the next House of the Dragon thread

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Some critics are saying that a Han Solo-type rogue figure is missing in HotD. Isn't that what Daemon is supposed to be? 

I guess Han Solo is a lovable rogue and Daemon isn't.

[SeanF]

39 minutes ago, Caligula_K3 said:

 

I think we pretty much disagree on everything here. We'll just have to agree to disagree about whether the added scenes were enjoyable; you didn't like them, fair enough. But I don't think you give fair credit to the challenges of writing a television show vs. a book series. Yes, books have to include backstory... and they have a lot more tools for doing it. A single chapter, which can be read slowly and carefully if the reader wants, can present backstory through dialogue, but also through interior exposition, little bits of description here and there that constantly reinforce the reader's attention on a certain piece of information. You also have in a book like Game of Thrones nice family trees at the end that the reader can refer to at any time. There's a reason that there are many more books out there with the scope and number of characters as Game of Thrones than there are TV shows.

In a show, you can only use dialogue to provide backstory, characters' names, etc...  You have a finite number of actors, who each have to be budgeted for. You have a precise amount of time. Watching live, a viewer can't rewind. Given these limitations, and the number of characters they have to introduce in a single episode, D&D did a pretty amazing job in the final version of the pilot. Yes, I'm sure that some showwatchers were still confused about things at the end of episode 1. That's pretty common when you're writing a novelistic TV show (see: opening episode of the Wire). Considering how many non book-readers got into the most complicated show ever shot for television, they must have done a good job.

It was writing to have the scene set up as it was, to have Ned speak to Yoren, to have Yoren cover Arya's eyes, to end the scene when they did. And you're fooling yourself if you think that showrunners of shows aren't intimately involved in nearly every aspect of them. Directors on TV shows like Game of Thrones usually don't have carte blanche to do whatever they want; they have to follow a set style, need to make sure what they shoot fits in with the overall trajectory of the show and what the showrunners want, etc...

I'm not trying to deny credit from Taylor here. He was one of the best directors the show had. But it's silly to pretend that D&D were just kicking up their feet in their trailer while a series of directors and editors came in each week and made the show good in spite of their efforts.

 

This is a massive oversimplification, especially when it comes to television, which is a much more collaborative process than writing a novel. Great television producers/writers constantly have to make hard choices based on real world factors. One of the factors that's worth considering is the quality of your actors: Michael Emerson was meant for a four episode stint on Lost until the producers saw what he was capable of and made him the leader of the Others, in the process creating an all-time classic television villain and character. Aaron Paul was meant for one season of Breaking Bad, but became the heart of the show.

Frankly, one of the best things D&D ever did was streamlining so much of the mess of AFFC/ADWD by making Cersei a more central character and villain, and is a great example of a smart  television writing choice that plays to a quality actor. There's a reason The Winds of Winter is one of the highest rated episodes of the show, and why GRRM is still stuck in the middle of the second act of his novels, twenty-two years later...

Edit: on Qarth - I agree that this part of the show is not a masterpiece. But it ain't no masterpiece in the books either. At least the show gave us a snarky Spicer King and Warlock Dean Pelton.

Hmm, AFFC and ADWD had their issues, but Dorne, the North, the Vale, and the Faith were handled far better in books than the show.

Edited August 20, 2022 by SeanF

[C.T. Phipps]

Subjectivity is inevitable in discerning what is "better" in an adaptation.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I guess Han Solo is a lovable rogue and Daemon isn't.

Pretty much this. 

"Lovable rogue" = Tyrion for the critics.

I feel like season 2 will see the introduction of some lovable underdogs.

[Caligula_K3]

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Hmm, AFFC and ADWD had their issues, but Dorne, the North, the Vale, and the Faith were handled far better in books than the show.

The North, absolutely. Dorne I find equally tedious in books and show, though for different reasons. The other two... I'll need to see the payoff in Winds of Winter before I can judge, though right now I'm leaning towards the show. Sansa's third chapter in AFFC is by itself one of my least favourite chapters in the series.

Anyway, I know a lot of people prefer AFFC/ADWD over Seasons 5-6, and have no issue with that. I just wanted to point to the difficulties of adapting sprawling epic fantasy stories for television. I'll stop debating books vs. show now so we can get back discussing HOTD! Which I  hope that I'll love.

As someone who loves rogueish characters, having one of those would definitely help...

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, Ran said:

Pretty much this. 

"Lovable rogue" = Tyrion for the critics.

I feel like season 2 will see the introduction of some lovable underdogs.

Like Blood and Cheese.

But I fully expect the critics to be out of step with this show every step of the way.

[Lord Varys]

I'm not sure why anyone ever liked Daemon. The guy is more a well-built version of the Mad King than a rogue in any sense. He is privileged prince who covets a throne ... and behaves like an ass, most of the time. Truly as changeable as flame, that one.

I'm always at a loss when George describes him as a guy who does good and bad things. In the actual book he wrote he is an ass and suspected to be behind some really bad things. But he never does anything good at all. He isn't a very developled character. Being a decent general for a time isn't something that makes you 'good'. Just not stupid.

[C.T. Phipps]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure why anyone ever liked Daemon. The guy is more a well-built version of the Mad King than a rogue in any sense. He is privileged prince who covets a throne ... and behaves like an ass, most of the time. Truly as changeable as flame, that one.

I'm always at a loss when George describes him as a guy who does good and bad things. In the actual book he wrote he is an ass and suspected to be behind some really bad things. But he never does anything good at all. He isn't a very developled character. Being a decent general for a time isn't something that makes you 'good'. Just not stupid.

Because he's a charming asshole and gets things done.

* He reforms the goldcloaks

* He conquers the Stepstones after their piracy

* He clearly has none of the typical Westerosi xenophobia

* He's a badass dragon rider

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Ran]

I think some things can't really be explained. Either you get it or you don't.

@C.T. Phipps

I was thinking some of the dragonseeds, more so, but... uh, sure? Heh.

[C.T. Phipps]

Just now, Ran said:

I think some things can't really be explained. Either you get it or you don't.

@C.T. Phipps

I was thinking some of the dragonseeds, more so, but... uh, sure? Heh.

No, I'm being facetious.

But sadly all of the rogues but Daemon are real scumbags like Hugh the Hammer.

[butterweedstrover]

Bronn would be the Han Solo character. 
 

Daemon is more Jaime without the redemption arc. I hope they don’t make him too edgy, his character always felt more style over substance. 
 

He is a version of darkstar who gets a chance to prove himself. For him to be complex they need him to feel conflicted about something, he can’t just be an confident badass.

[SeanF]

Perhaps Prince Daeron will be the “loveable rogue.”  A noble knight who burns civilians alive in a sept.

 

[Ran]

Alyn Velaryon is the Han Solo of the post-Dance era, at least.

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Daemon is more Jaime without the redemption arc. I hope they don’t make him too edgy, his character always felt more style over substance.

I think Nettles is Daemon's redemption.

[The Bard of Banefort]

14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Because he's a charming asshole and gets things done.

* He reforms the goldcloaks

* He conquers the Stepstones after their piracy

* He clearly has none of the typical Westerosi xenophobia

* He's a badass dragon rider

 

I’d say that for most of his life, Daemon was plenty xenophobic. He had a Valyrian fetish: the women he coveted—Mysaria, Laena, Rhaenyra—all looked the same. His Westerosi wife, he despised. It wasn’t until Nettles that this changed.

Jace was very reminiscent of Robb in the books, so hopefully they keep that.

Reviewers seem to be split on Daemon. Some find him roguish and fun, others find him a tiresome man-child. As was to be expected, fewer people are willing to hand-wave away the grooming than they were ten years ago. We’ll have to see how people react to Daemon getting what he wants and marrying his niece.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’d say that for most of his life, Daemon was plenty xenophobic. He had a Valyrian fetish: the women he coveted—Mysaria, Laena, Rhaenyra—all looked the same. His Westerosi wife, he despised. It wasn’t until Nettles that this changed.

Jace was very reminiscent of Robb in the books, so hopefully they keep that.

Reviewers seem to be split on Daemon. Some find him roguish and fun, others find him a tiresome man-child. As was to be expected, fewer people are willing to hand-wave away the grooming than they were ten years ago. We’ll have to see how people react to Daemon getting what he wants and marrying his niece.

I mean, he's her fucking uncle. Targaryen incest is something that they were never going to like but is part of the DNA of the setting.

[The Bard of Banefort]

9 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I think Nettles is Daemon's redemption.

Maybe. But to me, it just seemed like a guy who had used his wife since she was a teenager abandoning her when she needed him the most for another teenager.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, he's her fucking uncle. Targaryen incest is something that they were never going to like but is part of the DNA of the setting.

I think it’s her age that bothers people, not the incest.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 minute ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think it’s her age that bothers people, not the incest.

I mean, it should be both but their romance doesn't begin until the age jump.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe. But to me, it just seemed like a guy who had used his wife since she was a teenager abandoning her when she needed him the most for another teenager.

I don't think there's any chance they're romantically involved. And dying rather than hurting her is a thing.