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[Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion


Ran
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Just now, marsyao said:

Yes, whether you like it or not, this was a fact

It's true that in the books that is indeed a fact, confirmed by the writers when they explained why they changed the race of the Velaryons.

But the show universe has its own canon. I wouldn't have picked changing Valyrians with all their blood purity incestonmania, and with multiple ties between the Targaryens and Velaryons, but it was a choice they made. I will say that they make some further adjustments to the history of the Velaryons and their relationship to the Targaryens to try and make it more plausible. Jaehaerys's casting is a hint.

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A solid start with solid acting all around and good dialogue. Good visuals as well and I enjoyed the added grandeur that was missing in much of GoT. 

When I first read ASoIaF it was the Hand's Tourney chapters that really got me invested in the world so I commend them for putting a much better showing of a tourney though it had its issues as already expressed: Daemon's open helm and open cheating, there being too much gory death. However, the pageantry and other costumes (besides Daemon's) were great and it was a nice parallel between Aemma's bloody end and the bloodiness of the tourney. I think the writers wished to bring back these parallels between men and women that were expressed in GoT/Asoiaf as well (Cersei's comment about Sansa's bleeding) but with much more shocking effect. Aemma's end was heartbreaking and gruesome and I think it's right they didn't shy away from it.

The highlight in terms of the acting was Paddy Considine who managed to show quite a lot of range in just this one episode. He did more with Viserys than I was able to imagine from reading F&B. I think that, like Mark Addy in GoT, he may be one of the standouts of this season. That being said all the major characters and actors did a fine job.

The reveal at the end about Aegon's dream was weird. I get that was something GRRM said in an interview but technically it's not really canon so I don't know if we got spoiled or not. It also kinda weird that it's a thing even in the show's canon. It makes me think of how the US president gets told all the secrets at the beginning of his term - yes, there are aliens at Area 51. :laugh: But I suppose it's to draw the general GoT audience in - the Targaryens, mad or not, were in the right, and y'all Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons fucked up. 

Speaking of, interesting that the sole mention of Starks was the 2 second cameo of Lord Rickon Stark and there was not even a mention of Lannisters. The show needs to stand on its feet and I like it.

I also liked the ambiguity of whether or not Daemon really said those words about prince Baelon. 

Westeros is back on the screen!!! Lets hope it maintains a standard of high quality.

 

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1 minute ago, Corvinus85 said:

 

The reveal at the end about Aegon's dream was weird. I get that was something GRRM said in an interview but technically it's not really canon so I don't know if we got spoiled or not. It also kinda weird that it's a thing even in the show's canon. It makes me think of how the US president gets told all the secrets at the beginning of his term - yes, there are aliens at Area 51. :laugh: But I suppose it's to draw the general GoT audience in - the Targaryens, mad or not, were in the right, and y'all Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons fucked up. 

 

I quite liked the episode and actors and acting up until that end scene.  There is literally no need for tying that in unless this show is supposed to be running through the Dunk and Egg stuff.  Otherwise pretty pointless.

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14 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Tournaments do occasionally have fatalities as we saw with The Hedge Knight.

Yes. And what we also see in the Hedge Knight is that there are consequences for the one who didn't follow the rules. Even when he is a Targaryen prince. I wouldn't complain about some accident, but what they did pretty much goes against the basic idea of tourneys.

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

That's one place where we felt the show went over the top. I admit, sometimes the show goes a bit more lurid than I would have liked, and this is one of those. I think the intention here is that thing they keep saying in interviews: this is a decadent era, its known generations of peace and people are starting to get kind of crazy with it. Consider the pornography in the bed chambers (and realize that you'll notice it in the hallways, too...)

The first tourney we saw in GoT was rather violent as well, only the king was there to shut it down. Not the case this time around and thus no one had the clout to stop the affair.

I quite liked the scene and the contrast to childbirth tbh. 

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1 minute ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Where is that “fact” established?  Pray tell.

Ser Scot, every time the blood of Old Valyria is mentioned either in Fire & Blood or The World of Ice and Fire or the main novels, the description includes the silvery hair, the purple eyes and light skin. For example, Aegon III's wife Daena, who is praised for her beauty even when young is said to have the blood of Old Valyria being strong and the above descriptions are given to her. Therefore we must conclude that pure-blood Velaryons are white in the books. Now I made my peace with the show which has its own canon and won't go further into the issue. I also feel the actor for Corlys did a solid job and I can absolutely believe he is a lord of Westeros.

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I think the end scene is about giving Viserys a reason to feel a lot of doubt about his situation with his heir, and it will lend pathos to his story. That and, sure, giving the show-only fans a clear connection to GoT. 

I really think they went well beyond George's actual intent in the novels, though, and turned it into a very straightforward, blunt instrument. I suspect its rather more nuanced, as I've discussed elsewhere.

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1 minute ago, Ran said:

I think the end scene is about giving Viserys a reason to feel a lot of doubt about his situation with his heir, and it will lend pathos to his story. That and, sure, giving the show-only fans a clear connection to GoT. 

I really think they went well beyond George's actual intent in the novels, though, and turned it into a very straightforward, blunt instrument. I suspect its rather more nuanced, as I've discussed elsewhere.

That and will likely serve to make Rhaenyra more sympathetic in her drive to take the throne. Will she even tell Aegon about this?

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

The first tourney we saw in GoT was rather violent as well, only the king was there to shut it down.

I mean, there's a violent attempt at murder which gets stopped... but if Gregor had in fact murdered Loras, there'd be consequences. These guys weren't fighting to get one or the other to submit, it was very clearly shot like multiple people were murdering one another in the most unquestionable way, and yet the crowd loved it and there's no hint of consequences for it. There ought to be consequences. Hell, when Gregor tried to kill Loras, people start screaming not with pleasure or amusement but with fear and trying to get someone to intervene and so on.

Accidental tourney deaths do happen, in melees and jousts. No doubt some were not so accidental. But this one was just shot in a very over-the-top way -- there's no question they are trying to kill people, and people are lapping it up. Its an era of decadence, in the end, seems to be the explanation.

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I quite liked the scene and the contrast to childbirth tbh. 

I talked to Ryan about the scene and how much I liked the juxtaposition, and he said that that was thanks to George -- he's the one who suggested it.

Edited by Ran
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8 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Yes. And what we also see in the Hedge Knight is that there are consequences for the one who didn't follow the rules. Even when he is a Targaryen prince. I wouldn't complain about some accident, but what they did pretty much goes against the basic idea of tourneys.

Yeah and Criston Cole kicked his ass. Which I assume went over well with the audience.

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8 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Ser Scot, every time the blood of Old Valyria is mentioned either in Fire & Blood or The World of Ice and Fire or the main novels, the description includes the silvery hair, the purple eyes and light skin. For example, Aegon III's wife Daena, who is praised for her beauty even when young is said to have the blood of Old Valyria being strong and the above descriptions are given to her. Therefore we must conclude that pure-blood Velaryons are white in the books. Now I made my peace with the show which has its own canon and won't go further into the issue. I also feel the actor for Corlys did a solid job and I can absolutely believe he is a lord of Westeros.

Go ahead and disagree but they went a different direction. If it helps, assume the Velaryons of this universe took a few Summer Island wives.

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I'd also put Daemon's blatant cheating to be another part of the "age of decadence" approach they're taking with Viserys's reign. No one is going to say boo about it, not without the king there... and I'm not sure even Viserys would have bothered to remonstrate.

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Solid first episode. Really like it that they had scenes to let things breathe. Flight to KL, carriage through KL, walk through the castle. That's good to get a feeling for things.

I also very much enjoyed that we get actual group discsussions again, meaning council scenes and other group scenes. GoT dropped those pretty early, turning things in chamber play dialogues.

Also good to see that lots of people are there in many other scenes, that the KG are in attendance and do obey their king, etc.

Daemon-Rhaenyra work very well so far, I think, and I don't think Alicent-Rhaenyra are besties - it is more like school friends or, you know, how a princess and the daughter of the Hand might go along. What I do like is that it is clear that Alicent has a lot of suppressed/secret ambition and a kind of mean side (talk about the bastard in the belly). At this point she kind of stands up for Rhaenyra's rights (or what she sees as those) but that's going to change soon ... while Rhaenyra herself doesn't seem to be keen to be the heir or have any ambition to be more than she. But Alicent believes that she does have such an ambition. I buy it that she is happy as the pampered princess living the quiet life of somebody who doesn't have the shoulder the burden her father has to bear. And it is clear that she is more than happy with Daemon's being father's heir - she has no desire to supplant him

And while I still don't like black Velaryons ... Corlys as played by Steve Toussaint is my favorite character so far. It is the little things that make him great. The quiet dignity and confidence, the way how he puts his hand in front of the cup to signal he doesn't want anything to drink, how he hides the little smile when Borros Baratheon (it is he, no?) gives Rhaenys her due, etc.

Really like Viserys I so far. No party king yet ... but a fun guy nonetheless. And I think not a bad king so far, although Daemon might be right to a point in his assessment of his dear brother. You see this when he banishes Daemon since he is clearly led around by the nose by 'dear Otto' on that one - hinted at by the guy's smug confidence inviting his brother to court of the investiture via letter before the succession deal is actually make (at least that's one assumes is in the letter to Oldtown). How much power Otto wields at court is also quietly hinted at by Mellos first approaching the Hand who then takes it upon himself to inform the king about the queen's condition ... and earlier when he presumes to control the information about the health of the king.

But the thing is, to keep the peace in such a society you have to be able to moderate, to understand when you have to put your foot down and when not. Viserys seems to understand that. It is great to see the guy be able to see the difference between talk and treason when Otto 'Mr. Crown' suggesting cutting out Baratheon tongues is a great idea. This is the kind of thing an asshead like Daemon might easily end up doing, just as he pulled an Aerion on Ser Gwayne (just to mess with his father) or pushed aside Criston Cole's hand, revealing himself that the blood of the dragon can make shitty knights indeed.

I think you also see his great weaknesses there at the lists when he fails to realize that his enemy is not, in fact, defeated yet. It is overconfidence and carelessness that turns him into a loser there.

On to the shittier things:

15 minutes ago, miyuki said:

There were some horribly cringe scenes that really put me off. First the Gold Cloaks massacring criminals in King's Landing. I get that it was supposed to be a Daemon's "show" but it felt too random and I blame the editing.

That was horrible, horrible editing (and writing). They later say those were all guilty guys ... but all we see is a bunch of guards rounding up men on the streets who may or may not criminals. To us they are just people throughout the entire scene. This would have worked much better if Daemon had had a list of names, if it had been clear they had identified many criminals and were now arresting and punishing them.

I've no problem with showing the violence, but doing it this way the audience most likely remembers only the violence and not really why it was done. It might also have been good to kind of foreshadow the necessity there by giving Rhaenyra/Alicent a big retinue of armed guardsmen earlier.

15 minutes ago, miyuki said:

Second was the tourney. So they are randomly killing knights and nobles in jousting now? Those scenes were so unnecessarily violent. I liked Rhaenys citing Catelyn's thoughts about the green knights of the summer, but again, too violent that the whole thing came off stupid. There are a lot of jousts and melees in ASOIAF but never with this level of gore. But I guess the showrunners felt the episode needed action, since it's a pilot and they need the casual viewer to stick around.

That was indeed very off, and we might get another such scene later at the Rhaenyra-Laenor wedding. There could have been some symbolism there, seeing something like that happening after the king left, a sign that things can disintegrate quickly if the royal authority is absent or not there at all ... but there are people in place managing this tourney who would try to put a stop to that. Not to mention that the people in question there shouldn't actually hate each other.

If you want to include something like that, there has to be some meaning to it. I mean, they actually give the impression that this tourney it is 'fight to the death' (implied by Criston asking Daemon to yield).

The kind of aloof and distant way Corlys and Rhaenys talk about it is also pretty off. Don't they want to do something about this?

Have to say, I'm officially a Criston Cole fan now. He put that smug prick into place. In my mind one of the silly 'dragon wings' broke off Daemon's helmet and he looked even more ridiculous than he did. Very well done, Ser!

No idea though how on earth Alicent recognized Criston Cole as 'Dornish'. Was it the beard? That was so uncalled for at this point. The guy doesn't look different from anybody else at the tourney.

31 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Well, Viserys was given the choice of losing his wife or losing his wife and child, so I don't think he did anything wrong, just had a really hard choice to make.

The dreadful part is that he doesn't tell her what they are doing. That nobody tells her that she will die in any case and that they are only trying to save the baby.

31 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

Also, I think the violence of the tourney worked really well juxtaposed to the birthing bed. Highlighted the differences between the battles both sexes have to face as well as showing the needless violence of the tourney for entertainment.

The intercutting there is good, although it should have better been scenes of knights who die in accidents rather than brutally killing themselves for no apparent reason.

Finally it seems there was a lot cut material in the episodes:

The obvious bad cut is from the tourney/birth scene directly to the funeral. That makes no sense narratively, since the last time we see baby Baelon he is still alive and crying and the Grand Maester doesn't seem to be in distress at all. That the boy didn't learn we learn only from a very small pyre next to Aemma's.

Then there is the buildup that Rhaenyra might not exactly like it when her mother might die for her father's selfish desire for a son ... yet we see no reaction from her to her mother's death, her baby brother's death or her father's decision to cut her boy who didn't live out of her dying mother. That cannot have been the original plan of the writers. And we know from the reports that there were multiple mourning scenes written and shot - one between Daemon/Viserys where they talked about the gods, Valyria and Daenys (which is effectively confirmed since Viserys later namedrops Daenys without the audience knowing or understanding who that is ... just as the Valyria model is just a pointless prop without a proper scene establishing what this thing is supposed to represent), one where Rhaenyra learns about her mother and brother's death, one where Alicent comforts her after the funeral.

Then there was the actual 'heir for a day' speech which you can see Matt Smith is about to give when they cut away.

Similarly but less weird is the editing in the end with the intercutting of the conversation and the investiture - which I think causes both scenes to lose effect and gravitas. We get no reaction shots or answers from Rhaenyra when her father suddenly recognizes her as a potential heir nor do we get much of a feeling about what's going on during the investiture.

I think there is a good chance that those scenes were supposed to not be intercut with others (could be wrong, though).

One can only hope that they either make an extended cut of that episode later ... or at least release some of the deleted scenes there.

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

I'd also put Daemon's blatant cheating to be another part of the "age of decadence" approach they're taking with Viserys's reign. No one is going to say boo about it, not without the king there... and I'm not sure even Viserys would have bothered to remonstrate.

Yes, in the novel, Daemon is lot of thing, but he was never a cheat

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8 minutes ago, Ran said:

I mean, there's a violent attempt at murder which gets stopped... but if Gregor had in fact murdered Loras, there'd be consequences. These guys weren't fighting to get one or the other to submit, it was very clearly shot like multiple people were murdering one another in the most unquestionable way. There ought to be consequences. Hell, when Gregor tried to kill Loras, people start screaming not with pleasure or amusement but with fear.

Accidental tourney deaths do happen, in melees and jousts. No doubt some were not so accidental. But this one was just shot in a very over-the-top way -- there's no question they are trying to kill people, and people are lapping it up. Its an era of decadence, in the end, seems to be the explanation.

Decadence is the key word here which I would have used myself. This setting, Imo, is no different from the height of the Roman Empire during a period of extended peace. The bloodlust in the crowd was quite clear.

Quote

I talked to Ryan about the scene and how much I liked the juxtaposition, and he said that that was thanks to George -- he's the one who suggested it.

Appreciate the insight! 

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