a knife in her scarred up hand, the kings quartermaster would say oh that's mine, and then Tyrion would be exonerated and the case would continue.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

As I said your problem is with kingship in general.  That seems a pointless complaint given the setting of the story.

I don't think kings have to be tyrants. I can name some the certainly aren't, Robb and Dany (I guess that's it lol). And even then I suppose they dabble in tyranny too. (More Robb then Dany, even if I approve of those actions)

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The people of Westeros don't consider Robert a tyrant.  Everyone in Westeros finds Robert acceptable.  He's flawed but he's not unpopular let alone loathed or regarded as an unjust tyrant.

Everyone in Westeros finds Robert acceptable? See it's blanket statements like that that you gotta look out for. Balon Greyjoy does nor did not find Robert acceptable, the entire Iron Islands shared his belief. Dorne and it's princes and princesses do not find Robert acceptable, that Darry who had Targaryen curtains kicked under the sofa does not find Robert acceptable.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

We're discussing the treatment of Tyrion Lannister, the Queen's brother and son of a Lord Paramount.  It may offend your sense of justice but there are good reasons for treading softly before arresting someone of that rank without a shred of evidence.

I thought we were discussing Robert. But whatever, let's discuss Cat. (Even though last post I said I wasn't talking about a different cat, lol. Does GRRM mean to be this clever all the time) (also you keep saying there isn't evidence, but of course there is)

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Trying to de-escalate the situation makes a lot of sense.  In the meantime Ned can actually try and find some evidence.  Problem of course is that would point to Joffrey which would be an even bigger shitstorm.

Lannister is on a roll, since pretty much usurping the govt they have poisoned her brother in law, frightened her sister and nephew into hiding, harmed her daughter, threatened her other daughter and husband and now she has the chance to nail them for when they tried to violently murder her son, twice. And you think the situation needs deescalation ? 

It appears that Lannister won't be happy till the world's crimson, if she didn't make a stand now it may be too late.

12 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I think you know he's not but generally dislike him and use hyperbole to emphasize this.  When pushed you either evade or have some broad criticisms that seem to rest on unrealistic views of medieval monarchies and you have no case against Robert of any substance. 

Yea I mean medieval monarchies and tyranny often go hand in hand, maybe it's the hat? (Although that scepter must serve some purpose)

If upon hearing "you can have whatever you want" he just has sex with their daughters right then and there is not a criticism of substance then I guess we're just at an impass on what constitutes an acceptable head executive.

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Also, George III?  This is pre-enlightenment, more a magna carta world, there are no representative assemblies of any kind.  

There's certainly no representative assembly, I'd say it's even older then magna carta, if I were to guess the only law Aegon made would be a line stolen from his descendant "the dragon feeds on horse and sheep alike". Westeros was off to a good start. 

13 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

What is unacceptable to you would baffle the people of Westeros.

It would not. You don't have to read Voltaire to realize the king doesn't care about you. Beric and later Catelyn are leading a people's revolution in Westeros now. This is a massive amount of the population dedicated to feeding the people, caring for the orphans, and most certainly, fighting Westerosi tyranny 

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On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

If you don't think that quote is alarming and utterly hypocritical, well I don't really feel sorry for you cuz I don't know you, but I'm kinda bummed out about humanity. Kinda, it's no big deal

If you find Robert burning people with wildfire for shit and giggles or roasting one of his lords in his own armour instead of a duel while his son strangled himself trying to escape the torture machine he was bound in then we'll talk.

Aerys attempting to remove Ned after he had killed his father and brother has a cruel logic to it but is short-sighted; but striking at Robert is foolish as it unites two Houses in opposition and the marriage alliance network makes that four.

Robert striking at a pregnant Dany is cruel but it's precisely to avoid the threat of a Targaryen heir leading an invasion and sparking a civil war.  Exactly what happens in ADWD when (F)Aegon attacks The Stormlands.  It's why there is no voice in opposition on The Small Council except Ned.  Note that Robert later rescinds the order.....

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

He's a character 

Of course he's a character.  You know very well this is still evasion but your m.o. is shift away from the point you can't answer - evidence of Robert being regarded as a tyrant in the books-  and try and focus on the red herring.  It's kind of lame.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I've given plenty of examples of Roberts egregious behaviors (rapes, murder, terrifying Ned to raise his nephew, disrespect of laws), just because nobody in the book does, like with the others doesn't make it a whataboutism.

You really haven't.  You've made a series of allegations that don't amount to anything like what you claim.  Even where they amount to behaviour on Robert's part that deserves criticism it's laughable to deem them tyranny, which has a specific political and governmental meaning.  You don't like Robert?  Fine.  I'll not try and persuade you otherwise but there's no reason to make illogical claims out of dislike.

There is no evidence of rape.  Before you get on your moral high horse this is a society where marital rape is not recognised and marriages are arranged.  Most people have no say in who they sleep with and most women have no say (legally) about when they sleep with their husband.  Cersei objects to Robert claiming his rights but she has a way of dealing with it:

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

She lifted her head, defiant. "Your Robert got me with child once," she said, her voice thick with contempt. "My brother found a woman to cleanse me. He never knew. If truth be told, I can scarcely bear for him to touch me, and I have not let him inside me for years. I know other ways to pleasure him, when he leaves his whores long enough to stagger up to my bedchamber. Whatever we do, the king is usually so drunk that he's forgotten it all by the next morning."

If you want rape and murder you're better off looking at Roose, Ramsay or Gregor Clegane.

Robert murdered no one.  The murder of Rhaegar's children was carried out by Tywin's henchmen on Tywin's orders to prove he had thrown his lot in with Robert.  Robert orders the assassination of Dany, an order he rescinds on his deathbed while acknowledging it was wrong.

Robert did not "terrify" Ned to raise his nephew.  He literally did nothing other than express a total lack of remorse over the murder of Rhaegar's children by Tywin's men.  You set so low a bar for tyranny that it is absurd.  Ned simply acts prudently to protect his blood.  Who knows?  If the child looked like Ned (or Lyanna) maybe Robert would not give a shit as it's Rhaegar and Targaryens he hates not Ned and Starks.

Robert does not "disrespect laws".  He orders the release of a man seized without adequate evidence and tries to damp down the rising tension between two powerful Houses. He does it in typical half-arsed Robert style but it's so laughably far from tyranny that I can't make sense of your obsessive focus on this.  It's not a 21st century democracy: of course Ned (who claimed Cat acted on his orders), Cat, Jaime and Tyrion are going to receive preferential treatment, they are all connected to the ruling family by marriage alliances and are powerful feudal figures with private armies!

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I think everyone does, or should, except the king.

This is simply not how the people of Westeros would see it.  We don't have monarchy anymore.  No one is trying to defend monarchy.  But viewing Robert as a tyrant because he is a human being with flaws who happens to be king is pointless.  Is he better or worse than people expect/fear, does he allow people to live in relative peace or does he terrorise his nobles or oppress the Smallfolk because he's insane (Aerys) or sees it as some diabolical way of reinforcing his power or extorting wealth (Ivan the Terrible)? Better, yes and no.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Or maybe Robert always owned it and it was never in Tyrions or Petyrs possession....

Is there any point to this rejoinder?  We know this and we both know Robert could have followed up but didn't because he is lazy, sloppy and wants to avoid prolonging the crisis.  Not because he's some terrible tyrant....

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

She arrested Tyrion to throw the Lannisters off? I'm sorry, I'm not following.

I'm assuming your familiar with the Catnapping arguments.  Cat's visit to KL was in secret so as not to tip off the Lannisters that the Starks are on to them (the purpose of her visit is to let Ned know about the attempted murder of Bran).  Ned orders Cat to prepare for war (Manderly to build ships and for Moat Cailin defences to be repaired) but to do nothing openly while he gathers evidence against the Lannisters to put before Robert to take them down while forestalling war.  Cat's trip back is supposed to be in secret too but she gets careless leading to the chance encounter with Tyrion at The Inn.  If she lets him go he will tell his siblings of her presence and situation which looks so suspicious (only one retainer, Winterfell's master-at-arms) and, as they are believed to be all working together and behind the attack on Bran, they will realise they have been rumbled and move against Ned.  Taking Tyrion prevents him warning them and gives her a hostage against them striking at Ned.  Of course, it's a split second decision and does not work as intended....

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Um, I'm not. In Westeros? Beric can conclude a trial in like 15 seconds.

Um, are you suggesting Cat could have had Tyrion chopped up by Ser Rodrik right at The Crossroads Inn? :drunk:

The accused can demand trial by combat as Tyrion does at The Eyrie and at KL.  Lysa's justice is not justice at all of course and Arya provides evidence that The Hound confessed to killing Mycah, something The Hound himself confirms.  Unlike Sandor, Tyrion protests his innocence.

I don't see anything to indicate Robert abusing the justice system like Lysa.  Quite obviously, ordering Tyrion's release would have spared him that mockery of justice at The Eyrie.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Besides the evidence is there. Cat has a knife in her scarred up hand, the kings quartermaster would say oh that's mine, and then Tyrion would be exonerated and the case would continue.

I'm glad you accept there are no grounds for holding Tyrion that would not be uncovered by simple enquiry.  When you say the case you of course mean the investigation, not the trial.  Ned is conducting the investigation and does not intend to go before Robert until he has proof as Robert is married into the family he is investigating.  That's usually called a conflict of interest that hinders objectivity not tyranny.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Everyone in Westeros finds Robert acceptable? See it's blanket statements like that that you gotta look out for. Balon Greyjoy does nor did not find Robert acceptable, the entire Iron Islands shared his belief. Dorne and it's princes and princesses do not find Robert acceptable, that Darry who had Targaryen curtains kicked under the sofa does not find Robert acceptable.

Sheesh.  Does any of that have anything to do with tyranny?  Greyjoy launches a bid for independence not because Robert is a tyrant but simply because he wants to be a king too.  Robert actually leaves him as Lord Paramount of The Iron Islands.  That's how much of a tyrant he is :rolleyes:

Dorne wants vengeance for Elia and her children not justice for Robert's "tyranny".  They get that with the punishment or untimely deaths of the Lannisters who ordered and carried out the murders.

There are indeed Targaryen loyalists like the Darrys who fought on the other side in the civil war.  Are they persecuted or do they tick along ok?  Are they proscribed and attainted, on the run and hunted and watched by the secret police and agents of The Crown or are they just ticking along in peace?  Barristan The Bold sums up Robert's approach, forgive and forget (#Rhaegarexcepted).  Robert stayed at the Darrys' castle, that's how little he held their previous allegiance against them or feared assassination.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I thought we were discussing Robert. But whatever, let's discuss Cat. (Even though last post I said I wasn't talking about a different cat, lol. Does GRRM mean to be this clever all the time) (also you keep saying there isn't evidence, but of course there is)

Don't dissemble and attempt smart rejoinders.  We are discussing Robert's handling of Cat's seizure of Tyrion which you allege to be tyrannical.  There is a piece of evidence, yes, but it is not evidence against Tyrion.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Lannister is on a roll, since pretty much usurping the govt they have poisoned her brother in law, frightened her sister and nephew into hiding, harmed her daughter, threatened her other daughter and husband and now she has the chance to nail them for when they tried to violently murder her son, twice. And you think the situation needs deescalation ? 

Robert absolutely believes that it does.  He may be weak, foolish and misguided but he is trying to avoid conflict.  I don't see why that is hard to understand, particularly as he knows nothing about Jon Arryn being murdered or the lies that Lysa has told Catelyn at LF's instigation.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Yea I mean medieval monarchies and tyranny often go hand in hand, maybe it's the hat? (Although that scepter must serve some purpose)

Yes, but as you invited me earlier let's avoid blanket statements shall we?  The people living under the monarch have more of a say than you seem to allow them.

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

If upon hearing "you can have whatever you want" he just has sex with their daughters right then and there is not a criticism of substance then I guess we're just at an impass on what constitutes an acceptable head executive.

Like the Ironborn parading the captive women on The Shield Islands into the Hall and raping one of them on the table right then and there?  I mean if this what happened it's a fairly damning incident but is it?

On 8/19/2022 at 2:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

It would not. You don't have to read Voltaire to realize the king doesn't care about you. Beric and later Catelyn are leading a people's revolution in Westeros now. This is a massive amount of the population dedicated to feeding the people, caring for the orphans, and most certainly, fighting Westerosi tyranny 

It surely would.  The people are praying for a king who will re-establish order and protect them not setting up communes for self-government or working on a Bill of Rights.  And it can't have escaped you that the breakdown in law and order followed Robert's death so the popular unrest is a reflection of civil war, famine and carnage not a popular movement against his tyranny. 

Beric specifically acted on a command from Ned in Robert's name and un-Beric is clear that he is defending the people of the realm in the King's stead.  He is doing his duty and filling a vacuum until order is re-established.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

"When we left King's Landing we were men of Winterfell and men of Darry and men of Blackhaven, Mallery men and Wylde men. We were knights and squires and men-at-arms, lords and commoners, bound together only by our purpose." The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall. "Six score of us set out to bring the king's justice to your brother." The speaker was descending the tangle of steps toward the floor. "Six score brave men and true, led by a fool in a starry cloak." A scarecrow of a man, he wore a ragged black cloak speckled with stars and an iron breastplate dinted by a hundred battles. A thicket of red-gold hair hid most of his face, save for a bald spot above his left ear where his head had been smashed in. "More than eighty of our company are dead now, but others have taken up the swords that fell from their hands." When he reached the floor, the outlaws moved aside to let him pass. One of his eyes was gone, Arya saw, the flesh about the socket scarred and puckered, and he had a dark black ring all around his neck. "With their help, we fight on as best we can, for Robert and the realm."
"Robert?" rasped Sandor Clegane, incredulous.
"Ned Stark sent us out," said pothelmed Jack-Be-Lucky, "but he was sitting the Iron Throne when he gave us our commands, so we were never truly his men, but Robert's."
"Robert is the king of the worms now. Is that why you're down in the earth, to keep his court for him?"
"The king is dead," the scarecrow knight admitted, "but we are still king's men, though the royal banner we bore was lost at the Mummer's Ford when your brother's butchers fell upon us." He touched his breast with a fist. "Robert is slain, but his realm remains. And we defend her."
 
I don't know if that could be any clearer about authority stemming from the king, about Robert being associated with defending the realm and those defending the realm and it's people acting at his command and in his name even after his death.  It neatly encapsulates the idea (ideal) of kingship and the (highly eulogised) view of Robert but it flatly contradicts your allegation about Beric and is as far from your 21st century notions of equality, a "people's revolution" and Robert's "tyranny" as it is possible to get.
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9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

xactly what happens in ADWD when (F)Aegon attacks The Stormlands.  It's why there is no voice in opposition on The Small Council except Ned. 

(Barri too)

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is no evidence of rape. 

You think Renly was stretching the truth? Possible, but from Cerseis thoughts it sounds like the "take whatever you want" was a thing.

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Before you get on your moral high horse this is a society where marital rape is not recog

Um, nah. Ill stay up here on my high horse thank you very much. Its muddy down there. 
Yo I could give a shit less what some fictitious septon thinks about anything (although one had good insight on the concept, broken men), Cersei didnt consent. 
But this isnt treasonous, just spousal abuse, its not affecting the realm (although...), granted the other girls arent either, although if I were to guess Id say it was in the dozens. 

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert murdered no one.  The murder of Rhaegar's children was carried out by Tywin's henchmen on Tywin's orders to prove he had thrown his lot in with Robert. 

No but as king its his duty to recognize murder, not dismiss it as dragonspawn 

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert orders the assassination of Dany, an order he rescinds on his deathbed while acknowledging it was wrong.

Too little too late (reminds me of Hoster blubbering to Lysa on his death bed, too late for that honey, plus you barking up the wrong tree)
(I mean its not that I even respect Roberts cruelty, this was the work of Varys and Petyr. Varys needs to give his girl a shove and LF just likes fucking around. Its not like either would willfully help Ned if it wasnt too late. Which i really think it was, Ned had two legs back then, so much happens in between the events its gotta be time up.)
 

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert did not "terrify" Ned to raise his nephew.  He literally did nothing other than express a total lack of remorse over the murder of Rhaegar's children by Tywin's men.  You set so low a bar for tyranny that it is absurd.  Ned simply acts prudently to protect his blood.  Who knows?  If the child looked like Ned (or Lyanna) maybe Robert would not give a shit as it's Rhaegar and Targaryens he hates not Ned and Starks.

Ned thought if Robert found out hed kill Jon. True or False?
Like hiding babies at birth from the paranoid king is literally tyranny on a biblical scale, the bar looks pretty high from here
(although ill give you its actually pretty low, he inherited the kingdom from a line that thought they were lizard people)

9 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert does not "disrespect laws".  He orders the release of a man seized without adequate evidence and tries to damp down the rising tension between two powerful Houses. He does it in typical half-arsed Robert style but it's so laughably far from tyranny that I can't make sense of your obsessive focus on this.  It's not a 21st century democracy:

You keep saying that, Im not sure what it means. I mean the most famous tyrant ever got stabbed more then 2060 years ago. He was generous too.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

of course Ned (who claimed Cat acted on his orders), Cat, Jaime and Tyrion are going to receive preferential treatment, they are all connected to the ruling family by marriage alliances and are powerful feudal figures with private armies!

This is the kings only job. Do his best to pacify 7 kingdoms of barbarians from murdering each other. If the king is seen as preferential too much then his lords will take matters into their own with their private armies. 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is simply not how the people of Westeros would see it. 

Whats this got to do with them?
Besides, they do. They just dont see anything else either. No body likes eating Bowl o Brown (except that kid for some reason)

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm assuming your familiar with the Catnapping arguments.  Cat's visit to KL was in secret so as not to tip off the Lannisters that the Starks are on to them (the purpose of her visit is to let Ned know about the attempted murder of Bran).  Ned orders Cat to prepare for war (Manderly to build ships and for Moat Cailin defences to be repaired) but to do nothing openly while he gathers evidence against the Lannisters to put before Robert to take them down while forestalling war.  Cat's trip back is supposed to be in secret too but she gets careless leading to the chance encounter with Tyrion at The Inn.  If she lets him go he will tell his siblings of her presence and situation which looks so suspicious (only one retainer, Winterfell's master-at-arms) and, as they are believed to be all working together and behind the attack on Bran, they will realise they have been rumbled and move against Ned.  Taking Tyrion prevents him warning them and gives her a hostage against them striking at Ned.  Of course, it's a split second decision and does not work as intended....

(Quick nitpick- Careless? She was so incognito that even the local bartender didnt recognize her, and thats the Riverlands very own cat. The chances of Tyrion straight up waddling up to her table and into her world is so astronomically small, and that only went down because of his life long ambition of pissing off the edge of the world)
Ok cool, rings a bell. Cool name, but lacking theory. 
Tyrion would say he saw Cat (her dads sick, she can visit the RL) and this would mean all out war, but arresting Tyrion means peace? Hostage is good, right, but hostages are better, Ned and girls, 1 does not equal 3. 
Cats not a general, Hoster never taught her the art of war and Robb never asked her to draw battleplans. (This never seemed to bother her) Shes not thinking in the terms of hostages shes thinking in the terms of attempted murdererr.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Um, are you suggesting Cat could have had Tyrion chopped up by Ser Rodrik right at The Crossroads Inn? :drunk:

The accused can demand trial by combat as Tyrion does at The Eyrie and at KL.  Lysa's justice is not justice at all of course

She can get Lem to do a whole lot more to his brother 
For sure, Lysas a curve ball if ever

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Arya provides evidence that The Hound confessed to killing Mycah, something The Hound himself confirms.  Unlike Sandor, Tyrion protests his innocence.

I don't see anything to indicate Robert abusing the justice system

Wait, what? 
Sandor protests and was found innocent, the reasoning was that Roberts ruling was interpreted as "precious" Robert decreeing that the royal prince was struck by Mycha. (he only needed 6 true knights)
Like, you dont see anything? 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't see anything to indicate Robert abusing the justice system like Lysa.  Quite obviously, ordering Tyrion's release would have spared him that mockery of justice at The Eyrie.

While Robert abused his system, Lysa was trying to break it using murder and lies. Shes different.
Imp can handle some more mockery

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm glad you accept there are no grounds for holding Tyrion that would not be uncovered by simple enquiry.  When you say the case you of course mean the investigation, not the trial.  Ned is conducting the investigation and does not intend to go before Robert until he has proof as Robert is married into the family he is investigating.  That's usually called a conflict of interest that hinders objectivity not tyranny.

Theres enquiries and theres interrogation. Obviously the type Tyrion received would have killed him (like Lysa wanted) but theres a line between allowing the most powerful son and brother loose and, you know killing him. I mean simple small talk wont do, Lannisters lie. Thats why Catelyn wanted him in court.

Ned has his book to play with, dance teachers to hire, having a serious talk with Sansas on the list (Jon too). The mans busy. 
Cats on the ground launching her own investigation, one thats (probably) known to be later fully endorsed by the Hand of the King.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Sheesh.  Does any of that have anything to do with tyranny? 

Nothing, just saying Rober was unacceptable to many. 

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Don't dissemble and attempt smart rejoinders.  We are discussing Robert's handling of Cat's seizure of Tyrion which you allege to be tyrannical. 

I feel like weve been talking a decent amount of Cat

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

There is a piece of evidence, yes, but it is not evidence against Tyrion.

Thats the word and approval of the kings two ministers (the only ones that actually work)
The knife is the evidence for the case.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert absolutely believes that it does.  He may be weak, foolish and misguided but he is trying to avoid conflict.  I don't see why that is hard to understand, particularly as he knows nothing about Jon Arryn being murdered or the lies that Lysa has told Catelyn at LF's instigation.

But his weakness foolishness and misguidance caused the conflict. His repeated insistences of promoting his favorite and refusal to placate the offended party led to the conflict.

10 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Yes, but as you invited me earlier let's avoid blanket statements shall we?  The people living under the monarch have more of a say than you seem to allow them.

Nah, theyre all miserable. 
See I wish I could just leave the joke like that, but there were definitely people back in the day who loved their absolute king (I mean, they could still be miserable) but like, King John was labeled a tyrant for his favoritism so was King Charles (I mean they did other stuff too, but favoritism im pretty sure was a predominant issue). 

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

ike the Ironborn parading the captive women on The Shield Islands into the Hall and raping one of them on the table right then and there?  I mean if this what happened it's a fairly damning incident but is it?

Im not following. Yes, it is fairly damning? 

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

It surely would.  The people are praying for a king who will re-establish order and protect them not setting up communes for self-government or working on a Bill of Rights.  And it can't have escaped you that the breakdown in law and order followed Robert's death so the popular unrest is a reflection of civil war, famine and carnage not a popular movement against his tyranny. 

The people are praying to Catelyn. Like, by the villages. And apparently she wants communes, although if she has a bill of rights shes definitely missing the 8th.
The fight wasnt against Robert, just his heirs, and Frey too I suppose

11 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't know if that could be any clearer about authority stemming from the king, about Robert being associated with defending the realm and those defending the realm and it's people acting at his command and in his name even after his death.  It neatly encapsulates the idea (ideal) of kingship and the (highly eulogised) view of Robert but it flatly contradicts your allegation about Beric and is as far from your 21st century notions of equality, a "people's revolution" and Robert's "tyranny" as it is possible to get.


Robert didnt send him out and hes dead, the entire mythos of the brotherhood was a laughable facade (Sandor laughed, though hes got and extensive sense of humor) until Cat gave it a new life. 
The books are 21st material though (well, actually...) theyre for us, and beyond. I gotta call what I see. 
And the idea of living in anarchy and helping folks is like Robin Hood shit, tyranny is some ancient Greek word about Zeus or something 

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  • 10 months later...
On 8/16/2022 at 1:23 PM, Angel Eyes said:

Which Catelyn should have known better; didn't she say to Ned on the basis of their childhood friendship because the years will have changed him but then tells him to trust Littlefinger on the basis of childhood frienship?

 

Because she saw that Robert is a much worse person, while LF could pretend still being a good man to her.

Also, trusting that he was telling the truth about the dagger was not foolish, because LF would be an idiot to lie about it.

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