US Politics - Breaking the Seal

[Week]

Upward mobility is at an all-time low. Inherited fortunes are of course going to be low because wealth is now concentrated in the generation of baby boomers. Their children, Gen X and Gen Y, have grown up with upward mobility because of their parents wealth but not necessarily inherited the wealth, just living off the teat. Still, the access and support of wealthy parents immediately accesses more money and opportunities - would that then be "self-made"? Is Kendall Jenner a self-made billionaire because she started the businesses that made her money?

 

[LongRider]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

I guess BDE really means Big Doll Energy, making the other BDE kind of hard if this model doesn't come anatomically correct. 

There is nothing correct about this model.   

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

8 minutes ago, Week said:

Is Kendall Jenner a self-made billionaire because she started the businesses that made her money?

The true American dream, becoming a billionaire of the backs of your mom pimping out your sister's sex tape (which by the way wasn't very good).

[Wade1865]

1 minute ago, Week said:

Upward mobility is at an all-time low. Inherited fortunes are of course going to be low because wealth is now concentrated in the generation of baby boomers. Their children, Gen X and Gen Y, have grown up with upward mobility because of their parents wealth but not necessarily inherited the wealth, just living off the teat. Still, the access and support of wealthy parents immediately accesses more money and opportunities - would that then be "self-made"? Is Kendall Jenner a self-made billionaire because she started the businesses that made her money?

 

Week -- appreciate the nuance, very informative! Agreed, in general, children of middle- and upper-class families certainly have an advantage over those who were born into the lower-class. These advantages are more likely to (but not always) manifest in healthier degrees of individual will and capability. Children (of any background) who go on to acquire their wealth, without a wealth inheritance, can legitimately be considered self-made. Children who were provided with wealth as inheritance, and used it (and their own earned incomes) to gain more wealth; acquired a combination of inherited, and self-made, wealth.

I'm not tracking Kendall's situation, though I remember she gave some cop a refreshingly ice-cold Pepsi and faced backlash from the masses. She should have cracked him on the head with it, instead. I assume she acquired her billion or more through a combination of inherited, and self-made, wealth; but, I really don't know. What are your thoughts?

[aceluby]

47 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

Zorral -- yes, I understand you argued generational wealth is a common occurrence in the world; but, it's an anecdotally-based exaggeration.

Today, there are approximately 56 million individual USD millionaires worldwide. Assuming each inherited all their wealth; and, assuming each heads a 2nd / 3rd generation family or older, that would represent 0.007 percent of the total world population. This translates into 6 millionaires per 800 non-millionaires.

If you consider the approximately 2700 billionaires (i.e., the truly wealthy), and apply the same assumptions of inherited wealth and generation, they represent an even smaller fraction at 0.00000033 percent. Obviously, these fractions do not represent a "quite normal," or common, occurrence throughout the world; but, an exceptional rarity in terms of generational wealth.

We agree on the consolidation of generational wealth and consequent inequality worldwide, but we disagree on frequency. Interestingly, my position cuts more deeply given the true degree of consolidation. And, if you take away the assumptions I granted in your favor, and account only for inherited in lieu of other forms of wealth production, the frequency becomes even smaller, and that much more unequal. In other words, world wealth inequality is worse than most people realize. Hence, I consider wealth inequality to be the greatest threat against the USG.

There is just so much bull shit in these numbers. Yeah, lots of people saved up a million bucks to retire. Having one million dollars in the bank isn’t that special or hard. Yeah, billionaires aren’t inheriting billions, but fuck if not most of them started on third base.

Just waving your hands and saying that lots of people have a million dollars doesn’t actually do anything for your point. What do the numbers look like for 10, 20, or 100 million dollars? Anything that assumes any kind of common sense with the reader?

[Martell Spy]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

A friend pointed out that if moderate Republicans, anti-fascist Republicans, and others toward the center leave and join the Democratic Party that weakens the Progressive hold on the Democratic Party… what effect would that have?

It would be a good problem to have. And I say that as someone that values tackling income inequality. We're in the situation of the VRA and voting rights under constant attack by the SC and staggering amounts of women cut off from abortion healthcare. Would these voters turn the party to the wrong side on these issues? Seems very unlikely,.

An example of new voters being a real problem would be the massive switch from Democratic party to Republican in the civil rights area. 

White House leaning toward canceling $10,000 in student loan debt for borrowers who make less than $125,000

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/22/politics/student-loan-white-house/index.html

Quote

 

(CNN)White House officials have been weighing -- and leaning toward -- the cancellation of up to $10,000 in student loan debt per borrower tied to an income threshold, CNN has learned.

According to multiple sources familiar with the discussions, the plan is designed to offer the forgiveness to individuals who earn less than $125,000 per year.
In addition to that baseline of student loan debt forgiveness for individuals who fall under a certain income level, administration officials have also recently discussed the possibility of additional forgiveness for specific subsets of the population, according to sources familiar with internal discussions in the administration.
The announcement could come as early as Wednesday, but it is not clear that a final decision on the details of the announcement -- as well as the timing -- has been made, and there could always be eleventh hour changes. The White House is also expected to address in the coming days whether to extend again the current pause on federal student loan payments, which is set to expire on August 31.

 

 

[Week]

7 minutes ago, aceluby said:

There is just so much bull shit in these numbers. Yeah, lots of people saved up a million bucks to retire. Having one million dollars in the bank isn’t that special or hard. Yeah, billionaires aren’t inheriting billions, but fuck if not most of them started on third base.

Just waving your hands and saying that lots of people have a million dollars doesn’t actually do anything for your point. What do the numbers look like for 10, 20, or 100 million dollars? Anything that assumes any kind of common sense with the reader?

Income inequality is a destabilizing force but most millionaires are self-made therefore opinion or policy is .

Seems to be the jist of it.

[LongRider]

Link to gifted article. 
 

 

[Zorral]

Starting out in life with even $5,000 free and clear from inheritance is enormously different from starting out in life with zero -- like hey baby, I did.  Like most people do.  But most of the people I know started out life with did have legacy college admission, and a whole lot more inheritance/trust. Just think for a single instane: why did Laurie Anderson, for instance, do so well out of the box with her music career in the downtown music scene? She inherited trust fund from I forget which big paint manufacture out of the 19th century, which allowed her a fantastic education she didn't have to take out loans for, hiring the most expert other musicians and artists, owning property in NYC, etc.

This stuff makes an enormous difference, particularly if one is a member of the groups that were never ever allowed to accumulate generational property at all -- much less wealth -- like African Americans.  Their entire families were sold off to fuel others White generational wealth.

[Wade1865]

1 minute ago, aceluby said:

There is just so much bull shit in these numbers. Yeah, lots of people saved up a million bucks to retire. Having one million dollars in the bank isn’t that special or hard. Yeah, billionaires aren’t inheriting billions, but fuck if not most of them started on third base.

Just waving your hands and saying that lots of people have a million dollars doesn’t actually do anything for your point. What do the numbers look like for 10, 20, or 100 million dollars? Anything that assumes any kind of common sense with the reader?

aceluby -- no, the numbers are legitimate. Moreover, including 1 million USD as the lowest common denominator was offered in support of Zorral's argument; even then, however, it still indicates an exceptional rarity at 0.007 percent of the total world population.

To your point, I agree that 1 million USD is not what I'd consider a representation of the wealthy, much less the wealthy elite. If we were to limit the wealthy to 5, 10, 15, or 20 million USD or more; it would only further emphasize the rarity of generational wealth throughout the world today.

The Forbes 400 reports 70% of billionaires are self-made, up from less than half since the 1980s, pointing out a higher frequency of the self-made. And research done by Forbes reflects the 74% of billionaires worldwide, when reporting as self-made. Again, these numbers reflect the extreme rarity of generational wealth among billionaires.

[Wade1865]

24 minutes ago, Week said:

Income inequality is a destabilizing force but most millionaires are self-made therefore opinion or policy is .

Seems to be the jist of it.

Week -- close, but not quite. The discussion confirmed the rarity of generational wealth world-wide, regardless of origin (i.e. self-made, inherited, combination), as well as its increasing concentration. In other words, current wealth inequality is alarmingly high at this point, throughout the world -- guillotine-level kind of inequality. Most people know its bad, but I argue it's much, much worse.

[Week]

@Wade1865 Do you have any thoughts/ideas for a course of action for government -- to ameliorate wealth inequality? 

[aceluby]

30 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

aceluby -- no, the numbers are legitimate. Moreover, including 1 million USD as the lowest common denominator was offered in support of Zorral's argument; even then, however, it still indicates an exceptional rarity at 0.007 percent of the total world population.

To your point, I agree that 1 million USD is not what I'd consider a representation of the wealthy, much less the wealthy elite. If we were to limit the wealthy to 5, 10, 15, or 20 million USD or more; it would only further emphasize the rarity of generational wealth throughout the world today.

The Forbes 400 reports 70% of billionaires are self-made, up from less than half since the 1980s, pointing out a higher frequency of the self-made. And research done by Forbes reflects the 74% of billionaires worldwide, when reporting as self-made. Again, these numbers reflect the extreme rarity of generational wealth among billionaires.

JFC, billionaires self reported they were self-made? Of course they do. 

You haven’t provided anything to actually support your point. Just a bunch of hand waving about how when asked people believe that they never received any kind of help ever - and of course the people who blindly believe them.

[Wade1865]

Just now, Week said:

@Wade1865 Do you have any thoughts/ideas for a course of action for government? 

Week -- yes, and great question. I'll limit my answer to the next US Presidential election unless you have specific questions. At a personal level, my thoughts are to stay out of it, remain apolitical, and thus maintain my sense of peace.

My thoughts on the US as a whole is that the USG should stop all attacks (J6, taxes, ad hominem, classified documents, et al.) and allow the God Emperor to run against Uncle Joe unhindered. Ultimately, Uncle Joe will secure a decisive win as I anticipate the left wing and enough Republicans will vote either for Uncle Joe or against the God Emperor, resulting in a transparent and legitimate victory, and subsequent easing of the increasing volatility. In my view, this is the best course of action to avoid civil strife while also restoring the traditional GOP in time for the 2028 election.

On the other hand, I know the attacks won't stop and we will see volatility manifested, subject to several decision points in the next year or so. Thus, I will observe with great interest! and excitement! as the various mobs fight it out on the streets.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 minutes ago, Wade1865 said:

resulting in a transparent and legitimate victory, and subsequent easing of the increasing volatility.

This is idiotic. 

[Wade1865]

2 minutes ago, aceluby said:

JFC, billionaires self reported they were self-made? Of course they do. 

You haven’t provided anything to actually support your point. Just a bunch of hand waving about how when asked people believe that they never received any kind of help ever - and of course the people who blindly believe them.

aceluby -- yes, self-reported is adequate, especially when their claims are reflected in the Forbes 400 unless you have a more legitimate one. On the rarity of generational wealth, it's in the numbers, though it should be self-evident. If you can't undertand how rare such families are, then I'll leave you to your beliefs unless you can provide a counter beyond what you've already offered. Appreciate your thoughts, though!

[Wade1865]

2 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

This is idiotic. 

Tywin et al. -- hahaha, I acknowledge your thoughts, thank you.

[The Anti-Targ]

2 hours ago, Week said:

Upward mobility is at an all-time low. Inherited fortunes are of course going to be low because wealth is now concentrated in the generation of baby boomers. Their children, Gen X and Gen Y, have grown up with upward mobility because of their parents wealth but not necessarily inherited the wealth, just living off the teat. Still, the access and support of wealthy parents immediately accesses more money and opportunities - would that then be "self-made"? Is Kendall Jenner a self-made billionaire because she started the businesses that made her money?

 

One of the biggest lies anyone has ever told, or been told. But like a lot of big lies it is remarkably persistent, because almost everyone believes in the myth of being self-made, and the establishment likes to perpetuate the myth by giving awards to people for being self-made. Hackles get raise whenever anyone uses the term un-ironically. Almost as bad as writing would of, could of, should of.

[Wade1865]

30 minutes ago, Week said:

@Wade1865 Do you have any thoughts/ideas for a course of action for government -- to ameliorate wealth inequality? 

Week -- great question. I hate to admit it, but the USG has reached a point of no return and will be compelled to come to terms against some degree of economic-based civil strife. The USG will try to ease it through some form of wealth redistribution at the expense of the middle- and middle-upper classes, but it won't stop the continued decline; the upper-class will continue to protect their wealth.

I just don't see a genuine solution from the USG, and cannot fathom how the Millennial and Gen Z generations can recover and attain a Boomer quality of life. Someone mentioned the transfer of wealth from the Boomers to their children, but how much of that will not be destroyed by way of growing health costs, increasing taxes, food and income insecurity, inflation, et al.? And of that transfer, how much of it will further consolidate into the families of the already wealthy?

Ultimately, the USG won't be able to resolve inequality; but the people can, when they've had enough.

[Wade1865]

13 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

One of the biggest lies anyone has ever told, or been told. But like a lot of big lies it is remarkably persistent, because almost everyone believes in the myth of being self-made, and the establishment likes to perpetuate the myth by giving awards to people for being self-made. Hackles get raise whenever anyone uses the term un-ironically. Almost as bad as writing would of, could of, should of.

The Anti-Targ -- the self-made man is no lie; he exists as the politician, the executive, the owner, the celebrity, the athlete, the general. The myth is that the masses believe they can achieve wealth, or join the wealthy elite, when the vast majority lack the will and capability. The meritocracy is exclusive.