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the next House of the Dragon thread


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On 8/15/2022 at 6:27 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I personally don’t think we’ll ever see a Targ show that predates HOTD. The Conquest is good mostly for the lore; as a story it’s absurdly one-sided, with almost no challenges for the Targaryens. It would be like watching a slaughter. Jaehaerys has a lot of interesting pieces, but it doesn’t have a greater arc—there’s no climax. Even Maegor the Cruel would be kind of dull and would be the third show to end with the realm being saved by crowning a boy king. That said, if they did adapt any of these shows, they would most likely just retcon the Velaryon parts. Alyssa would be a Massey now, or maybe even Aenys and Maegor’s sister.

It’s not just one-sided, it’s ‘oh, but dragons’ over and over again. Aegon et al often get out general’d, but…dragon. Their biggest moments of any kind of strategic thinking revolve around how to best use dragons. Argillac does a Hastings II…but runs into a dragon. The Vale somehow inflicts a major victory against a much superior navy…but run into a dragon. The IB show possibly the greatest strategic initiative in striking across the God’s Eye, but run into a dragon. It’s basically colonial/Cold War style fighting where technology is much more determinant than strategy, courage, etc. Maybe they can get Michael Bay to direct it. 

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I fully expect HBO to do some kind of damage control for S8 as the spin-offs roll out, but if you’re going to make your female lead a homicidal maniac, you have to own it. That’s what I’ve found so jarring about all the marketing for GOT on HBO Max. Obviously they’re not going to give the ending away, but it’s all leaned so heavily on Daenerys the Hero that it’s like they’re trying to ignore the ending completely.

I mean....why would you want them to own it?

It was a terrible fucking decision, badly executed, and makes no sense in the show or larger cultural zeitgeist.

Why not just admit that it was stupid and remember the good times instead?

Edit:

Zero Punctuation did a review of Resident Evil: Village where he talks about the problem of the franchise is like a restaraunt that serves Octopus Burgers. They don't sell and when they get rid of the octopus, they sell really good. But Resident Evil's creators react to their sudden success by going, "Let's add the octopus back!"

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On 8/15/2022 at 9:04 PM, butterweedstrover said:

I could be wrong, but maybe that is because there is no post-ASOIAF content. Martin exaggerates with numbers so the 8,000 year old houses aren't reliable. For the time-being everyone in the world is sexist and medieval without much in the way of a meritocracy. 

If there is to be something of renaissance (incidentally women in 1600s England had more freedom than the 1800s which means not everything is linear) it would be ushered in with new leadership once the 'bittersweet' ending George has planned comes to play. 

Women in power in have so far gone crazy. Cersei, Dany, Rhaenyra, Lysa, etc. 

We can be generous and say this is because of how they are treated, but regardless that is how Westeros is portrayed. Female leadership is not seen as feasible in the context of the books and must somehow lead to unmitigated disaster. But if Sansa becomes Queen in the North that could be a break from norm. 

To get there we need an ending, and as long as the external content takes place previous to ASOIAF, then there won't be grounds for progress. And really since the Targaryens are now the focus there isn't much ground for a post Targaryen world, especially if the main series is never finished.  

There is a ton on non-linear gender/social issues throughout history. Spartan women, for example, had much more relative power than in most societies for millennia afterwards, for example. 

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4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

To be fair, there's a substantial differrence between Aegon the Grown Adult ManTM and King of Westeros due to his dragons as well as armies to his grandfather and Tywin Lannister who is the primary holder of all of Joffrey's armies. But yes, I actually think this reminds me of what I like about Martin's villains most: a lot of them not only make mistakes but they're INCOMPETENT.

Aegon and Joff are both pretty much pawns in the game of others. It is kind of sad that Joff never get to free himself from Tywin or Cersei or Tyrion ... but Aegon is going to give Otto his comeuppance. And that's something one can look forward to considering the guy seems to be very smug and secure in his role as 'the Crown'.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

One of things I've increasingly realized about the "baddies" in RL is the fact that if you actually examine their actions, they are rarely evil masterminds but often incredibly foolish in their decisions because they have no limits on their behavior. It makes me look forward to more Otto and Alicent as they dig their own graves.

Well, the fun thing with Otto and to a lesser degree Alicent is that they pretend or fool themselves into believing that they are doing all that 'for the children' ... but especially for Otto it is most likely more about his belief that he can continue to be 'Mr. Crown' under his own grandson while Rhaenyra would immediately dismiss him. And I guess it will be very satisfying when the old man has to understand that he miscalculated there.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like your hostility to Rhaenyra is kind of overdone, though I point out that Rhaenyra doesn't NEED to be knight errant because she's already a dragonrider. Anything she could and could not do as a knight, she can do more as a rider of a flaming WMD. They also seem to be dramatically toning down her imperiousness with things like the ridiculous idea she wouldn't want to go to war with her brother until her son's death.

You are certainly right that being a dragonrider should completely erase any desire to be a stupid knight ... but apparently it doesn't since Rhaenyra does tell her mother in the first episode that she would rather be a knight than a mother.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I dunno, I think they wanted to make it distinct who the Targaryens were and weren't. It also rather serves as the biggest evidence of the Strong blood among the Velaryon bloodline. Mind you, I'm surprised we don't see any cases of hair dye among the Targaryen descendants.

Well, the point there isn't that they have dark hair but that they don't look like Laenor or Rhaenyra. Rhaenys having dark hair means she looks like her mother.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Frankly, I feel like this argument is one that flat out doesn't make any amount of sense. Valyria has been dead for a century by the point that Aegon the Conqueror moves to take Westeros and whatever advantages the Targaryens have with their three dragons, they have apparently managed to hold nothing in terms of Essos dominions. It is an isolated outpost and island kingdom that is Westerosi in culture except for its monarchy.

Valyria is gone, but not its culture, language, customs, laws, religions, etc. It makes no sense that people who proud themselves of being the last Valyrian dragonlords would forget all that ... especially not if they had the power to force their ways on a bunch of savages they just conquered. Which is how they would view Westeros if we go with an Aegon who felt like this entire continent was just there to feed his desire for glory.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

There's no way to colonize Valyrian peoples in Westeros because Valyria has ceased to exist and all of the Valyrian successor states are often people who HATE Valyria, were Valyria's slaves, or have their distinct cultures. Or to put it differently, if Rome was destroyed by a Volcano, it may have ruled Egypt (Mereen) but rebuilding Rome with Egyptians won't work.

The idea of the Roman empire survived the fall of Rome for about a thousand years in Byzantium and another 500 years in the guise of the Holy Roman Empire. The idea of the Valyrian empire also survived in Volantis till this day.

Only the Braavosi hated Valyria, the others didn, although the religious colonies likely had no real desire to rebuild the Valyrian Freehold.

My thought here was that like, say, William's Conquest led to a influx of people from Normandy and France to England, a Valyrian monarchy in Westeros should have triggered immigration from the Valyrian lands, say, Pentos, Myr, Tyrosh, etc.

4 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I also do think you understate the amount of work the Targaryens did to try to centralize Westeros with the establishment of its new capital, monarchy, the creation of the Crownlands, and so on. Admittedly, Jhaehayrs does most of the actual empire building but that's because Aegon spent almost his entire time fighting Dorne in the futile effort to finish his conquest.

They could have easily changed the entire political framework of the continent while they had the dragons to push those changes through. It wouldn't have been that hard.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon and Joff are both pretty much pawns in the game of others. It is kind of sad that Joff never get to free himself from Tywin or Cersei or Tyrion ... but Aegon is going to give Otto his comeuppance. And that's something one can look forward to considering the guy seems to be very smug and secure in his role as 'the Crown'.

Well, the fun thing with Otto and to a lesser degree Alicent is that they pretend or fool themselves into believing that they are doing all that 'for the children' ... but especially for Otto it is most likely more about his belief that he can continue to be 'Mr. Crown' under his own grandson while Rhaenyra would immediately dismiss him. And I guess it will be very satisfying when the old man has to understand that he miscalculated there.

You are certainly right that being a dragonrider should completely erase any desire to be a stupid knight ... but apparently it doesn't since Rhaenyra does tell her mother in the first episode that she would rather be a knight than a mother.

Well, the point there isn't that they have dark hair but that they don't look like Laenor or Rhaenyra. Rhaenys having dark hair means she looks like her mother.

Valyria is gone, but not its culture, language, customs, laws, religions, etc. It makes no sense that people who proud themselves of being the last Valyrian dragonlords would forget all that ... especially not if they had the power to force their ways on a bunch of savages they just conquered. Which is how they would view Westeros if we go with an Aegon who felt like this entire continent was just there to feed his desire for glory.

The idea of the Roman empire survived the fall of Rome for about a thousand years in Byzantium and another 500 years in the guise of the Holy Roman Empire. The idea of the Valyrian empire also survived in Volantis till this day.

Only the Braavosi hated Valyria, the others didn, although the religious colonies likely had no real desire to rebuild the Valyrian Freehold.

My thought here was that like, say, William's Conquest led to a influx of people from Normandy and France to England, a Valyrian monarchy in Westeros should have triggered immigration from the Valyrian lands, say, Pentos, Myr, Tyrosh, etc.

They could have easily changed the entire political framework of the continent while they had the dragons to push those changes through. It wouldn't have been that hard.

LV, Byzantium was not the idea of the Roman Empire, it was the Roman Empire. Byzantium is a name historians came up with; they just called themselves Rome, as did everyone else. It was not some kind of sequel, the capital of the empire had moved several times before being moved to Constantinople…after which, if anything, the Western branch was the sequel. 
 

As for the HRE or Russian empire, yeah, that’s much more akin to reclaiming an idea. But, again, as Rome actually existed concurrent with most of the HRE’s time, it’s more political theatre probably originally designed to give the new Carolingian usurpation legitimacy via the church, and it’s continuance after Otto was mostly just titular, it claimed little commonality with any versions of the original. 

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I mean, there's no Byzantine Empire in Planetos.

Rome moved, it never "fell" unless you mean to the Ottomans.

It was destroyed in Planetos.

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Valyria is gone, but not its culture, language, customs, laws, religions, etc. It makes no sense that people who proud themselves of being the last Valyrian dragonlords would forget all that ... especially not if they had the power to force their ways on a bunch of savages they just conquered. Which is how they would view Westeros if we go with an Aegon who felt like this entire continent was just there to feed his desire for glory.

Religion doesn't honestly seem to be as important a cultural unifier in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire because the Valyrians apparently worshiped multiple gods without any particular devoutness. So much so that it's never mentioned what religion they actually practiced (if any, it's very likely the latter) when the Conquest began. Again, I also note they've been settled in Westeros for a century at this time and while they take ethnic pride in their distinctiveness, I think they should be considered Dragonstonians first and not Valyrians.

I also feel like you're somewhat overstate Westeros' barbarity as, bluntly, I feel Essos has a lot of cultural posturing there but large chunks of Westeros were anything but. See Oldtown.

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They could have easily changed the entire political framework of the continent while they had the dragons to push those changes through. It wouldn't have been that hard.

I feel like this ignores that they wasted ten years of their reign trying to conquer Dorne and Aegon had already lost one of his dragons. Much of the necessary infrastructure for a centralized Westeros required the creation of roads and a functional capital that wasn't done until Jaehaerys. He also did do a lot of the centralizing of law and so on that wasn't possible until the country was secured.

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11 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

LV, Byzantium was not the idea of the Roman Empire, it was the Roman Empire. Byzantium is a name historians came up with; they just called themselves Rome, as did everyone else. It was not some kind of sequel, the capital of the empire had moved several times before being moved to Constantinople…after which, if anything, the Western branch was the sequel.

I know that, but in a sense it was also the idea of the Roman Empire since it was a Roman Empire lacking Rome and one lacking its western and eventually its southern half.

Of course, Volantis as heiress of Valyria is more akin to the Imperial idea being resurrected in the HRE and Russia than the continuation you have

11 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

As for the HRE or Russian empire, yeah, that’s much more akin to reclaiming an idea. But, again, as Rome actually existed concurrent with most of the HRE’s time, it’s more political theatre probably originally designed to give the new Carolingian usurpation legitimacy via the church, and it’s continuance after Otto was mostly just titular, it claimed little commonality with any versions of the original. 

Oh, the Imperial idea was basically alive until the end of the HRE and lived even beyond that with Hapsburg empire. It is the idea that there can be an emperor ruling over many peoples and lands. It wasn't *that strong* in practice after Frederick II died, but the very concept and continued existed of the HRE perpetuated the idea.

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35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Religion doesn't honestly seem to be as important a cultural unifier in the world of A Song of Ice and Fire because the Valyrians apparently worshiped multiple gods without any particular devoutness. So much so that it's never mentioned what religion they actually practiced (if any, it's very likely the latter) when the Conquest began. Again, I also note they've been settled in Westeros for a century at this time and while they take ethnic pride in their distinctiveness, I think they should be considered Dragonstonians first and not Valyrians.

People sucking up to their rulers mimic them, so we should have seen a Valyrianization of Westeros starting with the elites and then slowly spreading into the lower classes, too.

35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I also feel like you're somewhat overstate Westeros' barbarity as, bluntly, I feel Essos has a lot of cultural posturing there but large chunks of Westeros were anything but. See Oldtown.

It is not Essos I'm talking about, but Valyria. The Targaryens were the last Valyrian dragonlords, so their measure of high culture would have been Valyria.

35 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I feel like this ignores that they wasted ten years of their reign trying to conquer Dorne and Aegon had already lost one of his dragons. Much of the necessary infrastructure for a centralized Westeros required the creation of roads and a functional capital that wasn't done until Jaehaerys. He also did do a lot of the centralizing of law and so on that wasn't possible until the country was secured.

Aegon just spend about ten years of his 37-year-reign with the Dornish War ... and that was devastating for Dorne, not so much Aegon's Realm since only the Stormlands and part of the Reach were affected.

Aegon's entire Conquest is a kind of joke, really. He is a guy who sets himself as the guy in charge with nearly no change on the adminstrative level. No person getting off on the idea that an entire continent will lick his boots would do this. He would put his friends and followers into high places and slowly erode the power of the old elites.

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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

There is a ton on non-linear gender/social issues throughout history. Spartan women, for example, had much more relative power than in most societies for millennia afterwards, for example. 

But not so much in ASOIAF. It’s kind of like a permanent Middle Ages. I’d say the only kingdom that shows some kind of progress is the Iron Islands, which bows to the Iron Throne, gets septons, plays nice to get rid of the septons, gets maesters and septons, and keeps the maesters but gets rid of the septons again. They also went from intermarrying with the Westerlands to becoming more isolationist, and had the whole Old Way/New Way squabble over reaving.

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16 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean House of the Dragon has been trending all day on Twitter.

I think if the showrunners play their cards right, this has every chance of being a success. The only actual disadvantage is that there's no real Red Wedding-level moment in the story, as @Lord Varys pointed out a while ago. 

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10 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think if the showrunners play their cards right, this has every chance of being a success. The only actual disadvantage is that there's no real Red Wedding-level moment in the story, as @Lord Varys pointed out a while ago. 

Sunfyre’s, er, meal might be similarly shocking if:

 

a) people care about what he eats.

b) people don’t know it’s coming. 


Similarly Tumbleton/Caltrops, all the Harrenhall stuff and especially Blood & Cheese have serious dramatic potential if handled right, on top of all the spectacular dragon fights. 

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14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think if the showrunners play their cards right, this has every chance of being a success. The only actual disadvantage is that there's no real Red Wedding-level moment in the story, as @Lord Varys pointed out a while ago. 

Blood and Cheese has that potential.

So does the death of Aegon's other heir.

And what happens to Rhaenyrs herself.

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5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Blood and Cheese has that potential.

So does the death of Aegon's other heir.

And what happens to Rhaenyra herself.

Plus the storming of the Dragonpit and if they go long enough, Cregan Stark taking heads.

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4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Blood and Cheese has that potential.

So does the death of Aegon's other heir.

And what happens to Rhaenyrs herself.

And the sack of Bitterbridge.  Prince Daeron seals hundreds in a sept, before setting it on fire.

They could have him command “Kill them all.  The Gods will acknowledge their own.”

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4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

All of these are horrific acts, but they don’t pack the gut punch of being both truly unexpected and occurring to a character the audience loves like the Red Wedding did. But then again, one of the reasons why the Red Wedding is so memorable is because it was one of a kind.

Well, not really. The Red Wedding was Gut Punch 2.0 with Ned Stark's death.

I expect Rhaenyra's death to have that impact, though.

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A Red Wedding-like event is completely absent from the Dance. There are great personal tragedies, but the murder of a bunch of children and women isn't even remotely comparable ... to something as ugly as this. Neither of that will come as unexpected or as strong a twist. Blood and Cheese will be the revenge for Luke, Maelor's death on the road is kind of an accident, and Rhaenyra is already a refugee when she is murdered.

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