Rings of Power: A New Thread to Rule them All

[karaddin]

My biggest issue with the troll fight wasn't even the over the top fighting, but that it didn't even look good when taken as that. 

It feels to me like the changes to Galadriel are to draw a clear line between this story and the material they don't have the rights to. They might feel that dancing around it by omission doesn't leave them in a safe enough spot, so changed things explicitly to ensure they're not accused of over stepping. With that in mind, I *think* that her commitment to chasing Sauron is meant to play as obsession with revenge to still give her character darkness, rather than it being supposed to be seen as admirable. 

The glaring problem with this approach is that we know she's right, so it completely undercuts any chance of it actually coming across like that.

On Halbarand - I thought he said Elves didn't force him from his home, not that they did?

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Plus, PLEASE! don't turn this topic into a discussion of the what the book(s) said or didn't say.  Keep it to what we get on the screen PLEASE!  It is boring and pointless to make any screen presentation be about books instead of the subject at hand.  If you hate this isn't the printed word, go read the printed word again, but don't fill endless screens ranting this isn't the printed word PLEASE!

LOL, there isn't much in the books to go with here, but pointing out how the show gutted basic aspects of the characters we got (e.g. Galadriel, Elrond) isn't about the books. It is about those characters ... and how they have been presented up to this point (the Jackson movies included).

This is also not a thread to praise this show or talk about it only in the manner you prefer. Most people who actually read Tolkien are going to watch this show with their knowledge about this stuff in mind. Although I must say that it is pretty much pointless to even try to connect this stuff to the source material - it is so far away from that (and so badly written at times) that it would be mostly a waste of time.

[Calibandar]

Just watched episode 1. Overall, I liked it a great deal, especially the First Age stuff and Lindon, Gil-Galad as well.

In this first episode at the end they are very strongly suggesting The Stranger is Sauron though, that would be very odd if that is true but based on just this episode its either Annatar after all, or deliberate wrong footing of the audience of course.

[Lord Varys]

Does anybody who cares about things know why there is, so far, no Celeborn and whether that's going to change in the future? Has he been cast so far?

7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

My biggest issue with the troll fight wasn't even the over the top fighting, but that it didn't even look good when taken as that. 

It feels to me like the changes to Galadriel are to draw a clear line between this story and the material they don't have the rights to.

I don't think that's much of a rights issue. Thematically, it would have been very easy to reproduce kind of Galadriel's actual motivation without actually reproducing dialogue or plot from the Silmarillion or Unfinished Tales. Give her an invented scene back in Valinor about her feeling trapped in that artificial paradise. Give her stuff about losing folks in Middle-earth/various conflicts, and have her being too proud to accept forgiveness and/or the strong desire to things through till the very end.

Easily enough done.

The writers seem so detached from the actual source material and the rights they acquired that don't even use the stuff they have rights, too. For instance, the appendices do state that Celebrimbor is decended from Feanor. Not how exactly, but the fact is established. So when they have his hammer there and mention him Celebrimbor could have mentioned that the guy was his ancestor. Hell, he could have even said that he was his grandsire or something like that since that's something you can make up independently of the Silmarillion if you just check Elven generations and stuff.

But, no.

Galadriel's and Gil-galad's kinship may be a harder nut to crack, but nobody could sue them if they establish they are great-aunt and great-nephew (as per the final setting where Gil-galad is Orodreth's sons who is Angrod's son who was Galadriel's brother) without digging to deep into this, first cousin once removed (if he is Fingon's son) or just aunt-nephew if they cast him as Finrod's son (which Tolkien entertained for a time, too, and which would be the way I'd have gone in this show if the Galadriel-Finrod connection is so important for the Galadriel character).

Must say I don't really like the weirdo obsession with titles and styles the Elves seem to have. So Celebrimbor is some 'Lord', Gil-galad is some kind of aloof king shielded by his court from 'common people'. Yes, there are Elven kings ... but there isn't much of an Elven nobility in the setting.

And Galadriel is just a common 'commander'. Please.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Watched the two episodes twice.

My initial thoughts:

• The Dwarves hands-down steal the show here. Their characterisation as a people is infinitely better than anything Jackson managed.
• Warrior Galadriel is fine... but Galadriel getting kicked West for political reasons was damned weird. I mean, it can be rationalised as Gil-galad giving people authority to sail from the Grey Havens (one hell of a power grab), but that sort of thing ought to be out of his control. Worse, it seems to imply that Second Age Valinor cannot be reached by standard travel... the mystical light feels more Third Age.
• Galadriel jumping overboard and swimming in the ocean is also just bad. I am going to rationalise this as the show trying to show that Galadriel did indeed refuse to go West, while finding an excuse for her to wind up in Numenor.
• I am sold on this Celebrimbor. Great acting (I do visualise him as a Mad Scientist type), and the references to Feanor and the Silmarils cheered me no-end.
• The Elvish kids sinking Galadriel's origami swan-ship... come on, guys. It's a reference to Feanor's later shenanigans, stealing and destroying the real ships. Symbolism and all that.
• Dialogue was a bit hit or miss. Sometimes a case of trying to be poetic and failing. But they were making an effort.
• The Harfoots were perfectly fine. So far as Meteor Dude goes, there's multiple different reasons for thinking it's either Sauron or Gandalf (or just a Blue Wizard, my preferred situation). If he's Gandalf, that really increases the odds on Halbrand ("appearances can be deceptive" is one of his first lines!).
• They've got Arondir set up as the show-Legolas, though the Stoicism means his character feels a bit wooden. I was fine with the Elves looking over the Southlands for generations... we elsewhere see references to how the Elven view of time screws with their relationship with others.
• The Orc in the house scene might have made for the creepiest Orc to have ever appeared in a Tolkien adaptation. A long way from the cannon-fodder of Jackson.

Overall, I'd give this 7.5/10, with the Dwarves as the strong point, and Galadriel as the weak point. And yes, it's fanfiction. We've known it is fanfiction since Day One, and that they were circumscribed by rights issues.

[The Marquis de Leech]

No idea on the Celeborn front. He might wind up in a later season - we are literally only two episodes into the first of five seasons.

[Ser Drewy]

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• I am sold on this Celebrimbor. Great acting (I do visualise him as a Mad Scientist type), and the references to Feanor and the Silmarils cheered me no-end.

I liked his comments on his respect for the dwarves.... which just made Elrond being the 'dwarf pal' even weirder to me unfortunately. Which is a shame as I actually liked Durin/Disa's dynamic. I'm guessing the dwarves have found Mithril... which probably means Durin's Bane is coming at some point in this show. Guess this'll play into how well the timeline stuff works. 

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It's a reference to Feanor's later shenanigans, stealing and destroying the real ships. Symbolism and all that.

Thing is, I don't get why Feanor and the Sils were missing from the prologue. I guess they might do more backstory later. But I felt they were important to show. I wonder if Celebrimbor's comments mean much to casual viewers. (Maybe I just want to see Feanor, IDK). 

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

No idea on the Celeborn front. He might wind up in a later season - we are literally only two episodes into the first of five seasons.

Well, the fact that he should have been there already is the reason why this question comes up.

I'd have never even thought about adapting this era without having a Celeborn in it as a main character. He and Galadriel and Elrond are the TA fixtures of this era. Everybody else would be (mostly) new. Gil-galad is kind of known as an important historical person.

Perhaps one could go with them not being married yet ... but he would have been there from the start. Hell, in context he could have even been the supreme commander of the Elves keeping the filthy men in check.

The Celebrimbor actor's acting is fine, but his make-up/age isn't. Elves shouldn't look old or even worn. If Jackson got one thing right then the ageless look of the Elves.

Regarding the 'Willow' ripoff claim - I so much get this vibe from the Hobbit girl wanting to explore the world, the elder folks being conservative about the outside world, them hiding in a ridiculous fashion from 'bigger people' ... and some magical being literally falling into their lap.

[DMC]

54 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I *think* that her commitment to chasing Sauron is meant to play as obsession with revenge to still give her character darkness

The darkness is literally emphasized with them holding back Finrod's whispered advice until the end of the first episode.  Given the constraints, I don't think anyone could possibly please Tolkein devotees when it comes to Galadriel's depiction.

I do agree - and meant to mention last night - that the first ep did a bit of a disservice to her in terms of her standing vis-a-vis Elrond and Gil-Galad.  There should have been much more deference to her than was portrayed.  But that's minor whining which I'm trying to skip over in these threads - perhaps an impossible task.

Why Gil-Galad just gets to decide when these certain groups of elves get to (have to?) go back to Valinor, now yeah, that was much more of a WTF? thing that was pretty weird and reflects lazy writing.

Also, I must have blocked out the troll fight.  Actually, I wasn't really paying attention and mostly making fun of it.  When they said "it's a snow-troll" or whatever I started Mystery Science Theater'ing it with my brother and arguing it should just be the snow monster on Hoth in Empire.

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 minute ago, Ser Drewy said:

I liked his comments on his respect for the dwarves.... which just made Elrond being the 'dwarf pal' even weirder to me unfortunately. Which is a shame as I actually liked Durin/Disa's dynamic. I'm guessing the dwarves have found Mithril... which probably means Durin's Bane is coming at some point in this show. Guess this'll play into how well the timeline stuff works. 

Thing is, I don't get why Feanor and the Sils were missing from the prologue. I guess they might do more backstory later. But I felt they were important to show. I wonder if Celebrimbor's comments mean much to casual viewers. (Maybe I just want to see Feanor, IDK). 

Oh, I agree Elrond's a bit of a weird choice for a Khazadphile, but this Elrond has been established as good with words, and a diplomat. That gets him interacting with other people readily enough - preferable, given that we need him to be a focus-point character throughout all five seasons. Show Celebrimbor obsesses about the same things as Dwarves, but it's possible he's more the sort to lock himself away with his crafting, rather than reach out to others. Possibly. I'm again trying to rationalise.

The Prologue was clearly trying to keep things simple. Including Mad Uncle Feanor might be fun for us geeks, but it's taking up exposition time from what was already an exposition-heavy episode.

[Mithras]

39 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The Harfoots were perfectly fine. So far as Meteor Dude goes, there's multiple different reasons for thinking it's either Sauron or Gandalf (or just a Blue Wizard, my preferred situation). If he's Gandalf, that really increases the odds on Halbrand ("appearances can be deceptive" is one of his first lines!).

Agreed. Though, I wonder how the Annatar story will work if Sauron is Halbrand. He should help Celembrimbor make the rings of power at some point. Perhaps that is the stuff of next season.

[Farerb]

I assume the reason they didn't include Celeborn in the show was because it would’ve made very little sense in their story for Galadriel to have a husband and still be traveling all over Middle Earth on her revenge quest.

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I must say that it is pretty much pointless to even try to connect this stuff to the source material - it is so far away from that (and so badly written at times) that it would be mostly a waste of time.

So, um, why are you doing it? 

[Cas Stark]

11 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

After seeing the first episode all I can say is that it's okay and better than WoT, which I gave up on very quickly. The cinematography is gorgeous, so at least it has that.

Yeah, that is about my feeling.  I watched all of WOT, but without much interest, I will give the second season a go even though it wasn't very good.  I'm sure I will watch all of this, and so far yes, it is better than WoT, but not by a whole lot.

I must have called D&D hacks about 1000x on this site, but, while they still had the source material, they had a deft touch and did a very good job of crystalizing a character within 1 or 2 scenes, and that is a skill that this show, so far, doesn't have.  I saw a lot of various people show up, but not much characterization beyond generic 'warrior woman' 'wise man', 'stoic warrior', 'comedy', etc.

Rocks look down and ships look up was deeply stupid, and if the writing continues at this level, it may decline from 'okay better than expected' to 'as bad as I thought it would be'.

 

 

[Lord Varys]

16 minutes ago, Zorral said:

So, um, why are you doing it? 

I'm doing it in passing when discussing the show. I'm not wasting lots of lines on such issues, though. And the basis for that is just the basic outline of characters as we know that.

1 hour ago, DMC said:

The darkness is literally emphasized with them holding back Finrod's whispered advice until the end of the first episode.  Given the constraints, I don't think anyone could possibly please Tolkein devotees when it comes to Galadriel's depiction.

I don't know about that. I mean, she is the Man-Maiden and all that, so having her as a warrior or general doesn't go *completely* against anything that's established. But her character is lacking the gravitas and power of Galadriel. At that point she would either be the most senior of the Elves who remain in Middle-earth, or rank highly among them. And Gil-galad and Elrond both would treat her with reverence even if they wouldn't agree with her views.

And there seems to be inconsistent writing there - since she does stress her age and experience regarding the light of the Trees, etc. more than once ... yet this doesn't reflect on her status and rank. I mean, who does the casual viewer think Galadriel is? An obnoxious common elf? Mid-tier Elven nobility of lesser rank than 'Lord' Celebrimbor and the aloof (and quite nameless, I think) High King?

What could have been great would have been to have Celebrían in the story and give her Galadriel's active 'commander role' while Galadriel herself is more in a leadership position. That way one could also gotten the gestation of her relationship with Elrond - something that's off the table for this show, one imagines, since Galadriel has yet to marry.

Not arguing against her going out to do stuff, but this over-the-top ice expedition could have been something another character could have done. We could have had Celebrían come back from the expedition and the Galadriel trying to persuade the others to take it seriously, followed by her going to look for herself, etc. once folks were doubting the Sauron story.

I'm also kind of at a loss why they had to tie the Galadriel stuff to Valinor rather than go with a kind of brief overview of the FA shenanigans. Galadriel lost lots of people there, and quite a few of those things are mentioned in the appendices.

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Agreed. Though, I wonder how the Annatar story will work if Sauron is Halbrand. He should help Celembrimbor make the rings of power at some point. Perhaps that is the stuff of next season.

That is not a completely bad idea since the guy looked awfully clean and Númenórean for a guy from filthy men country ... but I don't think the Annatar plot should or would work very well if the guy looked like a common human. I mean, the way to portray this guy would be to have a stunningly beautiful fairy-like character, who truly is seductive as hell ... perhaps with a kind of very subtle weirdness. Basically a good model for him could be a toned down version of Stephen King's Leland Gaunt character ... although much more beautiful.

I guess Star Guy still is the best chance for Annatar, although that's really a very bad way to introduce him since there is just no reason why this guy would incarnate himself in such a silly manner ... nor does it make sense he needs some weirdo Hobbits to set himself straight again. Not to mention the fact that if Sauron ever encountered them Hobbits at such a pivotal moment in his career ... he would likely never forget about them.

The devil just looks like a moron if he has dementia or suffers from amnesia.

Not to mention that the real potential with Sauron there is that there is room for complexity there. There is talk that he may have thought he was doing the best for all peoples by taking charge. There is room for internal conflict in his character, a desire for control and power against the desire of doing good or at least basking in the admiration of others.

But their take on the guy clearly seems to be the guy is irredeemably evil from the start.

1 hour ago, farerb said:

I assume the reason they didn't include Celeborn in the show was because it would’ve made very little sense in their story for Galadriel to have a husband and still be traveling all over Middle Earth on her revenge quest.

They could have been married but living apart (say, because Celeborn is the supreme overseer of the dirty men in the south) or they could have been introduced as not yet knowing each other, making it clear we are going to get an Elven romance there. Celeborn would have had considerable potential as a Nando or even Avar Elf in the far east with little to no connection to the Eldar of the West.

I guess there is still potential for Celeborn to show up later ... but why they don't have him from the start I really don't understand.

Spoiler

What do we make of the little boy (Theo? A ridiculous name in this context!)? Is he the secret son of the Elf? I thought he could be since he apparently didn't know his father who supposedly ran away (could be just the story his mother told him). But he clearly is the Witch-king in the making, right? With all that talk about their king coming back and all. They could have meant Sauron but also some kind of sorcerer king worshipping the really big bad.

Must say I also don't like how they dumb things down - so Sauron gets some kind of evil mark to identify him/his presence more easily. Or the hammer-handed ways of Orcs living like ghouls underground. It creates a nice horror atmosphere but is pretty trite and silly at the same time, especially if it is going to turn out that vast armies of countless Orcs are gathering underground.

[Werthead]

The real question is how strong is RoP's meme game going to be? Early signs are promising.

Also, based on Twitter, it appears that an early candidate for the show's biggest thirst-trap is Gil-galad. Interesting.

[Ser Drewy]

1 hour ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Oh, I agree Elrond's a bit of a weird choice for a Khazadphile, but this Elrond has been established as good with words, and a diplomat. That gets him interacting with other people readily enough - preferable, given that we need him to be a focus-point character throughout all five seasons. Show Celebrimbor obsesses about the same things as Dwarves, but it's possible he's more the sort to lock himself away with his crafting, rather than reach out to others. Possibly. I'm again trying to rationalise.

The Prologue was clearly trying to keep things simple. Including Mad Uncle Feanor might be fun for us geeks, but it's taking up exposition time from what was already an exposition-heavy episode.

Release the Noldor cut! 

I may be satisfied on this aspect of the Celebrimbor front if we get a good "Celebrimbor reacts with wonder to Khazad-Dum" scene later on. Oddly enough, Celebrimbor being a secretive creator may make him even more dwarvish. 

1 hour ago, farerb said:

I assume the reason they didn't include Celeborn in the show was because it would’ve made very little sense in their story for Galadriel to have a husband and still be traveling all over Middle Earth on her revenge quest.

 I guess they might have them meet on her quest: the couple that slays orcs together, stays together!

 

1 hour ago, Mithras said:

Agreed. Though, I wonder how the Annatar story will work if Sauron is Halbrand. He should help Celembrimbor make the rings of power at some point. Perhaps that is the stuff of next season.

That's what I've been thinking.  I'm feeling Meteor Man is Gandalf (the firefly moment is a mislead, I'm guessing, and will be revealed to have been an accident. 

[Mithras]

I think the meteor man could also be Saruman. He came first after all.

[Ser Drewy]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Must say I also don't like how they dumb things down - so Sauron gets some kind of evil mark to identify him/his presence more easily. Or the hammer-handed ways of Orcs living like ghouls underground. It creates a nice horror atmosphere but is pretty trite and silly at the same time, especially if it is going to turn out that vast armies of countless Orcs are gathering underground.

Lol, didn't The Hobbit films do something goofy like that? Orcs drilling passages to Erebor with... the were-worms. I hope they're not looking to that particular trilogy for influences...

[DMC]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

At that point she would either be the most senior of the Elves who remain in Middle-earth, or rank highly among them. And Gil-galad and Elrond both would treat her with reverence even if they wouldn't agree with her views.

And there seems to be inconsistent writing there - since she does stress her age and experience regarding the light of the Trees, etc. more than once ... yet this doesn't reflect on her status and rank. I mean, who does the casual viewer think Galadriel is?

Yeah, as I mentioned before, totally agree and this bothered me too.  The straw that broke for me was when Elrond concluded their conversation with something like "you're my friend."  C'mon, maybe some acknowledgement that she's much more than that.  I also said out loud "she's also your mother-in-law," but apparently Celebrian isn't around yet.

27 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm also kind of at a loss why they had to tie the Galadriel stuff to Valinor rather than go with a kind of brief overview of the FA shenanigans. Galadriel lost lots of people there, and quite a few of those things are mentioned in the appendices.

I think it's natural to tie Galadriel to the Valinor stuff as she's the only main character that's been/was born there.  Having her narrate the prologue was also natural in relation to the films.