the next House of the Dragon thread

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

This is going to sound insane but I kind of wonder if George R.R. Martin wasn't inspired by all the people who wanted him to appoint a successor for his books if he died. Because really, Otto is the architect of his own ruin because Viserys is still a man capable of siring an heir and his fear of Daemon Targaryen is perhaps justified but I don't think he comprehended how short sighted this all was.

Yeah, the guy is just a gigantic moron. To have a preliminary ruling on the succession could have been nice, a precaution what's do to if Viserys were to die without a son. But not the kind of formal investiture they ended up doing.

And Viserys is still very young at that time, he can and most likely would eventually remarry, Daemon could predecease him or Daemon could finally have sons of his own which Viserys could then install as heirs if he wanted to pass over Daemon, etc.

2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Mind you, I do hope we see Otto happy about Aegon's birth and then utterly FLUMMOXED by Viserys saying he's not changing the succession.

Like, that has to be a moment. Especially since Viserys went with everything Otto said up until this point.

That is definitely going to be a great scene. Especially since Viserys will most likely not want to offend his father-in-law and Hand.

I also enjoyed how they present Otto as 'imperious'. The guy really likes to talk as if he himself was 'the Crown' and he was speaking for it, even if the king is in the room right there with them.

I'm so looking forward for Aegon handing his ass to him. I hope the brat is going to slap him in the face, not just taking the chain from him, having the KG drag him out of the throne room. I always disliked it that Joff never had the opportunity to put Tywin in his place, but Aegon II will teach Otto who's running things, even if he is running things very badly...

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

After watching the character trailers, it does look like Rhaenyra is going to start off as a bit of a brat, judging by her line about how the Great Council rejected Rhaenys, not her. Ironically, Milly Alcock even said that “people see Rhaenyra as kind of a brat” lol.

That seems to be pretty much in-character. She is a spoiled brat and that should show. Just not by her wanting to be a knight and other such nonsense. If she wanted to train at arms, somebody would have trained her. She got everything she wanted.

[Angel Eyes]

On 8/16/2022 at 8:23 AM, Lord Varys said:

That seems to be a kind of weirdo fantasy of certain parts of the fandom. The Starks are our first POVs in this story/world ... but they are not the only heroes, nor are they (necessarily) the destined saviors of mankind or the people who actually preserved the knowledge about the Others, etc.

I, personally, would be quite intrigued by a detailed history of the Starks or any of the other great houses of the Seven Kingdoms ... but George seemed to think that without the dragons such histories would be quite too common and mundane to be told. And he isn't all *that wrong* there. The history of the Starks will be mostly a story of mundane bloody conquests, backstabbing, succession wars, etc.

Well, in the case of the Starks, the current Stark family appears to be out of place in the world of Westeros; they seem like your standard High Fantasy protagonists, ala Lord of the Rings, dropped into a medieval world run on realpolitik and virtue is weakness. If you've seen the Predator films, think about how the main characters are like Rambo carbon-copies... that get dropped into an Alien-esque film. The second Predator film replaces the Rambo-esque commandos with cops that wouldn't look out of place in Lethal Weapon (in fact the main character is played by the same actor who played Murtaugh).

[The Bard of Banefort]

32 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I'm actually not sure. I thought the review embargo has been lifted already, no?

It looks like it’s being lifted on Friday.

29 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Well they're on different nights and different genres. The big issue with Obi Wan and Miss Marvel was that they released on the same evening.

And even then, I think it was just Miss Marvel didn't have the same brand recognition among older fans.

I don’t think they’ll be competing for viewers. I just think it’s kind of ironic that we all were focused on Rings of Power when it looks like She-Hulk will be significantly bigger. 

I’m glad we don’t have to wait any longer for HOTD, but it is a weird decision to have it air simultaneously with TROP. If they had waited until November, it wouldn’t have had much competition at all.

Also, when is Disney going to make their Black Cauldron/Sword in the Stone remakes that they have been talking about for years? Those are some fantasy films that actually could really benefit from a live-action reboot. (And wasn’t Bryan Cogman writing one or both of them?) I watched both when Disney+ first came out and they both had so much potential. The writers just didn’t seem to quite know how to utilize it.

[EggBlue]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Bah, so the Great Council is indeed Rhaenys vs. Viserys, not Laenor vs. Viserys. Guys, you are changing the story there.

Really enjoy Otto being such a pompous ass in that video. 'Well, Your Grace, your beloved wife just died ... which means we must now discuss YOUR SUCCESSION because that's the most important issue of all time!'

What a moron this guy is, really.

Apparently they completely botched Corlys' backstory by making the pre-Corlys Velaryons poor folks and had him do his great voyages after he became lord. Neither is true. The earler Velaryons were rich, but not as rich as hell as they were under Corlys, and Corlys went on his voyages while his grandfather still ruled Driftmark, living the free and adventurous life of a (spare) heir.

Really a letdown if that's also how they are going to portray him in his show.

Also, who the hell wrote that weirdo line about storms: 'To elude a storm you can either sail into it or around it but you must never await its coming' What?! I don't think sailing into it means you are going to elude the something you sail into but what do I know Awaiting it could very well you elude it since it might end up going the other way or dissolve.

what is this Corlys info based on? will you share the link?

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

what is this Corlys info based on? will you share the link?

I found the videos on the HOTD subreddit.

[C.T. Phipps]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:43 PM, Ran said:

Though, that said, we're not really going to review the show, as I think I've remarked. It doesn't quite seem right to me to review something that was created for TWoIaF. It'd be like reviewing my own book.

Speaking as someone who owns the original book as well as Fire and Blood, I think we'd love a gushing review of the events from the perspective of someone who helped make it in literary form. The greatest review ever, for example, was Anne Rice's review of Interview with a Vampire in Vanity Fair.

https://www.maths.tcd.ie/~forest/vamipre/morecomments.html

I, for one, would love to read pages of, "Ooo, it looks just like I imagined Rhaenyra's dress to look at the tournament!"

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There was all this talk about HOTD vs. TROP, but looking at the trends, HBO should have been more worried about She-Hulk.

Speaking of which, I don't know how reliable the Google Trends function is, but it seems like even at this point more people are talking about GoT than HotD.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Speaking of which, I don't know how reliable the Google Trends function is, but it seems like even at this point more people are talking about GoT than HotD.

It’s weird, because what would people be googling GOT about everyday for? Once you find the HBO page (or torrent site), you don’t need to keep looking it up. There’s no new information coming out. Is it just for the wiki?

 

I suspect that after the first episode of HOTD premieres on Sunday, we’ll see a split among fans who are thrilled that HOTD “brought back” all the magic of watching GOT, and those who are disappointed to find that nothing can bring back that feeling again. (I remember feeling that way during the S5 finale, when Dany was being swarmed by the Dothraki. For a second it was like we were back in S1 again).

[Lord Varys]

By the way - does anybody else loathe the fact that they stole Rhaenys' black hair? They give Rhaenyra's sons dark hair, so why not her?

3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, in the case of the Starks, the current Stark family appears to be out of place in the world of Westeros; they seem like your standard High Fantasy protagonists, ala Lord of the Rings, dropped into a medieval world run on realpolitik and virtue is weakness. If you've seen the Predator films, think about how the main characters are like Rambo carbon-copies... that get dropped into an Alien-esque film. The second Predator film replaces the Rambo-esque commandos with cops that wouldn't look out of place in Lethal Weapon (in fact the main character is played by the same actor who played Murtaugh).

I mean, I don't really like the haughty attitude of the Starks - 'the man who speaks the sentence should swing the sword' (which is actually kind of unvoluntarily funny because this actually means Eddard Stark must be his own very busy headsman) - or their hard take on life and its dangers - seven-year-olds should attend executions and not look away, etc.

I don't think they are better people, just somewhat different. Ned and Cat kind of help us to understand the court intrigue environment since they are outsiders, etc.

But if you are honest with yourself then there was never any sign that the Starks were able or equipped or capable to deal with the Others. Some of them like Jon and Bran would play key roles in that struggle, but it was always clear that the dragon guys were the ones who had to deal with that shit.

And it is not the case that George plays up their role in the mystical department. The last greenseer is a Targaryen bastard, not a Stark relation, Bran's guides and mentors are not Stark cousins but from an obscure First Men family which is kind of looked down upon in the North (the Reeds only have such good ties to the present Starks because of Ned's friendship with Howland), the aged maester at the Wall is a forgotten Targaryen prince who could have been king, etc.

George could have easily made it so that the Starks had their own version of the promised prince prophecy. But they clearly do not.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

30 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’s weird, because what would people be googling GOT about everyday for? Once you find the HBO page (or torrent site), you don’t need to keep looking it up. There’s no new information coming out.

Also, Google Trends doesn't seem to indicate much buzz around She-Hulk. HotD is absolutely demolishing it there. Are you using some other sources, maybe?

 

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way - does anybody else loathe the fact that they stole Rhaenys' black hair?

Yeah, and for some reason it also bugs me that Aemma Arryn looks indistinguishable from a Targaryen. I know that she's supposed to be an older woman, but still. If I was a regular viewer, I'd be confused.

[C.T. Phipps]

I mean House of the Dragon has been trending all day on Twitter.

[Lord Varys]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, and for some reason it also bugs me that Aemma Arryn looks indistinguishable from a Targaryen. I know that she's supposed to be an older woman, but still. If I was a regular viewer, I'd be confused.

Not sure if they stress the fact that she is an Arryn on her father's side - that she is Viserys' first cousin is likely going to be mentioned. Else her distinct Targaryen looks would make little sense.

Regarding Rhaenys - it is especially vexing since her whole Baratheon link is actually a rather crucial part of the story, so her hair color could have been used to introduce this to the audience and help to remember it.

Not to mention that it could have helped to establish that while the Valyrian looks run strong in House Targaryen, not everybody must have them ... nor are they who lack (parts of) them are viewed as 'less' in some manner.

[Lord Varys]

Regarding Queen Aemma:

@Ran Did you ever get a description of her coloring from George? Does it make sense for us readers to imagine her canonically as a woman with classical Valyrian features ... or is this, to your knowledge, a show invention, like Alicent being dark-haired might be?

This is a pretty important question, I think, for all those characters who are first actually depicted by the show.

[The Dragon Demands]

Ugh, I'm desperately trying to wrap up everything I wanted to get done before the premiere launches the new House of the Dragon era. 

But we just got a last minute casting update in a press release from Warner Media's website: 

https://pressroom.warnermedia.com/us/bio/house-dragon-character-descriptions

• Confirms all the child actors playing Rhaenyra, Daemon, and Alicent's children in episodes 6 and 7 (except Aegon II) who we already knew about because they all appeared at the global premiere red carpet events! (and they leaked months ago). Also finally acknowledged that Elliott Grihoult is older Luke Velaryon. 
• Also confirmed the Tittensor twins as the Cargyll twins, we knew about that months ago from leak images. And we'd already heard about casting for Joffrey Lonmouth, Grand Maester Orwyle, etc.
• Confirms what was rumored for months without photos: Roger Evans is Borros Baratheon. He may in fact be the knight who asks for Rhaenys's favor during the tournament in episode 1, shown in a clip that came out today.
• Paul Kennedy is Jasper "Ironrod" Wylde (he previously appeared as a minor Eyrie guard early in Season 5)
• Phil Daniels as Maester Gerardys

This will probably be the last casting update before Season 1 itself. 

Now any new character who comes will be a surprise we didn't anticipate. For all we know they did cast a "young Cregan Stark" but if they did, they kept a very tight lid on it and we haven't heard a single word of it. 

Also only have three out of form Baratheon sisters and no mention of Borros's wife, though it's possible she simply wasn't cast yet with such little dialogue in season 1. 

....yeah I think Gwayne Hightower is in episode 1 but we don't know who plays him. Saw what I think is Gwayne in the new Otto Hightower featurette.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, Google Trends doesn't seem to indicate much buzz around She-Hulk. HotD is absolutely demolishing it there. Are you using some other sources, maybe?

 

Yeah, and for some reason it also bugs me that Aemma Arryn looks indistinguishable from a Targaryen. I know that she's supposed to be an older woman, but still. If I was a regular viewer, I'd be confused.

No, Google Trends. It might just be the time frame that’s different. I was just looking at the past few days: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now 1-d&q=%2Fg%2F11j0n257zd,%2Fg%2F11fpjwy3zp

For Twitter, I was looking at Variety: https://variety.com/t/trending-tv/ (Granted, Twitter is a little weird in general considering all the controversy over bots. I remember when Venom and A Star is Born came out the same weekend, some Lady Gaga fans created bots warning people against seeing Venom because they didn’t want it to beat ASIB at the box office haha)

Like I said, I don’t think it’s an either/or thing. It’s just that it looks like She-Hulk is shaping to be more popular than most of us had expected. I’ve never really been much of a superhero fan myself, unfortunately.

(Also, I had no idea Amazon made an A League of Their Own Show. Is it any good?)

[zionius]

Someone noted this in TWOIAF: "Septon Barth's claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth's queerer beliefs and suppositions." Is it from GRRM?

[The Bard of Banefort]

Just now, zionius said:

Someone noted this in TWOIAF: "Septon Barth's claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth's queerer beliefs and suppositions." Is it from GRRM?

Is that the one that has something to do with Lannister gold?

[Ran]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is that the one that has something to do with Lannister gold?

In context, it's about whether the first level of the Hightower was built by the Valyrians and, if so, why. Barth suggests that it was built by them in fact, and suggests that they were motivated by that prophecy thousands of years ago.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, zionius said:

Someone noted this in TWOIAF: "Septon Barth's claim that the Valyrians came to Westeros because their priests prophesied that the Doom of Man would come out of the land beyond the narrow sea can safely be dismissed as nonsense, as can many of Barth's queerer beliefs and suppositions." Is it from GRRM?

Of course, Ran and Linda would never make up something like that. I wrote above already that this would clearly be the kind of thing that Aenar/Daenys and later Aegon and his sisters may have known in addition to promised prince prophecy stuff ... influencing their decisions to move to Dragonstone and eventually to (try to) unify all of Westeros.

In light of that I'd even think that the term 'promised prince' would be something Aegon and his sisters coined after the Conquest had made them proper kings and queens and their sons princes ... because there is little to no way that the Dragonstonian Targaryens or the Valyrian Freeholders viewed themselves as 'princes' in the sense of 'royal children' (there were 'sorcerer princes' in Valyria, of course, but that seems to denote a certain rank within an order of sorcerers rather than the honorific for the son of a ruler). We do know that the core prophecy about the savior born amidst smoke and salt, etc. is thousands of years old, so it is much, much older than House Targaryen (in its present form). And something must have happened convincing the Targaryens that this prophecy referred to them and that it was connected to Westeros. It may be that Daenys made both those connections, but I'm getting a feeling that George might indeed reveal that Aegon the Conqueror himself (or his father Lord Aerion) had a prophetic dream or two, convincing him that conquering and unifying of Westeros was Aegon's destiny.

There must be more to all that the arbitrary interpretation of ancient scrolls and the mad and superstitious belief in esoteric prophecies which could just as well fulfill themselves. These Targaryens must have a reason to care for this Westeros place. The author has to give them a reason, or else most of their actions are indeed as mad as many of them are supposed to be.

(Not to mention that an interpretation of them as 'stewards of Westeros' rather than ambitious, glory-seeking conquerors would help tremendously to explain all their stupid political decisions - like not establishing a proper central monarchy, no work to create an absolutist regime, no standing army, no colonization/repopulation of (certain reaches of) Westeros by Valyrian peoples, no introduction of Valyrian religion, culture, language, or practices. If they thought their job was basically to protect this place for the good of all mankind then many of their actions do make more sense. Especially their peaceful approach and their apparent disinterest to use the power a united Westeros would have given them to extend their political power to Essos, the Stepstones, or even the Summer Isles.)

11 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is that the one that has something to do with Lannister gold?

No, that's the other one. There are two of those. The first one is in the Reach chapter about the mysterious origins of Oldtown, already quoted by @zionius, the other is this one from the Westerlands chapter:

Quote

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold's sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

No idea how to interpret this, or if this even refers to the Doom of Valyria or not rather to the downfall of Aerys II and most of his descendants (at the hands of the Lannisters and in part by a sword gilded with gold from Casterly Rock) ... although I must say I don't like such outlandish interpretations of prophecies (but then ... we have no clue what would have actually been written in that long-lost Valyrian text). Since the weirdo Hugh Hammer prophecy from FaB is also in the same way kind of foreshadowing Robert's victory over Rhaegar I imagine George is not beyond that take on prophecies. But then - again, I'm pretty sure no proper Valyrian dragonlord would recognize himself in an image of mad dragonless Aerys, clad like a savage feudal king. It is like assuming Louis XIV having a prophetic dream would recognize Macron as the ruler of France despite his outlandish attire...

If one goes with the Doom of Valyria interpretation then whatever transactions in Braavos in the House of Black and White led to the Faceless Men orchestrating the Doom might very well have been conducted with coins whose gold ultimately came from Casterly Rock.

[C.T. Phipps]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yeah, the guy is just a gigantic moron. To have a preliminary ruling on the succession could have been nice, a precaution what's do to if Viserys were to die without a son. But not the kind of formal investiture they ended up doing.

And Viserys is still very young at that time, he can and most likely would eventually remarry, Daemon could predecease him or Daemon could finally have sons of his own which Viserys could then install as heirs if he wanted to pass over Daemon, etc.

I feel like Otto really overdid it and that's the great irony there. Having a massive council and people swearing allegiance certainl was impressive as well as knocked Daemon out of the succession but Lord Baelish would have figured out it would have been much easier to, say, have Daemon disinherited (leaving Rhaenyra as the only candidate) or just make a royal decree saying, "Rhaenyra is my heir until the time as I sire a male heir of my own blood."

Which, as we see with Robert, could have been torn apart but would have led to a lot less confusion. Of course, it would have led to Aegon II being king and he would have been another Aegon the Unworthy anyway. So, who knows.

Quote

That is definitely going to be a great scene. Especially since Viserys will most likely not want to offend his father-in-law and Hand.

I also enjoyed how they present Otto as 'imperious'. The guy really likes to talk as if he himself was 'the Crown' and he was speaking for it, even if the king is in the room right there with them.

I'm so looking forward for Aegon handing his ass to him. I hope the brat is going to slap him in the face, not just taking the chain from him, having the KG drag him out of the throne room. I always disliked it that Joff never had the opportunity to put Tywin in his place, but Aegon II will teach Otto who's running things, even if he is running things very badly...

To be fair, there's a substantial differrence between Aegon the Grown Adult ManTM and King of Westeros due to his dragons as well as armies to his grandfather and Tywin Lannister who is the primary holder of all of Joffrey's armies. But yes, I actually think this reminds me of what I like about Martin's villains most: a lot of them not only make mistakes but they're INCOMPETENT.

One of things I've increasingly realized about the "baddies" in RL is the fact that if you actually examine their actions, they are rarely evil masterminds but often incredibly foolish in their decisions because they have no limits on their behavior. It makes me look forward to more Otto and Alicent as they dig their own graves.

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That seems to be pretty much in-character. She is a spoiled brat and that should show. Just not by her wanting to be a knight and other such nonsense. If she wanted to train at arms, somebody would have trained her. She got everything she wanted.

I feel like your hostility to Rhaenyra is kind of overdone, though I point out that Rhaenyra doesn't NEED to be knight errant because she's already a dragonrider. Anything she could and could not do as a knight, she can do more as a rider of a flaming WMD. They also seem to be dramatically toning down her imperiousness with things like the ridiculous idea she wouldn't want to go to war with her brother until her son's death.

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By the way - does anybody else loathe the fact that they stole Rhaenys' black hair? They give Rhaenyra's sons dark hair, so why not her?

I dunno, I think they wanted to make it distinct who the Targaryens were and weren't. It also rather serves as the biggest evidence of the Strong blood among the Velaryon bloodline. Mind you, I'm surprised we don't see any cases of hair dye among the Targaryen descendants.

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(Not to mention that an interpretation of them as 'stewards of Westeros' rather than ambitious, glory-seeking conquerors would help tremendously to explain all their stupid political decisions - like not establishing a proper central monarchy, no work to create an absolutist regime, no standing army, no colonization/repopulation of (certain reaches of) Westeros by Valyrian peoples, no introduction of Valyrian religion, culture, language, or practices. If they thought their job was basically to protect this place for the good of all mankind then many of their actions do make more sense. Especially their peaceful approach and their apparent disinterest to use the power a united Westeros would have given them extend their political power to Essos, the Stepstones, or even the Summer Isles.)

Frankly, I feel like this argument is one that flat out doesn't make any amount of sense. Valyria has been dead for a century by the point that Aegon the Conqueror moves to take Westeros and whatever advantages the Targaryens have with their three dragons, they have apparently managed to hold nothing in terms of Essos dominions. It is an isolated outpost and island kingdom that is Westerosi in culture except for its monarchy.

There's no way to colonize Valyrian peoples in Westeros because Valyria has ceased to exist and all of the Valyrian successor states are often people who HATE Valyria, were Valyria's slaves, or have their distinct cultures. Or to put it differently, if Rome was destroyed by a Volcano, it may have ruled Egypt (Mereen) but rebuilding Rome with Egyptians won't work.

I also do think you understate the amount of work the Targaryens did to try to centralize Westeros with the establishment of its new capital, monarchy, the creation of the Crownlands, and so on. Admittedly, Jhaehayrs does most of the actual empire building but that's because Aegon spent almost his entire time fighting Dorne in the futile effort to finish his conquest.