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[Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion


Ran
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Book spoiler discussion of the show goes here, for those who want to discuss the episode in relation to the books, and with reference to spoilers from them.

This topic should open automatically around the start of airing.

Edited by Ran
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* Opening on the Great Council is good for establishing the politics at stake.

* Gold dragons are awesome. I'm glad Rhaenyra has her.

* The Gold Cloaks purge of the baddies will be very popular, I'm sure.

* Ser Otto Hightower is a scumbag through and through but you sense he's competent like Tywin.

* The feminism is strong in the show if a bit shallow. I think that should go over well with the female audiences.

* Matt Smith being fanservice for the straight women (and some men) is a sign of more even balance I believe.

* The tournament was well done but so much larger, you have to wonder what happened in Robert's time.

* I found the cesarion scene actually more traumatizing than most of Game of Thrones' violence.

* The funeral really hit me in the feels.

* I like Corys simultaneously being every bit as ambitious as Hightower but not as scummy about it.

* Hightower pimping out his daughter is genuinely disgusting. Perfect for a villain.

* The giant toy model of Valyria is the Medieval version of a train set to show a man is an enormous child.

* I also believe that Daemon gave a sincere toast.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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Overall, I thought it was a very good episode. No, it’s not “the best premiere I’ve ever seen” like some reviewers said it would be (that honor still goes to Friday Night Lights), but it was certainly well done. Now for some more specific thoughts:

I was surprised by just how much this didn’t feel like Game of Thrones. Not in the sense that the showrunners had a different approach than D&D (although they obviously did), but it just felt like a show from a different universe. I’d say it felt more like a dark fairytale than a historical (fantasy) drama. This didn’t really detract from my enjoyment, but I can see how some people who were hoping that this would bring GOT back will be disappointed.

Acting was great overall, although I don’t know if Matt Smith was worthy of quite as much praise as he received. I can see why critics were split on their perception of Daemon. I also wish the “heir for a day” part had played out the way the leaks suggested; I’m guessing the scene was filmed, but that it was cut in editing.

Corlys had a certain instant likability to him, but he was so clearly at odds with everyone that it’s a wonder why he’s even there. Despite not backing Rhaenyra's claim, he almost seemed impressed at the end that Viserys actually went through with it.

They managed to not make me hate Viserys despite what he did to his wife, which was quite the accomplishment.

The dialogue was perfectly serviceable, but not memorable.

This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I found the violence more gratuitous than anything we saw on GOT. From what I recall of the books, most tourneys didn’t include fights to the death—pretty much everyone yielded, and the only deaths came from accidents. (And how was Daemon not disqualified for targeting that horse? Aerion was in The Hedge Knight). Something tells me that all the bros that love the violence on these shows didn’t enjoy having to watch a C-section.

It wasn’t until Daemon said “c*nt” that I realized there was relatively little swearing.

There was one area where HOTD and GOT were alike: somehow, they managed to make the sex scenes feel extremely un-sexy.

The dragons looked goofy, but I don’t blame the graphic designers for that. I don’t think there’s a way not to make dragons look goofy.

I can see what David Lightbringer was getting at when he said Rhaenyra has an edge. She’s likable, but there is a certain brattiness about her as well. Her running off to have adventures feels less sweet than when Arya was doing the same thing back in S1.

On that note, I’m very glad Rhaenyra and Alicent aren’t Arya and Sansa 2.0. The two girls had good chemistry. Alicent has a warmth to her that she doesn’t have in the books. I liked the scene where she talked about her mother with Viserys.

The reviews were right: I don’t think there was a single moment of levity. That’s okay for one episode, but I could see it growing tiresome after a while. As it was, the episode felt extremely long.

Adding the “song of ice and fire” prophecy was such a bad idea. It’s even worse now that Viserys threw in the part about how there must be a Targaryen on the throne when the darkness comes. Unless they’re going to try to retcon Cersei as Aerys’ secret bastard, it wouldn’t even be right in an ironic way. And then there’s the “long winter” part.

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4.5/5

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON is the prequel series to HBO's fantastic (for the first few seasons or so) GAME OF THRONES. It's a pretty distant prequel as well, taking place two hundred years before Daenerys Targaryen attempts her epic quest to assume the Iron Throne, which absolutely ended wonderfully and everyone lived happily thereafter. As you can see from my intro, there's some bitterness and ill-feeling leftover from Season Eight's finale which many fans share. Can House of the Dragon recapture the magic? Do we want it to?

Yes. With caveats, yes.

Yes, very much so.

The premise is King Viserys Targaryen (Paddy Considine) is having a really crappy two day as he loses both his wife and his heir, a boy, a day later. Viserys is a different kind of monarch in Westeros in that he is neither a religious fanatic, lunatic sadist, or utter incompetent. He's a bit conflict adverse but that's hardly the worst quality to have in a setting where conflict is resolved with mass murder. The Targaryens have been rulers in Westeros for a century and they're at the height of their power due to having a dozen or so dragons.

The issue is succession with Viserys having no sons, one daughter, one brother, and a cousin who was already passed over to make him king. Westeros would very much like to have a man as their king, so that would indicate Daemon (Matt Smith) should be the king but he has the problem of being a relentlessly debonair rogue that everyone is afraid will have them killed when he ascends. Probably because he would. To be fair, they're all a bunch of scheming bastards and he has a Han Solo meets meets the Tudors ruthlessness.

Ser Otto Hightower (Rhys Ifans) wants to skewer Daemon's chances by unexpectedly supporting Viserys' daughter, Rhaenyra (Milly Alcock), as the heir instead. This will end up shooting him in the foot as his daughter, Lady Alicent Hightower (Emily Carey), already is in position to comfort the grieving Viserys that is old enough to be her father verging on grandfather. Really, Otto all but tries to pimp her out in his grief over his widowdom and she's suitably disgusted. It's also doubly awkward because Rhaenyra and Alicent are besties, bonding over being the smartest people in the Red Keep but kept from power by their sex. Oh and the fact they're teenagers.

A lot of this is set up for later episodes in the series and if you aren't interested in a show about who will sit on the Iron Throne, backstab one another, betray their loves, or curiously ignore all the incest going on then why are you watching Game of Thrones? I mean, House of the Dragon? The big thing this series has both for and against it is that it is a return to the pageantry, beauty, crassness crossed with high society, violence, and sex of GOT. It feels a trifle more aware of its female audience this time with Matt Smith there to be balance out the fanservice but it's very much a show that feels like, "Can we just pretend we never had that messy breakup?" The answer would be no except...dragons.

Damn you, HBO, but you got me with the dragons. It's like that moment in Peter S. Beagal's The Last Unicorn where Christopher Lee talks about seeing unicorns for the first time: "Each time I see the unicorns dragons, my unicorns dragons, it is like that morning in the woods and I am truly young, in spite of myself." I mean, young again in this case refers to 2019 but that feels like a very long time ago with the Pandemic and other things that make me long for Westeros. Watching George R.R. Martin's work on screen again is like going on a date with your ex after you've both grown and remembering the good times while forgetting the bad. But it's the dragons that got me here and dragons that will keep me to stay.

I could nitpick about details: Rhaenyra is being set up as the plucky young heroine who should be queen because why shouldn't a girl be queen without ever questioning the fact that a hereditary despotism's problems are not what sex the ruler is. Matt Smith is doing triple duty as the comic relief, romantic lead, and a handsome rogue with some truly dark qualities. Some Tyrion-esque humor would have been appreciated but the season is young.

There's some very uncomfortable parts in this episode with the caesarion scene being genuinely traumatizing. The contrast between it and the violence of the tournament is powerful stuff, though, and underscores that this is a patriarchal society that is no woman's land. It may be a little too heavy on this theme but the central conflict being between Alicent and Rhaenyra is something that I think will provide plenty of fodder for future episodes.

In conclusion, you've probably made up your mind on whether or not to see House of the Dragon. However, I give this a stamp of approval. It could end up disappointing me and we break up the same way we did before for the same reasons. However, so far, things are very good and I am way more excited for this than any program this year.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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There were some horribly cringe scenes that really put me off. First the Gold Cloaks massacring criminals in King's Landing. I get that it was supposed to be a Daemon's "show" but it felt too random and I blame the editing. Second was the tourney. So they are randomly killing knights and nobles in jousting now? Those scenes were so unnecessarily violent. I liked Rhaenys citing Catelyn's thoughts about the green knights of the summer, but again, too violent that the whole thing came off stupid. There are a lot of jousts and melees in ASOIAF but never with this level of gore. But I guess the showrunners felt the episode needed action, since it's a pilot and they need the casual viewer to stick around.

Other than those, the episode was pleasant. Not great, but has potential. The story flowed nicely and the pace was on point. Some changes from the source material were an improvement, like the Alicent and Rhaenyra friendship. Others I still find questionable, such as the blatant blackwashing of house Velaryon. But I guess there's no point in complaining about that anymore, it's done.

 

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14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

They managed to not make me hate Viserys despite what he did to his wife, which was quite the accomplishment.

...

I found the violence more gratuitous than anything we saw on GOT.

Well, Viserys was given the choice of losing his wife or losing his wife and child, so I don't think he did anything wrong, just had a really hard choice to make. (well, he could have actually told her instead of letting her figure it out in terror, so maybe point conceded)

Also, I think the violence of the tourney worked really well juxtaposed to the birthing bed. Highlighted the differences between the battles both sexes have to face as well as showing the needless violence of the tourney for entertainment.

Edited by Gertrude
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I really enjoyed that. I mean I'm obviously biased being such a huge fan of the books and the history. But damn that was a lot more fun to watch than I thought it would be.

I watched I think the first trailer and was thinking Matt Smith does not seem like he can pull this off, this character isn't how I imagined them, etc. It's so weird to watch the show and have all these people overwrite my mental images of these character.  I only read A Song of Ice and Fire after loving season one of GoT so this is new to me.

I was not prepared to see a woman forcibly given a cesarean. Fuck. Also in the books the tourneys aren't so deadly, right? They use blunted weapons? I understand people still die but I didn't picture it being that much of a bloodbath.

The "secret purpose" of the Targaryens was a nice touch I thought. I mean he was wrong, it turns out. I doubt that's from the books but I like that it explains Aegon a bit more. Makes more since as a prince that was promised thing but hey we can't change what's been established cannon wise. I personally can't wait to meet Maegor III.

 

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Matt Smith blew this out of the water. Daemon has edge but he seems to want to be decent all the same.  

The intensity of the violence at the tournament didn’t make sense.  Why wasn’t Daemon DQ’d for aiming his lance at the horses legs in his first tilt?

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I thought it was a pretty great episode of TV.

Of course what caught my attention the most was the song of ice and fire reveal, I never thought it would happen outside the books, let alone in this spin off, but I guess we had to know it someway since the books are never ending. I'm not complaining though, it felt pretty epic.

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It's weird to be back in Westeros, specially for me, since I dropped the show by the end of s05, seeing the way it was going.

Anyway, this is...fine, I guess. The problem is that there doesn't seem to have any characters that are instantly relatable or likeable, like Ned, Tyrion and Arya (speaking as someone that saw s01 without reading the books), and while the books can be heavy handed at times, this was A LOT. 

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4 minutes ago, miyuki said:

There were some horribly cringe scenes that really put me off. First the Gold Cloaks massacring criminals in King's Landing. I get that it was supposed to be a Daemon's "show" but it felt too random and I blame the editing.

Yeah actually, there was so much good stuff after this that I'd forgotten about it. But that seemed so arbitrary. I assume they were raiding Flea Bottom but they acted like they were storming into a penal colony.

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The first episode, it is already so different from the original novel, Mind you in the book, the Queen Aemma was NEVER be cut open in her child birth, and as I said King Viserys NEVER change his decision that Rhaenyra would be his heir, he did not change his mind even after he had his own son. The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story. I guess it would be another of those as strong woman so mistreated by the male dominated society BS Looks like in nowadays, we could not enjoy a good story without these modern day political correctness.

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I'd give this 4.25 out 5 stars. One thing I will say (and this is a real small detail) is that I don't think tourneys are supposed to be this bloody. Also (and this is not a small detail), seems like Aegon misread his dreams, or missed the fact that the White Walkers would be stopped by a sassy teenage ninja.

Edited by zajaz
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1 minute ago, miyuki said:

So they are randomly killing knights and nobles in jousting now?

Incredibly stupid. Accidents can happen all the time, but that was absolutely insane. There's a code for knights and you usually face consequences when you kill random opponents in a tourney. Good old HBO, action first, logic second.

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1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Incredibly stupid. Accidents can happen all the time, but that was absolutely insane. There's a code for knights and you usually face consequences when you kill random opponents in a tourney. Good old HBO, action first, logic second.

Yes, no one would attack your opponent's horse in a tourney in public.  

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Really liked the episode but I agree about the random violence (maybe a melee that was badly edited in?) at the tournament. For me the pageantry of tourneys and the chivalric rituals of the knights were always suppose to be the sanitized version of what Knighthood in Westeros represented. Knights in tournaments are suppose to act a certain way and pretend to uphold the vows they've sworn - it's what really shows the hypocrisy when contrasted with their behavior in war or when not in the spotlight.

While there would be the occasional death from a bad fall or an unlucky hit, legitimate full on "oh shit" level violence was something that stuck out. Like when Cole wrecks Breakbones or kills Ser Joffrey Lonmouth - the brutality present in those incidents will lose some of their shock value both in the show and to the viewing audience.    

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4 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The first episode, it is already so different from the original novel, Mind you in the book, the Queen Aemma was NEVER be cut open in her child birth, and as I said King Viserys NEVER change his decision that Rhaenyra would be his heir, he did not change his mind even after he had his own son. The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story. I guess it would be another of those as strong woman so mistreated by the male dominated society BS Looks like in nowadays, we could not enjoy a good story without these modern day political correctness.

In the show's defense, Fire and Blood does not contain the literal truth. It is written ambiguously with often many contradicting versions of the same event. So the show will naturally have a lot of freedom when it decides how it depicts any event.  

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