Rings of Power: A New Thread to Rule them All

[sifth]

Just now, ASOIAFrelatedusername said:

Apparent disregard for the source material and utterly uminaginative approach to its adaptation.

So they're not following what is in the books and just making up their own history for this world? Is that the gist of it?

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

So they're not following what is in the books and just making up their own history for this world? Is that the gist of it?

It appears so, yes.

[Werthead]

18 minutes ago, sifth said:

I have no idea what that word means, lol

The Akallabeth is the part of The Silmarillion dealing with the Second Age, which is the focus of the show.

17 minutes ago, sifth said:

So they're not following what is in the books and just making up their own history for this world? Is that the gist of it?

No, that would make it easier to criticise or ignore. They are following the broad strokes of the story and also the finer detail in some areas, but they are taking some creative liberties, ranging from the minor (Celebrimbor being older than he should be) to the very major (two distinct areas of history, separated by 1800 years, have been smashed into one timeline, with corresponding concerns on how the hell that will work).

This is a very similar situation to House of the Dragon. There is source material, but The Silmarillion and the corresponding parts of Unfinished Tales are effectively like Fire & Blood, a history book that takes a very broad view of a massive area of history. But all the ground-level dialogue has to be created from scratch and the 30-odd named characters in the history text aren't actually enough to tell the story, so they need to create a bunch of new characters as well. In theory this should be good because you can still hew to the broad strokes as outlined by the original author, but you can also give the scriptwriters creative licence to do their own things, within reason. The speculation is that HotD is doing that, but RoP has gone too far over the line in changing and creating things for the sake of it. It probably should be the other way around, since GRRM is around to authorise and give his blessing to larger changes and JRRT is not.

Some early reviews are starting to pop out and they seem to be making the same criticism: the show has not established the worldbuilding of this time period in sufficient detail to engage casual viewers, so hardcore Tolkien fans might be the only ones who can really understand what's going on...but hardcore purist Tolkien fans are also more likely to detest the show because of the changes they have made (and probably would have detested the show if it had adapted Akallabeth word-by-word and been signed off by Tolkien's ghost). So far the show seems to be going down well with Tolkien fans who are also fans of solid fantasy TV and are happy to overlook it not sticking to every minute detail of the books, but those are a fairly small audience.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

The Akallabeth is the part of The Silmarillion dealing with the Second Age, which is the focus of the show.

No, that would make it easier to criticise or ignore. They are following the broad strokes of the story and also the finer detail in some areas, but they are taking some creative liberties, ranging from the minor (Celebrimbor being older than he should be) to the very major (two distinct areas of history, separated by 1800 years, have been smashed into one timeline, with corresponding concerns on how the hell that will work).

This is a very similar situation to House of the Dragon. There is source material, but The Silmarillion and the corresponding parts of Unfinished Tales are effectively like Fire & Blood, a history book that takes a very broad view of a massive area of history. But all the ground-level dialogue has to be created from scratch and the 30-odd named characters in the history text aren't actually enough to tell the story, so they need to create  bunch of new characters as well. In theory this should be good because you can still hew to the broad strokes as outlined by the original author, but you can also give the scriptwriters creative licence to do their own things, within reason. The speculation is that HotD is doing that, but RoP has gone too far over the line in changing and creating things for the sake of it.

Well I imagine the fact that GRRM is actively involved with HotD and even hand picked the showrunner, helps ease peoples fears about that show. Granted I know very little about LotR and it's history. I read the Hobbit in 4th grade for summer reading and I think the first two LotR's books in high school. Never read the third one, despite owning it for over a decade. I saw all of the movies.

I might give the show a try, though after seeing the horrific job Amazon did with Wheel of Time, I'm not expecting to be blown away. Granted, I was never a huge Wheel of Time fan to begin with.

[Darryk]

Got to say it's all worth it for the comments under Amazon's YouTube videos. They're hilarious.

[Werthead]

An account of the prologue:

Spoiler

So basically, it opens with Galadriel narrating the beginning of Arda and the Two Trees. We see her as a little elf girl. She makes a swan boat, but the other elf children throw rocks at it and one hits it directly above and drowns it. She gets angry and almost beats up the kid but Finrod stops her and lectures her about sometimes having to give into darkness to defeat darkness, mainly. Then we get the show of him walking over the hill and seeing the Two Trees. Such a cinematic and breathtaking shot, and with the score… By Durin…

It then cuts to the SDCC footage that leaked of Morgoth’s shadow overtaking the trees (no Ungoliant), and then the scene of the elves drawing their swords in a circle swearing to defeat Morgoth. We see the map of Arda, and we follow it from Valinor to Middle-earth and cut to the battle. Fell beasts and eagles are fighting in the sky, one fell beast takes an eagle out completely and it comes crashing to the ground. No Balrogs during the battle. Finrod and the elves are fighting the orcs, and it’s such a gritty and epic fight. It then cuts to saying they defeated Morgoth, and says his lieutenant Sauron is out there and we see a shadowed Sauron on some sort of throne walk down surrounded by orcs with his same armor from the films. He’s wielding this awesome spear as a sort of ruling trident. We then cut to Galadriel over Finrod’s body saying how Sauron killed him after he went hunting for him and left that mark on him. She takes the dagger he’s holding, and we cut to Forodwaith and Galadriel and the elves climbing the ice, again such a beautiful and well shot scene. Galadriel is determined to find the hidden fortress that is rumored to be there. Thondir (the black haired elf) keeps trying to dissuade her from going on and that there’s nothing. They finally find the keep.

Oh definitely, by episode 2 it well establishes all the character goals and hints at their future. Like one of the elves telling Elrond he won’t be needed at the council since only lords are attending, and a lingering shot on Elrond looking at his writing, hinting at his becoming Lord of Rivendell. And also characters like Celebrimbor who in episode 2 has Feanor’s hammer (they mention how he crafted the Silmarils and Morgoth loved them so much it almost turned his heart), and Celebrimbor wants to do something like that. He has a plan to make a tower with the greatest forge ever crafted. And he needs a huge workforce since he wants it done fast. That’s why he needs Elrond, to get Durin and the dwarves to help. Guessing the forge will be made of mithril since the dwarf story of episode 2 ends with both Durin’s opening a box and a silver shine emitting from it, and we know it’s mithril.

 

[ASOIAFrelatedusername]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

An account of the prologue:

Does not sound very appealing to be honest. The First Age stuff seems to be rather superfluous, which I could live with if they actually adapted it properly, but it seems at the very least with Finrod they messed up. No bonus points from me here

[Zorral]

This looks to be very hard to follow for those who aren't in the weeds readers of all the appendices and Silmarillion, etc.

Just like Hot D is.

But one can't tell yet if either of these series can stand on their own w/o prior and deep knowledge. If they can't, they are failures. If they can, they are successes, right?

For example, for this non-booker the first season of WoT seemed that it did stand on its own feet.  The lurches of the final two eps I give a pass due to pandemic lockdown.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Werthead said:

An account of the prologue:

  Reveal hidden contents

So basically, it opens with Galadriel narrating the beginning of Arda and the Two Trees. We see her as a little elf girl. She makes a swan boat, but the other elf children throw rocks at it and one hits it directly above and drowns it. She gets angry and almost beats up the kid but Finrod stops her and lectures her about sometimes having to give into darkness to defeat darkness, mainly. Then we get the show of him walking over the hill and seeing the Two Trees. Such a cinematic and breathtaking shot, and with the score… By Durin…

It then cuts to the SDCC footage that leaked of Morgoth’s shadow overtaking the trees (no Ungoliant), and then the scene of the elves drawing their swords in a circle swearing to defeat Morgoth. We see the map of Arda, and we follow it from Valinor to Middle-earth and cut to the battle. Fell beasts and eagles are fighting in the sky, one fell beast takes an eagle out completely and it comes crashing to the ground. No Balrogs during the battle. Finrod and the elves are fighting the orcs, and it’s such a gritty and epic fight. It then cuts to saying they defeated Morgoth, and says his lieutenant Sauron is out there and we see a shadowed Sauron on some sort of throne walk down surrounded by orcs with his same armor from the films. He’s wielding this awesome spear as a sort of ruling trident. We then cut to Galadriel over Finrod’s body saying how Sauron killed him after he went hunting for him and left that mark on him. She takes the dagger he’s holding, and we cut to Forodwaith and Galadriel and the elves climbing the ice, again such a beautiful and well shot scene. Galadriel is determined to find the hidden fortress that is rumored to be there. Thondir (the black haired elf) keeps trying to dissuade her from going on and that there’s nothing. They finally find the keep.

Oh definitely, by episode 2 it well establishes all the character goals and hints at their future. Like one of the elves telling Elrond he won’t be needed at the council since only lords are attending, and a lingering shot on Elrond looking at his writing, hinting at his becoming Lord of Rivendell. And also characters like Celebrimbor who in episode 2 has Feanor’s hammer (they mention how he crafted the Silmarils and Morgoth loved them so much it almost turned his heart), and Celebrimbor wants to do something like that. He has a plan to make a tower with the greatest forge ever crafted. And he needs a huge workforce since he wants it done fast. That’s why he needs Elrond, to get Durin and the dwarves to help. Guessing the forge will be made of mithril since the dwarf story of episode 2 ends with both Durin’s opening a box and a silver shine emitting from it, and we know it’s mithril.

 

 

Where did you get this? Did manage to see a press screening? 

Spoiler

Are you saying that there nearly was an Elf kinslaying even before what Feanor and the Noldor did to the Teleri and it could have started because of a toy boat? 

 

[Werthead]

Just now, Corvinus85 said:

Where did you get this? Did manage to see a press screening? 

Reddit. There's been multiple early screenings around the world in the last few days (I tried to get one for London on Friday but missed out).

[Ser Drewy]

New clip with Meteor Man.

 

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

42 minutes ago, Ser Drewy said:

New clip with Meteor Man.

 

[Werthead]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Cheesy, but nothing worse than just about any #GimliComedyScene from the trilogy (shudders).

I think the bar I'm holding out for here is "better than the Hobbit movies and the shittier bits of the OG trilogy, probably nowhere near as good as Fellowship."

[SpaceChampion]

The Tolkien Untangled channel gives his opinion on how ROP should have been written (given the writers only have access to LOTRs appendixes for their 2nd age material), and it does sound much better than the apparent direction of the actual show.

 

[Calibandar]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

An account of the prologue:

  Hide contents

So basically, it opens with Galadriel narrating the beginning of Arda and the Two Trees. We see her as a little elf girl. She makes a swan boat, but the other elf children throw rocks at it and one hits it directly above and drowns it. She gets angry and almost beats up the kid but Finrod stops her and lectures her about sometimes having to give into darkness to defeat darkness, mainly. Then we get the show of him walking over the hill and seeing the Two Trees. Such a cinematic and breathtaking shot, and with the score… By Durin…

It then cuts to the SDCC footage that leaked of Morgoth’s shadow overtaking the trees (no Ungoliant), and then the scene of the elves drawing their swords in a circle swearing to defeat Morgoth. We see the map of Arda, and we follow it from Valinor to Middle-earth and cut to the battle. Fell beasts and eagles are fighting in the sky, one fell beast takes an eagle out completely and it comes crashing to the ground. No Balrogs during the battle. Finrod and the elves are fighting the orcs, and it’s such a gritty and epic fight. It then cuts to saying they defeated Morgoth, and says his lieutenant Sauron is out there and we see a shadowed Sauron on some sort of throne walk down surrounded by orcs with his same armor from the films. He’s wielding this awesome spear as a sort of ruling trident. We then cut to Galadriel over Finrod’s body saying how Sauron killed him after he went hunting for him and left that mark on him. She takes the dagger he’s holding, and we cut to Forodwaith and Galadriel and the elves climbing the ice, again such a beautiful and well shot scene. Galadriel is determined to find the hidden fortress that is rumored to be there. Thondir (the black haired elf) keeps trying to dissuade her from going on and that there’s nothing. They finally find the keep.

Oh definitely, by episode 2 it well establishes all the character goals and hints at their future. Like one of the elves telling Elrond he won’t be needed at the council since only lords are attending, and a lingering shot on Elrond looking at his writing, hinting at his becoming Lord of Rivendell. And also characters like Celebrimbor who in episode 2 has Feanor’s hammer (they mention how he crafted the Silmarils and Morgoth loved them so much it almost turned his heart), and Celebrimbor wants to do something like that. He has a plan to make a tower with the greatest forge ever crafted. And he needs a huge workforce since he wants it done fast. That’s why he needs Elrond, to get Durin and the dwarves to help. Guessing the forge will be made of mithril since the dwarf story of episode 2 ends with both Durin’s opening a box and a silver shine emitting from it, and we know it’s mithril.

 

 

A lot of that sounds perfectly fine, though if thats really it for the prologue, thats far shorter than I would have liked.

The one thing in that piece that I dont like is how it supposedly skips from an Elvish victory straight to a dead Finrod. If they are saying Sauron killed him, wouldnt that be the one thing you should show?

Whats also interesting is that the Balrog from the trailer is then not in the prologue...when the rumors at sdcc were that he was. So perhaps he does have a role to play in the series.

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

A lot of that sounds perfectly fine, though if thats really it for the prologue, thats far shorter than I would have liked.

The one thing in that piece that I dont like is how it supposedly skips from an Elvish victory straight to a dead Finrod. If they are saying Sauron killed him, wouldnt that be the one thing you should show?

Whats also interesting is that the Balrog from the trailer is then not in the prologue...when the rumors at sdcc were that he was. So perhaps he does have a role to play in the series.

They can't show it, it because that's adapting more of The Silmarillion directly then they probably have the rights to do. Several viewers noted that the brand of Sauron is on Finrod's corpse, indicating he still died in captivity, but they skip over the precise circumstances of his death.

Bit of the Hobbit trilogy's legal-skirting tactics going on (where Gandalf mentions the Blue Wizards but then claims he can't remember their names).

[SpaceChampion]

I presume Tolkien's Letters are covered under copyright law.  They're blocked from using anything in them, right?

[Werthead]

10 hours ago, SpaceChampion said:

I presume Tolkien's Letters are covered under copyright law.  They're blocked from using anything in them, right?

They don't have the rights to adapt Letters by J.R.R. Tolkien blow-by-blow, no. But again, they may have access to certain individual bits of information on a specific basis.

I'm wondering if Amazon and the Tolkien Estate have a massive stack of crazy contracts saying things like, "Amazon may use the sixth, ninth and twelfth paragraphs of Chapter 14 of The Silmarillion for the specific purpose of confirming that Sauron likes footrubs," to make this work.

[Myrddin]

Somewhere, there is a lucky Tolkien nerd making bank keeping all the various parties informed about what snippet of what text can be used in what medium.

A whole team of lucky rich nerds driving Ferraris with custom (approved) Tolkien themed plates.

[Darryk]

21 hours ago, Ser Drewy said:

New clip with Meteor Man.

 

Erm...wtf