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[Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion


Ran
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11 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Well, Viserys was given the choice of losing his wife or losing his wife and child, so I don't think he did anything wrong, just had a really hard choice to make. (well, he could have actually told her instead of letting her figure it out in terror, so maybe point conceded)

Also, I think the violence of the tourney worked really well juxtaposed to the birthing bed. Highlighted the differences between the battles both sexes have to face as well as showing the needless violence of the tourney for entertainment.

1. I didn't immediately grock that it wasn't a choice of mom versus baby but just "dead baby and mom" until the aftershow. I thought he had to choose and chose the baby.

2. Tournaments do occasionally have fatalities as we saw with The Hedge Knight. I get the impression this is an unusually violent one as everyone is here to win at all costs.

3. I'm not gonna lie, the involuntary baby cutting was more traumatizing to me than any scene in GOT.

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2 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Anyway, this is...fine, I guess. The problem is that there doesn't seem to have any characters that are instantly relatable or likeable, like Ned, Tyrion and Arya (speaking as someone that saw s01 without reading the books), and while the books can be heavy handed at times, this was A LOT. 

Idk, for me none of the characters were super likeable from the jump. Jon, Bran and Arya were the hook initially, not surprising they survived all the way through.

Rhaenyra and Daemon were pretty fun introductions and can easily carry the early part of the series.

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5 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

It's weird to be back in Westeros, specially for me, since I dropped the show by the end of s05, seeing the way it was going.

Anyway, this is...fine, I guess. The problem is that there doesn't seem to have any characters that are instantly relatable or likeable, like Ned, Tyrion and Arya (speaking as someone that saw s01 without reading the books), and while the books can be heavy handed at times, this was A LOT. 

I'm assuming you read the novels after season one like I did? Did you ever read The World of Ice and Fire or the two relevent novellas culled from that? I kept thinking they were doing a great job establishing who everyone was but that was with the benefit of already having some idea. I'm really curious what people who went in fresh thought.

7 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story.

This is just objectively false.  Did you read the story? The idea that a male heir comes before a daughter is the basis of the entire conflict. One dude is beheaded insisting that a woman cannot rule.

Even if you didn't read the stuff this is based on, it comes up in the main novels as well. Back in the day I would have used that website that searches all the books to give you quotes, but I don't even remember the URL.

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9 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The first episode, it is already so different from the original novel, Mind you in the book, the Queen Aemma was NEVER be cut open in her child birth, and as I said King Viserys NEVER change his decision that Rhaenyra would be his heir, he did not change his mind even after he had his own son. The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story. I guess it would be another of those as strong woman so mistreated by the male dominated society BS Looks like in nowadays, we could not enjoy a good story without these modern day political correctness.

I feel there's a lot wrong up here but:

1. It was always a feminist interpretation of the war because the original story is "The Princess and the Queen"

2. Viserys DID change his decision because Daemon was his heir until the "Heir for the Day" remark.

3. Martin made it clear it was 40-1 with Viserys to Rhaenys so them not accepting a female heir is true to the text. Also, because, well that's the sole reason to support Aegon since everyone was 100% aware of the King's preferences up to and including the Smallfolk.

4. If you look for Game of Thrones to NOT criticize Medieval handling of women, I suggest you don't read A Song of Ice and Fire. It's all over those books.

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4 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. I didn't immediately grock that it wasn't a choice of mom versus baby but just "dead baby and mom" until the aftershow. I thought he had to choose and chose the baby.

I'm pretty sure the maester didn't give him the choice of saving his wife. It was save the baby or "leave it to the gods"

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2 minutes ago, miyuki said:

The one good thing about the tourney was the heraldry. Bright banners and surcoats with sigils, I loved that. Even the early seasons of Game of Thrones never had knights wear sigils. 

I loved how that was one of the things GRRM wanted them to fix from GOT. The books do such a great job creating colorful and interesting outfits, armors, and banners and GOT just went bland on a lot of them. 

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12 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The first episode, it is already so different from the original novel, Mind you in the book, the Queen Aemma was NEVER be cut open in her child birth, and as I said King Viserys NEVER change his decision that Rhaenyra would be his heir, he did not change his mind even after he had his own son. The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story. I guess it would be another of those as strong woman so mistreated by the male dominated society BS Looks like in nowadays, we could not enjoy a good story without these modern day political correctness.

You’re consistent in what you complain about.  Who is the Executive producer on this show and co-writer of the episode?

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3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

1. I didn't immediately grock that it wasn't a choice of mom versus baby but just "dead baby and mom" until the aftershow. I thought he had to choose and chose the baby.

2. Tournaments do occasionally have fatalities as we saw with The Hedge Knight. I get the impression this is an unusually violent one as everyone is here to win at all costs.

3. I'm not gonna lie, the involuntary baby cutting was more traumatizing to me than any scene in GOT.

Yeah, the tourney was violent by any standard. Like I said though, it does a lot of work through symbolism. It showcases Daemon's violence as well as showing the stupidity of it all as we watch Aemma in her own fight to the death. And yes, that was very traumatizing, and I am glad they went there. Women face death just like the men, they just don't get to wear cool armor and have cheering crowds adore them.

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one thing I am now sure of: discussing it beforehand too much wasn't a good idea! here are my thoughts starting with positive ones:

  • It had a fairytale/fantasy feel that GoT never had(to be fair not when it wasn't around Dany) .. GoT felt more realistic while this felt more from a foreign universe . which I actually liked.
  • music , just like with GoT , was pretty good .
  • I liked the dragons quite a bit . it also seems that they're going to make Dragonkeepers a bigger deal in this than in the books which I appreciate . I mean , no one in their right mind would choose dragonkeeping as a profession!!
  • the small council scene was good. it was evident that Viserys is a weak king . and serious Corlys was what I expected.
  • I liked most of the tourney but what was that stupid fight ?! did that happen like that in middle ages ? because it did not in the books ... and the Rhaenys/Corlys's comments on the fight felt a bit off . 
  • I'm undecided about the city watch scenes . I mean it was like Daemon decided he is going to wipe the city out of crime in one single night. wouldn't it be better if it was like this time Daemon had over done it?
  • can somebody tell me why sex scenes in GoT universe are usually in the same position and are not really sexy? then again Daemon didn't finish ... so i guess it was not meant to be sexy?!
  • I still think Laena and Laenor should have been young adults like Rhaenyra.
  • worst part? the prophecy was handled in a cheesy and unsatisfying way . in fact this song of ice and fire was as much interesting as song of ice and fire in the end of GoT's season8's finale
  • finally I think it was alright . it wasn't amazing , but it was promising.
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5 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

You’re consistent in what you complain about.  Who is the Executive producer on this show and co-writer of the episode?

Ryan Condal's the sole writer of the episode, according to the credits. Condal and Sapochnik are the show runners. GRRM has as much or more influence than he did with GoT in the early days, but he's noted in interviews that sometimes the show runners convince him to do something different from what he would have chosen... and sometimes he just acquiesces if they are adamant even if he's unconvinced.

All that said, I think the broad themes are going to be things George is on board with, whatever anyone else may think.

Re: tourney violence,

That's one place where we felt the show went over the top. I admit, sometimes the show goes a bit more lurid than I would have liked, and this is one of those. I think the intention here is that thing they keep saying in interviews: this is a decadent era, its known generations of peace and people are starting to get kind of crazy with it. Consider the pornography in the bed chambers (and realize that you'll notice it in the hallways, too...)

Edited by Ran
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I really, really liked it, which is a relief to say. This first episode instills a lot of confidence that this will be a truly good series. It was faithful to Martin's work, and the writers expanded on it in the manner of writers who really care for and understand his work, and are also able to effectively translate it.

If the show continues in this vein, considering the absolutely spectacular material ahead, this can be incredible. Which is astonishing to say.

The only thing better would be if Rings of Power - against all expectations - managed to be a quality show itself. 

That would make for a sensational next few weeks.

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I think the tourney's violence can also be sorta explained by Rhaenys remarks that neither these kids or their fathers had seen a war. This is their only outlet so they go nuts, and none of them have seen their friends slaughtered en mass.

18 minutes ago, marsyao said:

The BS about the Lords would not accept a woman be their heir is just another attempt by HBO to bring modern feminism into the story. I guess it would be another of those as strong woman so mistreated by the male dominated society BS Looks like in nowadays, we could not enjoy a good story without these modern day political correctness.

I'm sorry, it's bad form to quote the same bit of text twice. But I just realized that this may be this show's version of "OMG the liberal bastards made Renly and Loras gay!"

 

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2 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

can somebody tell me why sex scenes in GoT universe are usually in the same position and are not really sexy? then again Daemon didn't finish ... so i guess it was not meant to be sexy?!

I'm guessing doggie style is because you can see both actor's faces, so is just easier. The sex scenes are not meant to be sexy.

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2 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Yeah, the tourney was violent by any standard. Like I said though, it does a lot of work through symbolism. It showcases Daemon's violence as well as showing the stupidity of it all as we watch Aemma in her own fight to the death. And yes, that was very traumatizing, and I am glad they went there. Women face death just like the men, they just don't get to wear cool armor and have cheering crowds adore them.

Yeah, it's also deliberate as it's clear Rhaenys and Alicent are kind of really horrified by what's going down as opposed to being really into it.

And Daemon's behavior at the tournament was cheating and awful.

It's just Criston Cole showed him that he wasn't going to be able to get away with it (which he would have due to being Prince).

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Just now, Gertrude said:

I'm guessing doggie style is because you can see both actor's faces, so is just easier. The sex scenes are not meant to be sexy.

The strategically placed Godiva hair for Sonoya MIzuno was rather noticeable. You could have shown this on AMC.

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2 minutes ago, RumHam said:

 

I'm sorry, it's bad form to quote the same bit of text twice. But I just realized that this may be this show's version of "OMG the liberal bastards made Renly and Loras gay!"

 

To be faire REnly and Loras were gay lovers in the book, but they were no fools like HBO portrait them

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