Jump to content

the next House of the Dragon thread


EggBlue

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It's at 68 on metacritic which is lower than any season of GOT. It's early and more reviews will be filing in and the number will balance out I'm sure, but its on a downwards trend right now.

Oh boy. I don't want to press the panic button here, but how will this affect GRRM's deal with HBO? Do they regret going all-in on Westeros content now?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

There is.

You can add more dragonseeds. Or you can see Shrykos be claimed by one of the three kings that divide King's Landing into three factions in the month where no one is sitting the Iron Throne. Let's say Gaemon Palehair since he's likely the bastard son born of the girl that Aegon II raped. He's a relatively important figure in the regency period for Aegon III.

While that's a nice idea, it would likely mean that Shrykos is not, in fact, in the Dragonpit when it is stormed, since Gaemon Palehair is on Visenya's Hill.

Spoiler

We are apparently going to see one of Aegon's bastard running around in the gruesome brothel he visits when his father dies. They could easily enough turn that boy into Gaemon Palehair ... or not. I think they should certainly play up the bastard motif not just for the dragonseeds but also in the pretender department.

 

1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

Or if you really want to play around and make things interesting, you can have Shrykos be stolen by Alys Rivers and hidden away at Harrenhal or something. I don't know. Granted such a thing would be convoluted but the fact that all those dragons can be so swarmed and slain by peasants (especially Syrax....that was weird)

That would be a truly convoluted plot. I think a much better version could be if Aegon the Younger claimed Shrykos after the death of Stormcloud. His dragon fear wouldn't have developed during his flight from the ship but rather when Joffrey was thrown off Syrax and his mother devoured by Sunfyre. Could also be an interesting dick move on Rhaenyra's part to give the dragon of the boy Blood and Cheese killed to one of her own sons.

I kind of imagine that Rhaenyra and Syrax might play a more active role during the riots. Say, have Rhaenyra fly on Syrax to the Dragonpit to save the dragons, and she is knocked off the dragon and has to flee the city because she cannot return to the castle. Better perhaps would be Syrax getting injured with Rhaenyra on her back, causing her to not make it back to the castle, so Rhaenyra glides her down, out of the city, where she attends Syrax while she dies to be joined there later by some of her loyalists. Could have made a nice dragon death scene, kind of mimicking Aegon's later grief for Sunfyre.

Joffrey could be part of the party saving his mother ... only to be slain by the rabble on the way to her. Although I have to admit that Joff dying because he is thrown off a dragon he isn't bonded to is a very iconic and important scene. But one could resolve this easily enough by having another dragon in the Red Keep which isn't Joffrey's mount. In our scenario it could be Shrykos if he becomes Aegon's second dragon or is for some other reason chained in the Red Keep.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Oh boy. I don't want to press the panic button here, but how will this affect GRRM's deal with HBO? Do they regret going all-in on Westeros content now?

All they care about is the profit. If HOTD fails to bring in new subscribers, then it’ll be in trouble. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, $erPounce said:

I find it remarkable. House of the Dragon season 1 has a lower average on Metacritic than Game of Thrones season 8. Many have mixed feelings. HOTD has generally been better received by fans of George's books. The review by Elio and Linda (who were highly critical of Game of Thrones) was more positive than most.

The reviewers are attempting to look cool because they applauded Season Eight and all looked like damn fools at the end so they're being extra harsh at the start but I have every confidence that everyone who tunes in for this is going to be drinking the wildfire Kool-Aid with the rest of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Great art doesn't tell viewers what to think, it leaves room for interpretation. The depth comes from the subtlety and subtext of the events rather than having a character monologue about the meaning of sexism. It is reductive to pretend its either or as regards HotD. I was hoping for a bit more sophistication in how it tackles brutality rather than just have it dwell on the gross details, but apparently we are not getting that. 

I missed this comment. We'll have to see how the show pans out. First, "great art" is a very subjective thing.

I looked at the highest rated TV shows on metacritic. Some of them I agree with. However, I noticed Bo Burnham: Inside was high on that list (as a random example). Clearly several critics viewed this as high art. I've seen this special. It took talent to block and design everything, but it was nothing that was outstanding compared to what others have previously accomplished. His songs were not terribly clever, and the show in no way enhanced my understanding of...anything really. But many critics were deeply impressed by all of this. Which is fine.

You know what did have that kind of effect on me? Godel, Escher and Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid. That is something I would consider high art. And I'm sure many of the critics who were stupefied by the brilliance of Burnham would find it intolerably tedious. Though some of them might like it too.

Who's right about the great art? Well, there's no mathematical way to properly assess that, so maybe it's based on who argues the loudest? Or perhaps there is no great art and it really is a highly individual thing.

Second, considering how even critics can't, as individuals, agree on what is great art, their second hand reports are even more unreliable.

I think violence in and of itself is boring. I am almost always unimpressed by horror movies. But in the context of depicting how awful human nature is (from a realistic perspective), I think substantial violence can effectively convey it, and is even essential (for me, at least). My worry in fact is that Hot D, due to awareness of how much GoT was criticized, will be too dainty on the violence. To not fully express the violence or sexism would I think be dishonest and unsophisticated.

But we'll have to see for ourselves when the show comes out.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

HBO is a premium television network, so they definitely care a lot about reviews as well. And George does too.

To quote, of all things, Deux Ex: "The crown of government is tarnished but that will fade in time."

Right now the best defense for House of the Dragon being a slowly awakening juggernaut is the fact that Game of Thrones is being rewatched and watched still to this day. I have no doubt plenty of people are do in preparation for the spin off program.

https://www.businessinsider.com/game-of-thrones-still-one-of-worlds-biggest-shows-data-2022-6

Parrot Analytics, a data firm that measures audience demand, told Insider that "Game of Thrones" was the fifth-most popular TV series in the US over the last 30 days as of June 21. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

The reviewers are attempting to look cool because they applauded Season Eight and all looked like damn fools at the end so they're being extra harsh at the start but I have every confidence that everyone who tunes in for this is going to be drinking the wildfire Kool-Aid with the rest of us.

That’s my suspicion.  People who bailed out on GOT once it started sucking donkey balls seem more willing to give this a fair view.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But they didn't in the books. The Velaryons are very proud of their storied lineage, to the point that Davos feels very uncomfortable in Lord Monford's presence.

More importantly, though, it seems HotD scrapped the whole concept of Valyrians being white albinos. In light of their silver-gold hair we would assume that the show Velaryons are as much 'native Valyrians' as the white-skinned Targaryens. They are not black because some ancient Velaryons intermarried with foreigners, they are black because some Valyrian houses simply are black.

And that's clearly at odds with George's vision of the Valyrians and their culture. They all look alike because their cultural tradition involved inbreeding and the breeding of 'beautiful people' (as continued by the Lyseni).

You are confusing ASOIAF and the HBO universe. The HBO universe never established that Valyrians or dragonriders are exclusively pale white people. It wasn't relevant in GOT. They didn't even bother to establish purple eyes. So no need to adhere to that notion here. It doesn't affect anything. It doesn't matter because the Velaryons weren't a dragonriding family in the first place. It also doesn't matter because even in TWOIAF it is made clear that Valyrian dragonriding families preferred incest over marrying with one another. So if they really wanted to go deeper into Valyria there's no HBO universe reason there couldn't be black Valyrians and black dragonriding families. Being white is something Targaryens share with most of Westeros, so no biggie creating Valyrians who actually do look different than Westerosi.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But they didn't in the books. The Velaryons are very proud of their storied lineage, to the point that Davos feels very uncomfortable in Lord Monford's presence.

More importantly, though, it seems HotD scrapped the whole concept of Valyrians being white albinos. In light of their silver-gold hair we would assume that the show Velaryons are as much 'native Valyrians' as the white-skinned Targaryens. They are not black because some ancient Velaryons intermarried with foreigners, they are black because some Valyrian houses simply are black.

And that's clearly at odds with George's vision of the Valyrians and their culture. They all look alike because their cultural tradition involved inbreeding and the breeding of 'beautiful people' (as continued by the Lyseni).

This is interesting.

So just in case you all don't know...I'm black. African American to be exact.

I do think it would've been better for Corlys' branch of the Velaryon family to be black due to having a black Summer Islander maternal ancestor and the rest of the family to be white Valyrian. It both makes for interesting drama with a real-life parallel when the other Velaryons try to seize control of Driftmark after Laenor dies and it lends credence to the belief that Rhaenyra's elder three sons are legitimate. The only ones who truly believe that Rhaenyra's elder sons were illegitimately sired by Harwyn Strong are Mushroom. Everyone else who professes such a belief either has an agenda that benefits from denigrating Rhaenyra's sons or they just are hateful.

However, it's not the end of the world @Lord Varys. There's no need to get worked up over this.

It should be noted that the Targaryen dynasty continues through Viserys II and Larra Rogare...who will most likely be white. The sons of Aegon Dragonbane and Daenaera Velaryon all die childless and their daughters either marry into other families or die childless.

 

For the record, I'm with GRRM. The Valyrians should have been very dark-skinned with orange-red eyes, wooly silver hair and large builds. More like Moqorro. It's too late to retcon it but I guess GRRM wanted to commemorate that by co-signing on making the entire Velaryon family black. It's a moot point seeing as the Velaryons never appear in Game of Thrones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Oh boy. I don't want to press the panic button here, but how will this affect GRRM's deal with HBO? Do they regret going all-in on Westeros content now?

I don’t think there is a stipulation for them to break with Martin, we’ll have to wait for the views. 
 

However because this is prestige television HBO is concerned about awards, etc. just to highlight the brand, so if HotD gets nowhere in the Emmys that’s bad news for HBO. 
 

Martin loves winning Emmys so if he gets none that will be bad. But it would also be somewhat poetic seeing as he was just comparing his legacy to someone like Stan Lee or Tolkien without having a finished series under his belt. 
 

He is counting on HBO to build his legacy for him so he has a lot riding on this show.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I suppose so. But Westworld hasn’t been doing so hot and they keep renewing it for some reason.

HBO could renew it but if it doesn’t pick up at the award shows the other adaptations may be in danger. 
 

And Martin care a lot about the Emmys and approval from Hollywood so this would be a major blow to him (but it might also make him dedicate to finishing the books to save his legacy).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While that's a nice idea, it would likely mean that Shrykos is not, in fact, in the Dragonpit when it is stormed, since Gaemon Palehair is on Visenya's Hill.

  Reveal hidden contents

We are apparently going to see one of Aegon's bastard running around in the gruesome brothel he visits when his father dies. They could easily enough turn that boy into Gaemon Palehair ... or not. I think they should certainly play up the bastard motif not just for the dragonseeds but also in the pretender department.

 

That would be a truly convoluted plot. I think a much better version could be if Aegon the Younger claimed Shrykos after the death of Stormcloud. His dragon fear wouldn't have developed during his flight from the ship but rather when Joffrey was thrown off Syrax and his mother devoured by Sunfyre. Could also be an interesting dick move on Rhaenyra's part to give the dragon of the boy Blood and Cheese killed to one of her own sons.

I kind of imagine that Rhaenyra and Syrax might play a more active role during the riots. Say, have Rhaenyra fly on Syrax to the Dragonpit to save the dragons, and she is knocked off the dragon and has to flee the city because she cannot return to the castle. Better perhaps would be Syrax getting injured with Rhaenyra on her back, causing her to not make it back to the castle, so Rhaenyra glides her down, out of the city, where she attends Syrax while she dies to be joined there later by some of her loyalists. Could have made a nice dragon death scene, kind of mimicking Aegon's later grief for Sunfyre.

Joffrey could be part of the party saving his mother ... only to be slain by the rabble on the way to her. Although I have to admit that Joff dying because he is thrown off a dragon he isn't bonded to is a very iconic and important scene. But one could resolve this easily enough by having another dragon in the Red Keep which isn't Joffrey's mount. In our scenario it could be Shrykos if he becomes Aegon's second dragon or is for some other reason chained in the Red Keep.

On the matter of Joffrey's death. I do think that he being thrown off a dragon he isn't bonded too is too iconic and important of a scene to omit.

But if you want more of a role for Morghul (which belongs to Princess Jaehaera), you can have it so that Joffrey tries to take Morghul to the Dragonpit instead of Shrykos. And then have it so that a riderless Morghul finds it way to Harrenhal where it can be claimed by Alys Rivers or her son.

And how is it a dick move on Rhaenyra's part to give the dragon of the boy killed by Blood & Cheese to one of her own sons? It is what it is. The boy has been long dead and buried and one of her own sons -- who are the rightful heirs to the Iron Throne after Rhaenyra, mind you -- needs a dragon. There's a free dragon that happens to have been the former dragon of the boy that has been long dead and buried.

It's a bit unsavory but not only is it completely practical but it's wartime...it's a necessity.

Plus it makes Aegon live up to the name Dragonbane that much better if he ignores/neglects/abuses his second dragon.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

38 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While that's a nice idea, it would likely mean that Shrykos is not, in fact, in the Dragonpit when it is stormed, since Gaemon Palehair is on Visenya's Hill.

I don't believe every dragon in the Dragonpit was chained. Even so, Shrykos can leave.

Or Gaemon Palehair can get into the Dragonpit during the riots to try and save the dragons. And he successfully saves Shrykos.

 

Or we can go back to the idea of having an extra dragonseed that claims Shrykos. Or we can simply add another Targaryen or Velaryon (i.e. Alyn Velaryon gets a dragon, Daemon has another son/daughter who gets a dragon, etc.) into the mix that gets ahold of Shrykos.

 

Or we can leave that dragon for Alys Targaryen and her son at Harrenhal.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could see the other spin-offs being put “on hold” if HOTD doesn’t have a huge audience. For HOTD itself, it will be interesting to see how they handle the budget. This show is enormously expensive, and I image next season will be even moreso. Zaslav sounds like a real penny pincher, so I’m curious how that will pan out.

Also LOL at all the early premiere-goers who apparently burst into tears at seeing Dany’s “tribute.” All it is is her name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

HBO is a premium television network, so they definitely care a lot about reviews as well. And George does too.

Yeah, but critics weren't exactly enthousiast about the first season of GOT either, and yet it became what it is. We won't know until we all see all episodes, I reserve my judgment until then. As usual, only the number of viewers adn what fans think will matter.

Shooting for season 2 is already planned for october 22.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

HBO could renew it but if it doesn’t pick up at the award shows the other adaptations may be in danger. 
 

And Martin care a lot about the Emmys and approval from Hollywood so this would be a major blow to him (but it might also make him dedicate to finishing the books to save his legacy).

If the show gets a sufficiently large audience HBO will renew it, even if critics hated the show with every fiber of their being.

I'm not sure what the concern with Emmys is. This is more of a lobbying thing, so it's very likely that it will be nominated.

Which seems like a very bizarre thing to take as status cue, by the way. Last year, the nominees for drama were: Bridgerton, Lovecraft Country, Pose, The Boys, The Mandalorian, This Is Us, and The Handmaid's Tale.

I haven't seen Pose, The Mandalorian or The Crown. The second season of The Boys was very middling.  Lovecraft Country had a good pilot episode, but the rest was laughably awful. I liked the book of The Handmaid's Tale, but found the show to be comically over the top. Bridgerton and This Is Us are fascinating in how actively terrible they are on just about every level.

Yet they all received nominations, which leads me to believe that lobbying does most of the heavy lifting, since quality of the show doesn't seem to factor in too much.

As for Martin, he's gone from acclaimed and decently successful author to one of the more successful Hollywood stories. I'm sure he'll find some way to cope with not earning more Emmys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless the show truly crashes and burns, I don't foresee HBO cancelling it. Even if it's not Game of Thrones level phenomenon, it's almost certainly going to succeed well and above most of what else is going on, on television right now. Game of Thrones also has the benefit that a lot of their other shows do not have in merchandising rights.

HBO loved GOT not just because it was a cultural phenomenon but jewelry, t-shirts, FUNKO pops, and even makeup.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...