the next House of the Dragon thread

[C.T. Phipps]

My preferred handling is that if they do go with Aegon wanting to prepare Westeros for the Long Night 2.0, that he utterly screwed the pooch and Rhaenyra is the last Targaryen until Bloodraven to know about it.

Because that fits Westeros' history of well-intentioned plans utterly falling apart upon meeting reality.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My preferred handling is that if they do go with Aegon wanting to prepare Westeros for the Long Night 2.0, that he utterly screwed the pooch and Rhaenyra is the last Targaryen until Bloodraven to know about it.

Because that fits Westeros' history of well-intentioned plans utterly falling apart upon meeting reality.

Some are actually now speculating that the secret got lost during the Dance, because Aegon III was a boy and there was nobody left to tell him. Plus, it's mentioned that king Baelor later burned a lot of books, etc.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Egg sent Bloodraven to the Wall with great pomp and circumstance. Bloodraven became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, the first Targaryen-related person to do so. That seems like a change of policy to me!

Aerys II wanted to build a second Wall, north of the original, for that matter. PArt of his flighty madness, certainly, but...

Well, but we do also know that Bloodraven kind of moved himself into a position where he had to take the black or lose his head, right? I mean, Aenys Blackfyre's murder/execution isn't just there to get them a pretext to send Bloodraven to the Wall, no? Bloodraven could have always taken the black of his own free will if he felt like it.

What I mean by no changes of policy is that we do have a Targaryen maester and a Targaryen Lord Commander at the Wall for decades (with the latter then even becoming the last greenseer, greatly increasing his power) and their influence with their royal relations apparently had no visible effect at all in slowing or preventing the decline of the NW.

The Targaryens believing into prophecy seem to have been content to research that topic privately behind the scenes and to, perhaps, set up certain crucial marriages and provide potential savior figures with proper military and leadership training.

But none of them actually bothered with the NW nor with attempts to get the Northmen/Starks on board with their plans.

Which, you know, would have been what Aemon and Bloodraven should have considered a great idea once they lived up there and realized that there was more to the stories about Others and wights and Children of the Forests than their maesters taught them in their youth.

Thus - there is actually no big problem between, say, Aegon V or Aerys II ignoring the needs of the Watch and Aegon I or Jaehaerys I doing the same ... especially since we don't know to what degree Aegon I and Jaehaerys I ignored the needs of the Watch.

In context, there is just no chance that Alysanne and Jaehaerys and Barth never discussed the Silverwing-Wall incident, nor is there actually a good chance that Barth's research didn't also include some in-depth investigation of the promised prince prophecy complex or the Others and Children as part of his general interest in magic.

So far we just don't know anything about that - which is understandable since Gyldayn couldn't (and, perhaps, wouldn't) cover all that.

 

[Lord Varys]

7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

My preferred handling is that if they do go with Aegon wanting to prepare Westeros for the Long Night 2.0, that he utterly screwed the pooch and Rhaenyra is the last Targaryen until Bloodraven to know about it.

Because that fits Westeros' history of well-intentioned plans utterly falling apart upon meeting reality.

I'm pretty sure that's George's general take on this thing ... although not necessarily this easy - it could have also be a general erosion of knowledge, a case of shifting and changing priorities, of the day-to-day quagmire of governance turning this whole thing into an obscure side project. As I say, Aenys and Maegor would have first posed a serious problem to this transfer of knowledge. Aegon I groomed his son and his eldest son to rule, but not Maegor or Jaehaerys. And while Visenya focused on Maegor, she, too, wouldn't have bothered with Jaehaerys. So whatever he and Alysanne knew about this stuff - and one imagines they would have known something - would have come from their mother and tutors (Septon Oswyck and Maester Culiper of Dragonstone) which certainly could have been enough for them to still care for this kind of thing in general ... but which may have been less intense than actually being told by Aegon I about the prophetic dreams he himself had or hear the conclusions he drew about prophecy and his conquest from his own lips. Jaeha

The knowledge could have actually survived the Dance ... but the feeling that this mattered to the surviving Targaryens may have been lost because to Aegon III and Viserys II their parents weren't as present as to monarchs who only came into power very late in their lives.

And, of course, folks like Daeron I and Baelor and Aegon IV would have either not cared or understood this stuff ... or they would have openly mocked it as superstitious nonsense. Sort of they have Daemon do in the show.

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Some are actually now speculating that the secret got lost during the Dance, because Aegon III was a boy and there was nobody left to tell him. Plus, it's mentioned that king Baelor later burned a lot of books, etc.

Baelor's book burning is indeed another serious problem, apparently having destroyed most complete copies of Barth's famous book on magic (although a complete copy may have survived at the Wall).

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Also, it's mentioned in TWOIAF that according to septon Barth "Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea", so GRRM definitely seems to have had this idea in mind for a long time.

Oh, well, it's his story.

[Black of Hair and Heart]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I wonder how many people complaining about the Targaryen having possibly black ancestry in their veins know mixed race families because there's plenty of them that can have white passing or more black looking members than their parents. Hell, there's a decent chance that Rhaenyra's children are in fact Laenor's children. After all, they have a white mother and a white grandmother.

Which is to say I wouldn't actually think it would be a bad idea to add more mixed race black and white haired folk to the Targaryens. We could use more diversity in that respect, especially with a family that is explicitly of a different bloodline than the majority of the populace.

Totally agree. Actress Rebecca Hall has a Black grandfather and no one who looks at her would ever think she was anything other than white. People are way too literal about the whole issue. 

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, it's mentioned in TWOIAF that according to septon Barth "Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea", so GRRM definitely seems to have had this idea in mind for a long time.

Oh, well, it's his story.

Of course, that's a pretty big hint that supports the idea that this may have been the main motivation behind Aegon's Conquest.

Back to the interview:

I really like it how George has worked out the problem that the prophecy believers couldn't know that they were really the ones meant by it, nor when exactly it would come about.

One of the big discussions we constantly had in the earlier Jon Snow discussions about the prophecy is that Rhaegar is in no way justified to believe he is the one just because he read a prophecy. (There are actually people who think Rhaegar's weirdo actions are 'justified' if it turns out that Jon Snow is actually the promised prince ... never mind that Rhaegar likely never thought or expected the child by Lyanna to be the promised prince - he thought that guy was his son Aegon.) Nor is it believable that a young boy read some old scroll and then decided that he was the one it referred to ... and none of his elders shut him down for being a self-absorbed lunatic.

Rhaegar's entire arc only makes sense in a framework where his parents fed him this idea from the start, in their own twisted way making sense of Summerhall and their own miserable marriage which was forced on by their father for 'prophecy reasons'.

But even with all that - there must be a larger sphere of reference tying the Targaryens as a bloodline to this whole prophecy stuff or else Rhaegar could have broken free of this madness by just talking to non-supersititous rational people (maesters, knights, pretty much everybody) in his circles.

Only if the entire raison d'etre of House Targaryen revolves around this prophecy since the Conquest (or perhaps even since they survived the Doom) does it make sense that their distant descendants would be so easily and completely drawn into this self-destructive circle of 'trying to fulfill prophecy'.

And I think that's why this is actually a key element of the larger story.

[Ran]

7 minutes ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

Actress Rebecca Hall has a Black grandfather

Black great-grandfather, IIRC, and even he may have been part-European, possibly offspring of a slave holder. Her grandfather was mixed, claiming also Sioux and European descent, while her grandmother was a white Dutch woman.

The film she made for Netflix, Passing, was pretty good although I'm told the source material is rather obscure.

Quote

Also, it's mentioned in TWOIAF that according to septon Barth

That's actually referencing the theory that the base of the Hightower was constructed thousands of years ago by Valyrians who then disappeared. I would take this as possibly supporting the notion that proto-Valyrians were involved in fighting off the Others in the first Long Night.

Barth is also the source of a similar sort of prophecy, a more specific one claiming that some Valyrians believed the gold of Casterly Rock would bring about the doom of Valyria. 

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

Black great-grandfather, IIRC, and even he may have been part-European, possibly offspring of a slave holder. Her grandfather was mixed, claiming also Sioux and European descent, while her grandmother was a white Dutch woman.

The film she made for Netflix, Passing, was pretty good although I'm told the source material is rather obscure.

Technically, of course, the black Velaryons in the show would also be of mixed descent, considering they do not live in a place where they can only marry other black people who only have black ancestors. Which is why it is kind of weird that they are still as dark-skinned as they are in HotD considering that they have lived on Driftmark for centuries by that point.

In a family where incestuous matches and cousin matches are the rule rather than exception one would imagine dark skin to remain distinctly prominent even if a considerable number of lighter skinned individuals had married into the family.

We even do see that kind of thing happening with the hair color when none Egg's Targaryen grandchildren and great-grandchildren do not resemble Myriah, Dyanna (presumably - I expect Daeron the Drunk favored his mother with his light brown hair), and Dyanna at all.

15 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's actually referencing the theory that the base of the Hightower was constructed thousands of years ago by Valyrians who then disappeared. I would take this as possibly supporting the notion that proto-Valyrians were involved in fighting off the Others in the first Long Night.

Barth is also the source of a similar sort of prophecy, a more specific one claiming that some Valyrians believed the gold of Casterly Rock would bring about the doom of Valyria. 

Both prophecies are introduced unconnected to the Targaryens in TWoIaF ... but that doesn't mean they aren't there for us to connect them to the Targaryen stuff nor does it mean Aenar and Daenys and Aegon couldn't have thought about those prophecies when deciding where to go and what to do with this Westeros continent.

I mean, one imagines that both the prophecy about 'the doom of mankind coming from Westeros' and a prophecy about 'the Doom of Valyria' going back to Lannister gold may be something that would be rather prominently on their mind after they had foreknowledge of and escaped the actual Doom of Valyria. Not to mention their earlier decision to move to Dragonstone and not to Volantis, another Free City, some other colony or any other more civilized place.

I don't know about you - but I really have the feeling that there might another metaphyiscal/magical layer to the story revolving around 'the ice and fire struggle'. There are things we have no clue about so far in the magical sphere - the freak seasons, the possible magical diseases (only greyscale if you don't think the Shivers and the Winter Fever were 'magical'), the strange and mysterious magical events like the destruction of Hardhome, the resurrection/return/change of Patchface and his uncanny prophetic talents, and possibly other such things I don't recall right now.

These things could be part of a larger pattern, and if they are then we are pretty far away from guessing at the true meaning of certain aspects of the story.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Both prophecies are introduced unconnected to the Targaryens in TWoIaF ... but that doesn't mean they aren't there for us to connect them to the Targaryen stuff nor does it mean Aenar and Daenys and Aegon couldn't have thought about those prophecies when deciding where to go and what to do with this Westeros continent.

I mean, given everything we've heard over the last month, I think where there is smoke, there is fire (no pun intended). Especially since GRRM now says that he laid groundwork for some of this in the books.

[Lord Varys]

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, given everything we've heard over the last month, I think where there is smoke, there is fire (no pun intended). Especially since GRRM now says that he laid groundwork for some of this in the books.

In addition, it also strikes me as overly complicated and convuluted to explore the core prophecy stuff more through Dunk & Egg material. That will be Egg's story which is connected but kind of contingent to the ASoIaF main story.

Nobody is going to bother Dany and Jon with Aerys I and Aegon V (they are just going to confuse those guys again) ... the revelations there should cut to the heart of the matter: which should be Aenar the Exile and Daenys the Dreamer, Aegon the Conqueror and then also Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, and Rhaegar.

Bloodraven certainly also knows very interesting things firsthand ... but the great feature about him and Bran is that they can see the distant past. Which should be one very important way to explore both the origins of the Others as well as the origins and earlier (mis-)interpretations of the savior prophecy.

I mean, in a sense the earlier fannish interpretations of Rhaegar trying 'to recreate' Aegon and his sister-wives almost got this thing. People realized that Rhaegar connected this prophecy in some manner to Aegon the Conqueror and his sister-wives - just as Dany and Jorah did the 'the dragon has three heads' business.

But it never made any sense that Rhaegar should think 'being like Aegon I' in some fashion should help the savior in any way. Rather this must be a hint that Aegon I and his sister-wives thought they might fulfill the prophecy ... or at least lay the groundwork for it by laying the foundation which allowed the savior to be 'a promised prince' (i.e. born royalty) rather than some lordling's get (which would have been 'the promised prince' if he had been the son of some Targaryen Lord of Dragonstone. The term 'promised prince' must be something the Targaryens coined after they had become proper royalty.

[Lord Varys]

Bah, so the Great Council is indeed Rhaenys vs. Viserys, not Laenor vs. Viserys. Guys, you are changing the story there.

Really enjoy Otto being such a pompous ass in that video. 'Well, Your Grace, your beloved wife just died ... which means we must now discuss YOUR SUCCESSION because that's the most important issue of all time!'

What a moron this guy is, really.

Apparently they completely botched Corlys' backstory by making the pre-Corlys Velaryons poor folks and had him do his great voyages after he became lord. Neither is true. The earler Velaryons were rich, but not as rich as hell as they were under Corlys, and Corlys went on his voyages while his grandfather still ruled Driftmark, living the free and adventurous life of a (spare) heir.

Really a letdown if that's also how they are going to portray him in his show.

Also, who the hell wrote that weirdo line about storms: 'To elude a storm you can either sail into it or around it but you must never await its coming' What?! I don't think sailing into it means you are going to elude the something you sail into but what do I know Awaiting it could very well you elude it since it might end up going the other way or dissolve.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

In Deep Geek says that he has read a lot of reviews and spoken to a lot of people, and nobody has a bad thing to say about HotD. 

I don't know. I promised myself that I wouldn't consume new Westeros content until we get Winds, but if this show is really good, I might still give it a try. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

In Deep Geek says that he has read a lot of reviews and spoken to a lot of people, and nobody has a bad thing to say about HotD. 

I don't know. I promised myself that I wouldn't consume new Westeros content until we get Winds, but if this show is really good, I might still give it a try. 

Actual reviews or first reactions from the premiere? Because those are two very different things. There weren’t any bad first reactions for TLJ or TROS either.

[C.T. Phipps]

48 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Bah, so the Great Council is indeed Rhaenys vs. Viserys, not Laenor vs. Viserys. Guys, you are changing the story there.

Really enjoy Otto being such a pompous ass in that video. 'Well, Your Grace, your beloved wife just died ... which means we must now discuss YOUR SUCCESSION because that's the most important issue of all time!'

What a moron this guy is, really.

This is going to sound insane but I kind of wonder if George R.R. Martin wasn't inspired by all the people who wanted him to appoint a successor for his books if he died. Because really, Otto is the architect of his own ruin because Viserys is still a man capable of siring an heir and his fear of Daemon Targaryen is perhaps justified but I don't think he comprehended how short sighted this all was.

Mind you, I do hope we see Otto happy about Aegon's birth and then utterly FLUMMOXED by Viserys saying he's not changing the succession.

Like, that has to be a moment. Especially since Viserys went with everything Otto said up until this point.

[The Bard of Banefort]

After watching the character trailers, it does look like Rhaenyra is going to start off as a bit of a brat, judging by her line about how the Great Council rejected Rhaenys, not her. Ironically, Milly Alcock even said that “people see Rhaenyra as kind of a brat” lol.

Did they not release a video for adult Alicent?

[The Bard of Banefort]

There was all this talk about HOTD vs. TROP, but looking at the trends, HBO should have been more worried about She-Hulk. People are really hyped for this show! (As I’ve said in the past, I think that the haters actually contribute to a show/movie’s success by providing it free publicity). That said, I still probably won’t watch it. . . but I bet GRRM will 

[Khloey]

I just saw the videos and I really love the design of Caraxès, that neck is so long it really looks like something between a dragon and a snake <3

Can't wait to see Vhagar and Sunfyre. Speaking of which, we don't get to see Aegon II at all, do we even have a picture of the actor in the costume ?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Actual reviews or first reactions from the premiere? Because those are two very different things. There weren’t any bad first reactions for TLJ or TROS either.

I'm actually not sure. I thought the review embargo has been lifted already, no?

[C.T. Phipps]

6 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There was all this talk about HOTD vs. TROP, but looking at the trends, HBO should have been more worried about She-Hulk. People are really hyped for this show! (As I’ve said in the past, I think that the haters actually contribute to a show/movie’s success by providing it free publicity). That said, I still probably won’t watch it. . . but I bet GRRM will 

Well they're on different nights and different genres. The big issue with Obi Wan and Miss Marvel was that they released on the same evening.

And even then, I think it was just Miss Marvel didn't have the same brand recognition among older fans.