Catelyn’s sin

[Craving Peaches]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

Tywin's attack on the Riverlands and Cersei taking out Robert, seems to happen a little too close, for my liking and always has. It almost seems perfectly coordinated, to the point you'd think these characters had cellphones. I know Cersei got very lucky in how she took Robert out, but the fact that she was able to do it and at the perfect time has always bothered me. I guess even villains need plot armor at times, lol

I agree, especially in the first few books the villains don't seem as punished for their mistakes as the 'good' guys. I also feel that a disproportionate amount of the people who die are 'good' guys. Cersei commits one incompetent act after the other and Tywin breaks the King's peace etc. Yet Tywin only dies much later and Cersei is still alive. As other people have said the whole plan from both of them here really hinges on the luck-based killing of Robert via boar. If Robert had decided to hunt something else or wasn't as badly injured, they are in a very troublesome position. Cersei's kids will be revealed as bastards to Robert and Tywin will be breaking the King's Peace. He could try and get out of it by claiming Gregor acted of his own initiative but I'm not sure if many people would believe him. If things turn to war with Robert still alive Tywin (and Cersei) have essentially united the whole realm against them.

Catelyn's plan at the Eyrie probably might have worked better if her sister didn't mess things up so much. But then Catelyn misjudges a few people by not realising they've changed, including Littlefinger, who started the whole mess.

 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

I agree, especially in the first few books the villains don't seem as punished for their mistakes as the 'good' guys. I also feel that a disproportionate amount of the people who die are 'good' guys. Cersei commits one incompetent act after the other and Tywin breaks the King's peace etc. Yet Tywin only dies much later and Cersei is still alive. As other people have said the whole plan from both of them here really hinges on the luck-based killing of Robert via boar. If Robert had decided to hunt something else or wasn't as badly injured, they are in a very troublesome position. Cersei's kids will be revealed as bastards to Robert and Tywin will be breaking the King's Peace. He could try and get out of it by claiming Gregor acted of his own initiative but I'm not sure if many people would believe him. If things turn to war with Robert still alive Tywin (and Cersei) have essentially united the whole realm against them.

Catelyn's plan at the Eyrie probably might have worked better if her sister didn't mess things up so much. But then Catelyn misjudges a few people by not realising they've changed, including Littlefinger, who started the whole mess.

 

I mean heck, the whine could have been so strong, Robert could have drank too much of it and passed out. Choosing to only hunt the bore after he sobered up or simply go home because he felt sick. There were so many factors at play, to say that Cersei got lucky would be an understatement. Also rather interesting that Varys doesn't try to prevent this from happening. He claims he wants to keep Roberts peace, yet does very little to warn Ned about these so called threats to Roberts life. In fact he only brings them to Ned after they happen.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

 

Catelyn's plan at the Eyrie probably might have worked better if her sister didn't mess things up so much. But then Catelyn misjudges a few people by not realising they've changed, including Littlefinger, who started the whole mess.

 

Which Catelyn should have known better; didn't she say to Ned on the basis of their childhood friendship because the years will have changed him but then tells him to trust Littlefinger on the basis of childhood frienship?

[Craving Peaches]

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Also rather interesting that Varys doesn't try to prevent this from happening. He claims he wants to keep Roberts peace, yet does very little to warn Ned about these so called threats to Roberts life. In fact he only brings them to Ned after they happen.

Yes. I think Varys is either lying about acting 'for the good of the realm' or believes he is but is blind to the fact that he isn't. Although Varys does do several seemingly altruistic things which helped people but couldn't benefit his scheming that much, such as sending Edric gifts on behalf of Robert.

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Angel Eyes said:

Which Catelyn should have known better; didn't she say to Ned on the basis of their childhood friendship because the years will have changed him but then tells him to trust Littlefinger on the basis of childhood frienship?

Yes, that was quite silly. She says something to Ned like 'you knew the man but the king is a stranger to you' when talking about Robert, but then she doesn't follow her own advice when it comes to Lysa and Littlefinger. In Lysa's case does she not get warnings about it from the Blackfish as well?

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

 

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Tywin's attack on the Riverlands and Cersei taking out Robert, seems to happen a little too close, for my liking and always has. It almost seems perfectly coordinated, to the point you'd think these characters had cellphones. I know Cersei got very lucky in how she took Robert out, but the fact that she was able to do it and at the perfect time has always bothered me. I guess even villains need plot armor at times, lol

It's got nothing to do with luck, Robert was a ticking time bomb. Binge drinking and playing with swords, not a good combo.

Lannister knows their king. Give him a little responsibility and he'll be sprinting for the door before you have a chance to say Rhaegar Targaryen.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean heck, the whine could have been so strong, Robert could have drank too much of it and passed out. Choosing to only hunt the bore after he sobered up or simply go home because he felt sick. There were so many factors at play, to say that Cersei got lucky would be an understatement

He'd wake up wanting to hunt, and drink, although he'd still probably be a little buzzed.  He hasn't been sober in years.   

Like tourney fighting, even dubbed is an insane fucking thing to do! You know Demarius Thomas? Ex NFL star? Dude was a machine, and he recently and tragically passed away from CTE. If football can do that, so can tourneys. And then boar hunting? Like he's not Obelix. Gauls got that potion, not chardonnay spiked with 151. 

2 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

Yes, that was quite silly. She says something to Ned like 'you knew the man but the king is a stranger to you' when talking about Robert, but then she doesn't follow her own advice when it comes to Lysa and Littlefinger. In Lysa's case does she not get warnings about it from the Blackfish as well?

 Lysa certainly changed. She may have always had mental health issues (or at least since her forced abortion) but she's clearly now lost. Even wishing harm on her sisters family.

Roberts hard to look at any time and not picture a lethargic asshole tyrant in the making, perhaps Ned never saw him clearly?

Petyr, honestly, did everything in his power to help Ned. It was only with Eddards insistence that Stannis becomes king, which would almost definitely mean the death sentence for LF, that Petyr decided to betray Ned.

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Petyr, honestly, did everything in his power to help Ned.

I don't think I've ever head anyone say that before.  He manipulates Ned, deceiving him and Catelyn from the very start of the story with his lies about who killed Jon Arryn and the dagger being Tyion's.  It's all CYA to deflect any potential suspicion from him and Lysa as the murderers of Jon Arryn but it's clearly in his interest to obstruct Ned's inquiry and point the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats  He "unhelps" Ned quite spectacularly, culminating in the betrayal when Ned attempts to put Stannis, the legitimate heir, on the throne.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Roberts hard to look at any time and not picture a lethargic asshole tyrant in the making, perhaps Ned never saw him clearly?

Robert is undisciplined but is a brave, generous, loyal and charismatic figure in his youth.  It's remarked how he turned enemies into friends by being open-handed and that people responded to him with loyalty and affection.  This is the Robert Ned was friends with.

Middle-aged Robert is soured on life by being in a toxic marriage and trapped in a kingship he has no interest in.  He is a deeply unhappy man, drowning his disappointments in drink and entertainment to try and forget that.  He's hardly a tyrant, he's so hands off he leaves everything to Jon Arryn or Ned and the Small Council.

[sifth]

Petyr gave Ned decent advice, but over all he was using the man. Keep in mind he was tricking Ned and Cat the entire time, making them believe he was "helping" them solve a murder he himself committed. He did give Ned some decent advice however, shortly before Robert's death, about making peace with the Lannisters. That aside though, the guy used Ned and threw him away, the moment he was no longer useful to him.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't think I've ever head anyone say that before.  He manipulates Ned, deceiving him and Catelyn from the very start of the story with his lies about who killed Jon Arryn and the dagger being Tyion's.  It's all CYA to deflect any potential suspicion from him and Lysa as the murderers of Jon Arryn but it's clearly in his interest to obstruct Ned's inquiry and point the Starks and Lannisters at each other's throats  He "unhelps" Ned quite spectacularly

Indeed. From that outlook he betrays Catelyn spectacularly 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

culminating in the betrayal when Ned attempts to put Stannis, the legitimate heir, on the throne.

Ok, but that'd be signing his death sentence. Stannis makes it clear to Janos that because of his and Petyrs corruption that without evidence he would have executed him. Its almost guaranteed that if LF brought the legitimate heir on the throne it'd mean his death.

Instead Petyr argued that Ned should become the most powerful man in Westeros, when Ned refused everything but Stannis he played Petyrs hand for him. (why Ned didn't go straight to Janos or why he thought the gold cloaks only move through bribery is another smh Eddard moment)

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Robert is undisciplined but is a brave, generous, loyal and charismatic figure in his youth.  It's remarked how he turned enemies into friends by being open-handed and that people responded to him with loyalty and affection.  This is the Robert Ned was friends with.

Loyal? He's a traitor. 

Charismatic and generous, sure. I guess, Stannis would disagree 

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Middle-aged Robert is soured on life by being in a toxic marriage and trapped in a kingship he has no interest in.  He is a deeply unhappy man, drowning his disappointments in drink and entertainment to try and forget that.  He's hardly a tyrant, he's so hands off he leaves everything to Jon Arryn or Ned and the Small Council.

The mass rape is hard to look past, showing up to any dudes house and just pointing at rando daughter, if it's not tyranty it's certainly in the making.

Idk, when he shows up to councils it's either to plan on spending 1/3 of the treasury on a party idolizing his kingdom or to spend an additional third on the assassination of a pregnant child. 

Then there's the whole knife fiasco and his blatant backing of Lannister, proving to himself and his court that he has as much regard for the law as Aerys did

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

Petyr gave Ned decent advice, but over all he was using the man. Keep in mind he was tricking Ned and Cat the entire time, making them believe he was "helping" them solve a murder he himself committed. He did give Ned some decent advice however, shortly before Robert's death, about making peace with the Lannisters. That aside though, the guy used Ned and threw him away, the moment he was no longer useful to him.

I'm surprised Ned wasn't more suspicious of him. Why would I trust someone who challenged my brother for my now wife's hand?

Plus Hoster was downright careless by putting Lysa in proximity to Littlefinger. By marrying Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale, Lysa is close to someone that Hoster knows is a bad influence.

[Craving Peaches]

All of the offers Littlefinger made to Ned relied on at least a little lack of honour. Since Littlefinger must have known about Ned's honourable character, I would think that he never intended for Ned to accept those offers anyway. But I could be wrong.

[the trees have eyes]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Ok, but that'd be signing his death sentence. Stannis makes it clear to Janos that because of his and Petyrs corruption that without evidence he would have executed him. Its almost guaranteed that if LF brought the legitimate heir on the throne it'd mean his death.

Instead Petyr argued that Ned should become the most powerful man in Westeros, when Ned refused everything but Stannis he played Petyrs hand for him. (why Ned didn't go straight to Janos or why he thought the gold cloaks only move through bribery is another smh Eddard moment)

So he's not helping Ned, he's helping himself.  He's guilty and needs to keep Stannis off the throne.  When Ned doesn't oblige he takes Ned out too.  So much for help.  The only way Ned would accept LF's offer is if he was was venal, corrupt and Machiavellian like LF - in which case LF would have recognised him as dangerous rather than honest and naïve and no way would he have worked to cement Ned's powerbase.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Loyal? He's a traitor. 

Loyal to his friends, absolutely.  That's why he won people over and kept their loyalty in return. 

As for being a traitor, Aerys demanded his head for no reason at all.  Half the kingdom were traitors.  Would you not regard Ned Stark as loyal?

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Charismatic and generous, sure. I guess, Stannis would disagree 

A bitter and jealous younger brother. Not exactly a clinching argument.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

The mass rape is hard to look past, showing up to any dudes house and just pointing at rando daughter, if it's not tyranty it's certainly in the making.

What?  Let's not flood the zone with sh*t.

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Idk, when he shows up to councils it's either to plan on spending 1/3 of the treasury on a party idolizing his kingdom or to spend an additional third on the assassination of a pregnant child. 

Lazy, negligent, careless, sure.  Tyrannical, not a bit.  He just wants to party.  And this tourney is to honour his best buddy, Ned.  And to party.  Always to party....

The latter is realpolitik and dealing with the threat of regime change.  It used to be called statecraft and now it's called national security and leads to unsavoury actions like the murder of innocents. It shows Robert in a poor light but what triggers the assassination is the news that Dany is pregnant with the prospect of an heir and pretender to trouble Robert and his heirs.

There are good grounds to criticise Robert but tyranny is not one of them.

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I'm surprised Ned wasn't more suspicious of him. Why would I trust someone who challenged my brother for my now wife's hand?

Ned was kind of an idiot 

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Plus Hoster was downright careless by putting Lysa in proximity to Littlefinger. By marrying Jon Arryn, Lord of the Vale, Lysa is close to someone that Hoster knows is a bad influence.

Hoster was kind of a jackass

 

49 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

All of the offers Littlefinger made to Ned relied on at least a little lack of honour. Since Littlefinger must have known about Ned's honourable character, I would think that he never intended for Ned to accept those offers anyway. But I could be wrong.

In the end he chooses dishonor 

Quote

He leaned back and looked Ned full in the face, his grey-green eyes bright with mockery. "You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move. Look at you now. You know why you summoned me here. You know what you want to ask me to do. You know it has to be done … but it's not honorable, so the words stick in your throat."

Ned's neck was rigid with tension. For a moment he was so angry that he did not trust himself to speak.

Littlefinger laughed. "I ought to make you say it, but that would be cruel … so have no fear, my good lord. For the sake of the love I bear for Catelyn, I will go to Janos Slynt this very hour and make certain that the City Watch is yours.

 

 

35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

So he's not helping Ned, he's helping himself.  He's guilty and needs to keep Stannis off the throne.

Sure, but who wouldn't do that? I mean to just pave the way to death? Might as well just jump and get it over with.

37 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

When Ned doesn't oblige he takes Ned out too.  So much for help.  The only way Ned would accept LF's offer is if he was was venal, corrupt and Machiavellian like LF - in which case LF would have recognised him as dangerous rather than honest and naïve and no way would he have worked to cement Ned's powerbase.

Im not sure, I tend lean harder that Petyr was being sincere. And I kinda think Catelyn was a reason for that. (I mean, LF woulda ate nicely in this deal too.)

Idk, Robert may not be a tyrant but his brother certainly looks the part, chopping all these heads up and burning all these gods and what not. Stannis on the throne and the realm bleeds, you don't need to be venal to object to that.

43 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

What?  Let's not flood the zone with sh*t.

What shit? The book?

Quote

"Not true, Your Grace," protested a wispy young man who must have been Caswell. "What is mine is yours."

"Whenever someone said that to my brother Robert, he took them at their word," Renly said. "Do you have daughters?"

"Yes, Your Grace. Two."

"Then thank the gods that I am not Robert. My sweet queen is all the woman I desire."

Charming guy

50 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The latter is realpolitik and dealing with the threat of regime change.  It used to be called statecraft and now it's called national security and leads to unsavoury actions like the murder of innocents. It shows Robert in a poor light but what triggers the assassination is the news that Dany is pregnant with the prospect of an heir and pretender to trouble Robert and his heirs.

Call it what you want but it's ordering a hit on a pregnant child, kings are supposed to be virtuous and just, brave and honorable, not whatever Robert is.

And if we're talking about national security then pissing off the most powerful khal ever is not a good decision. It can lead to, well worst case scenario, Dany.

Its really the knife that gets me. Ordering Tyrions release without calling for a trial is just blatantly flipping off the rule of law. When kings do that it's tyrannical.

[Angel Eyes]

Just now, Hugorfonics said:

 

Hoster was kind of a jackass

 

And I'm saying he was an idiot.

[Hugorfonics]

2 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

And I'm saying he was an idiot.

 I think he did rather nicely for himself. Piece of shit, hope he's burning in all 7 hells put together. Lol. I used to get upset when Edumre kept missing the shot, too vain to let Brynden take a go. Now I grin ear to ear, thata boy Edumre!

Hoster who started off on the lower end of great lords became father in law to the two greatest lords of the realm (although not Tywin powerful they are Roberts adopted family thusly powerful in another regard. Of course Tywin disapproves and decides to become father in law to the king). I mean for all the shit he gives Walder, Hoster knows how to bargain. What's a girl or twos happiness for the price of becoming a great lord?

Quote

"Father," she said, "Father, I know what you did." She was no longer an innocent bride with a head full of dreams. She was a widow, a traitor, a grieving mother, and wise, wise in the ways of the world. "You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."

 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

In the end he chooses dishonor 

 

 

 

Only because Varys knows how to manipulate Ned better than Littlefinger. Varys knows Ned loves his daughters and would do anything to keep them safe. Given the fact that he has no other choice at that point except either tell a lie or risk getting his daughters head chopped off, it really does seem like a simple matter. If not for that chat with Varys, Ned would have simply turned down Cersei's offer, telling her he'd rather die, than help her. Heck Ned would have probably lived had he done just that, because once Jamie was captured, they would have simply traded Ned for him.

Littlefingers biggest flaw, is he doesn't know how to think like a family man, when trying to manipulate Ned. No decent father in their right mind, could easily forgive the people who tried to murder their son, yet Littlefingers simply goes to Ned and says, "just let it go man, marry your daughters to the incest bastard kids of the people who tried to kill your son".

Edited August 17, 2022 by sifth

[the trees have eyes]

55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure, but who wouldn't do that? I mean to just pave the way to death? Might as well just jump and get it over with.

The thing is not to commit adultery, cuckolding a Lord Paramount and Hand of The King and then orchestrating his murder.  The attempt to conceal a crime often leads to more crimes and that's not a shrug of the shoulders "what's a poor murderer to do, we've all been there, folks" moment.

59 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im not sure, I tend lean harder that Petyr was being sincere. And I kinda think Catelyn was a reason for that. (I mean, LF woulda ate nicely in this deal too.)

Again, I don't think I've heard anyone say that before.  He has been manipulating Ned and Catelyn throughout the book and he knows if Ned uncovers he was responsible for Jon Arryn's death he's finished.  He may temporarily support Ned - only to avoid Stannis taking the throne - but he's as insincere and slippery as ever.  It's only a matter of time before he betrays Ned.

And his "love" for Catelyn is akin to Robert's for Lyanna, driven by nostalgia and the elevation of a lost/unattainable love into an unrealistically ideal woman, shorn of any imperfections and flaws, the easiest kind of love to cherish as it can't be tested. We see how deep and meaningful that is when he betrays her and starts grooming her daughter.  You're far too generous to LF.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

What shit? The book?

No, this shit:

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

The mass rape is hard to look past, showing up to any dudes house and just pointing at rando daughter, if it's not tyranty it's certainly in the making.

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Charming guy

He's a heart throb in his youth who becomes a middle aged fat drunk.  He remains a womaniser that's for sure.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Call it what you want but it's ordering a hit on a pregnant child, kings are supposed to be virtuous and just, brave and honorable, not whatever Robert is.

Life is not a song.  Robert is not some mythical ideal of kingship or Good King "insert name" from fairy tales or children's fables but he's very far from a tyrant.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

And if we're talking about national security then pissing off the most powerful khal ever is not a good decision. It can lead to, well worst case scenario, Dany.

You mean the dead khal?

Remember how, when Robert ordered the assassination, all the members of his Council warned him how dangerous upsetting the Dothraki would be and how much they enjoy seaborn invasions and how it was only a matter of time before they came for revenge?  No, I don't either.  It's not seen as even a remote risk by anyone.  The only argument is over the morality or "honour" of the order.

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its really the knife that gets me. Ordering Tyrions release without calling for a trial is just blatantly flipping off the rule of law. When kings do that it's tyrannical.

This is your definition of tyranny and your line in the sand moment?  Jesus.  He's being badgered by Cersei (Oh Robert, you nasty tyrant, you!), can't be arsed to deal with a complex problem and goes hunting to escape the cares and duties of kingship and blow off some steam.  He's actually in the right as there is no evidence against Tyrion, just LF's malicious little lie, and is trying to keep two important families he is trying to bring together (Sansa and Joffrey) from quarrelling and coming to blows. 

I always thought tyrants locked people up with no evidence rather than demanded they be released as there was insufficient proof of their guilt.

[Angel Eyes]

6 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

The thing is not to commit adultery, cuckolding a Lord Paramount and Hand of The King and then orchestrating his murder.  The attempt to conceal a crime often leads to more crimes and that's not a shrug of the shoulders "what's a poor murderer to do, we've all been there, folks" moment.

Which, in another case of villains having plot armor, should have had gotten him killed by now since he'd been boasting about having sex with the Lord Paramount's wife and her sister (though not at once).

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Only because Varys knows how to manipulate Ned better than Littlefinger. Varys knows Ned loves his daughters and would do anything to keep them safe. Given the fact that he has no other choice at that point except either tell a lie or risk getting his daughters head chopped off, it really does seem like a simple matter. If not for that chat with Varys, Ned would have simply turned down Cersei's offer, telling her he'd rather die, than help her. Heck Ned would have probably lived had he done just that, because once Jamie was captured, they would have simply traded Ned for him.

I meant when he told Petyr to bribe Janos. 

His real last act was I guess dishonorable, but most could tell there were some strings being pulled. Or at least Jon thought he was murdered. 

Not sure he would do anything to keep his daughters safe though, in fact im sure he didnt. His daughters painful stories in asoiaf is because he brought them into the lions den and kept them there even when he knew it wasnt safe

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Littlefingers biggest flaw, is he doesn't know how to think like a family man, when trying to manipulate Ned. No decent father in their right mind, could easily forgive the people who tried to murder their son, yet Littlefingers simply goes to Ned and says, "just let it go man, marry your daughters to the incest bastard kids of the people who tried to kill your son".

Joff didnt do anything. The two others either (I mean, Joff aint great), besides Ned kept Joff as the groom even when he knew the Lannisters were responsible for the attempt on Bran, and JonA. Way after he found out about Joffs character in the Lady fiasco.

 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

The thing is not to commit adultery, cuckolding a Lord Paramount and Hand of The King and then orchestrating his murder.  The attempt to conceal a crime often leads to more crimes and that's not a shrug of the shoulders "what's a poor murderer to do, we've all been there, folks" moment.

Lol, Stannis doesnt know that stuff though. He thinks its just petty white collar corruption (I mean there was talk of witnesses being found dead the morning of the trial, so maybe some blue collar too)

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Again, I don't think I've heard anyone say that before.  He has been manipulating Ned and Catelyn throughout the book and he knows if Ned uncovers he was responsible for Jon Arryn's death he's finished.  He may temporarily support Ned - only to avoid Stannis taking the throne - but he's as insincere and slippery as ever.  It's only a matter of time before he betrays Ned.

Yea maybe. Hes certainly no friend. Who knows? Itd help if we knew his goals like destroy Winterfell for instance, but all he says is he never wants to go there. In asos we see how quick his plans change depending on Tyrions sense of humor. So if all he wants is to be a high official then his plan with Ned seems beneficial to him.
For what its worth, I dont think he thought anyone, let alone Eddard, would find out about Jons murder. Lysas insecurities is the only reason Sansa found out.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

We see how deep and meaningful that is when he betrays her and starts grooming her daughter.  You're far too generous to LF.

He lied to Cat and repeatedly played her like a fool, but I dont think he ever betrayed her, unless you count Ned. As for grooming, yeesh, fucking guy. Hes certainly sick, but I think like Illyrio his pedophile plans must take a back seat to his ambition so I believe all the grooming he will do will be the old fashioned kind, like telling her all people are chess pieces and the worlds hers for the taking.
I think hes got substance to him, hes not that archevil guy hes portrayed as, even though hes certainly responsible for most terrible and future terrible things to happen to Westeros

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

No, this shit:

 I speak emphatically 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

He's a heart throb in his youth who becomes a middle aged fat drunk.  He remains a womaniser that's for sure.

Yea thats a word for it. I think it beats around the bush a bit though. 

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Life is not a song.  Robert is not some mythical ideal of kingship or Good King "insert name" from fairy tales or children's fables but he's very far from a tyrant.

Hes a disappointment. You dont have to be mythical to have these qualities, why look at Dany, the mother of dragons lol. 
Hes far from Aerys or Joffrey, but hes far from acceptable either.

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

You mean the dead khal?

I mean the very much alive khalissi

1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

Remember how, when Robert ordered the assassination, all the members of his Council warned him how dangerous upsetting the Dothraki would be and how much they enjoy seaborn invasions and how it was only a matter of time before they came for revenge?  No, I don't either.  It's not seen as even a remote risk by anyone.  The only argument is over the morality or "honour" of the order.

He has a SC of yes men and Ned. Its possible to be cruel and stupid at the same time

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

This is your definition of tyranny and your line in the sand moment?  Jesus.  He's being badgered by Cersei (Oh Robert, you nasty tyrant, you!), can't be arsed to deal with a complex problem and goes hunting to escape the cares and duties of kingship and blow off some steam.  He's actually in the right as there is no evidence against Tyrion, just LF's malicious little lie, and is trying to keep two important families he is trying to bring together (Sansa and Joffrey) from quarrelling and coming to blows. 

I always thought tyrants locked people up with no evidence rather than demanded they be released as there was insufficient proof of their guilt.

Thats funny, right? I thought that too. But letting a suspected attempted murderer, and with possible information about the murder of the greatest lord (ever?) go because he wants a blowjob? (we all know Cersei isnt giving it up)
Its not that hes right, its that Tyrions innocent. But to disregard the law like that, (because he thinks he can, like Aerys, as if he Aerys wasnt touchable) when dealing with highly sensitive issues is straight tyrannical. And if there was a trial? Then everything in the world would be set right, LF and Joff would go down hard, thats another thing thats funny.

[sifth]

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I meant when he told Petyr to bribe Janos. 

His real last act was I guess dishonorable, but most could tell there were some strings being pulled. Or at least Jon thought he was murdered. 

Not sure he would do anything to keep his daughters safe though, in fact im sure he didnt. His daughters painful stories in asoiaf is because he brought them into the lions den and kept them there even when he knew it wasnt safe

Joff didnt do anything. The two others either (I mean, Joff aint great), besides Ned kept Joff as the groom even when he knew the Lannisters were responsible for the attempt on Bran, and JonA. Way after he found out about Joffs character in the Lady fiasco.

You mean other than try to kill Aray's friend and help his mother murder Lady. Nope Joff was great. You'd have to be blind, deff and dumb not to know, Joff was a psychopath. Ned was also trying to get his girls to safety, when Cersei's villain plot armor kicked in and her "master plan" of having a drunken Robert randomly get killed by a wild animal, just sort of happened. I mean imagine if Robert simply choose to hut a deer..................her truly genius plan would have been ruined.