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[Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion


Ran
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I started to write a whole explanation of why the race thing doesn’t actually matter and why white portryals in media is different from black portrayals but I’m not interested in engaging trolls or racists so I’m ignoring.

The reason I’m writing any comment at all is @Ran is there anyway we could get a rule against discussing this topic? You and Linda tried to engage the topic with nuance but we’ve already had over a year of racist complaints and it’s all repetitive and tired. 

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13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

You forgot Everett Ross existed, didn't you?

By which I assume you will now concede the argument and agree that it's fine.

Sorry to bring it ot again, but you are correct again, he was Wakanda born and breed. 

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you understand Alicent's reaction to Aemma and her inquiry about Viserys when she talks to Otto? I think there are subtle hints that she cares for Viserys in a way she shouldn't and Aemma knows or suspects it ... and she also doesn't want to say it to her father or Rhaenyra (although Otto clearly knows/suspects it, too, and plans to take advantage of it).

Do you think Alicent is correct in her assessment that Rhaenyra is pissed that her father's son would overshadow her? I don't think there is any hint in that direction and that this is Alicent's own secret ambition talking, nor her correct assessment of Rhaenyra.

I’m really curious if the decide to have Alicent be ambitious or if it’s really just Otto. It didn’t feel like she was on screen enough to tell yet. It did feel like her projecting onto Rhaenyra, who mostly seemed worried for her mother. The trailers show her believing Rhaenyra is devious or ruthless, but Rhaenyra here seems like she’s more interested in living her life and having fun. She wants to fly her dragon and go on adventures, much like Young Arya. But getting invited to the table of power seems like it might change Rhaenyra, which will also change the dynamic of their friendship as well I’m sure.

With Alicent’s crush - I felt that she was crushing on Daemon more than Viserys. After Daemon beat her brother and asked for Alicent’s favor, she glanced at Otto and he was obviously displeased with her giving it to Dameon. In comparison, she started getting anxious and biting her nails when her dad sent her to Viserys.

In that interaction, I read it as Alicent being a kind person and offering empathy because she knows that everyone is trying to politic Viserys. What he needs is someone to care for him, and she was that supportive shoulder when no one else was there for him. 

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3 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I’m really curious if the decide to have Alicent be ambitious or if it’s really just Otto. It didn’t feel like she was on screen enough to tell yet. It did feel like her projecting onto Rhaenyra, who mostly seemed worried for her mother. The trailers show her believing Rhaenyra is devious or ruthless, but Rhaenyra here seems like she’s more interested in living her life and having fun. She wants to fly her dragon and go on adventures, much like Young Arya. But getting invited to the table of power seems like it might change Rhaenyra, which will also change the dynamic of their friendship as well I’m sure.

With Alicent’s crush - I felt that she was crushing on Daemon more than Viserys. After Daemon beat her brother and asked for Alicent’s favor, she glanced at Otto and he was obviously displeased with her giving it to Dameon. In comparison, she started getting anxious and biting her nails when her dad sent her to Viserys.

In that interaction, I read it as Alicent being a kind person and offering empathy because she knows that everyone is trying to politic Viserys. What he needs is someone to care for him, and she was that supportive shoulder when no one else was there for him. 

I think we're seeing basically a slightly toned down version of Cersei Lannister's Start of DarknessTM. Basically, Alicent would love to be a Princess rather than the daughter of the King and actually cares about the fact Rhaenyra is about to be displaced as heir (even if she's not the heir--Alicent thinks Rhaenyra is). She's living vicariously through Rhaenyra to an extent. Just like Cersei would love to be Rhaegar's queen.

However, she DOES NOT want to be pimped out to Rhaenyra's father by her father and knows exactly what he's asking of her.

And that pimping out with Rhaenyra becoming the Heir (and probably the implicit, "I prostituted myself to make my son's heir and you're saying YOU will be Queen") will drive her half-crazy.

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@Corvinus85 @Mark Antony

re the passing down to heirs being a can of worms - I think it  depends how much they lean into the secret and how much they just let it be subtle in the background. Hopefully we don’t get Rhaenyra saying “but I know this big secret they need to make me queen to save the world!” Every other scene. But I also kind of want her to tell Jacaerys because we could get a great scene between him and Cregan Stark talking about the threat beyond the wall.

It would make total sense if there was a “you can tell your sister-wife or brother-husband” caveat to the rule. Aegon would almost certainly have told Visenya and Rhaenys, since they sat the Iron Throne in judgement in a way other queens did not. Aegon told Aenys who told Aegon the Uncrowned, Visenya told Maegor and went to get him as a stronger contender to lead the realm (there’s a solid chance that year was Winter, so it makes Visenya more justified).

Young Aegon tells Rhaena while debating if he should rebel, Rhaena tells Jaehaerys who tells Alysanne. Jaehaerys tells his many heirs, Viserys waits to tell Daemon because he’s not at risk of dying and it’s peace time.

Rhaenyra is also more justified in her  urgency because the Dance is during / prior to Winter so she could think the Long Night is nearing.

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I thought it was close to a triumph. I found it hard to watch at times but that's how I remember feeling about GoT. But the blood and the killing and the strum und drang and the overall disregard for human life; that's George's world. His voice shines through in GoT and it does here as well. You know how badly George wanted this show to succeed because he gave them the "Aegon called his dream the song of ice & fire" bit. That's a lore revelation he's been sitting on for years. I thought Paddy and Milly killed that scene, I loved it. 

Going in my #1 concern was the dialog. Almost all of the dialog in GoT that wasn't written by George was very bad. I thought here it was serviceable. There are lines I didn't like; a few stuck out as idioms or cliches from our world i.e. Otto "It should be kept quiet." This is a concern going forward but for this ep I wasn't turned off.

The production value is off the charts, it looked fantastic. Huge shoutout to the sound editing; the creaky chairs and candle burning sounds and door slammings were spectacular. There's just a lot more going on visually in this show compared to GoT; in some ways that's just a reflection of where "prestige" TV as a whole is at now compared to the 2010s, but I'm still impressed. I'm not expecting the Lotr show to top it.

And finally: I was truly impressed at the number of lore references that went largely/totally unexplained, throughout the episode. It gave a very real, hardcore fan vibe to the ep. It shows a respect for the audience that might be the biggest reason I'm excited for the rest of the season.

Edited by Vodalus
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I would have made the following changes:

1. Go with full nudity or excise it. The strategic camera shots and Godiva hair were distracting. Male and female both.
2. Mention a bit more reason why the Tournament is extra violent this year. "They're all competing for position and aren't holding back" or whatever.
3. Show the Heir for the Day toast and make it clear Otto is framing everything in the worst way possible.
4. I think a commentary on the Goldcloaks purge would have been topical. Either pro or for. Like, "The people don't care if the guard actually do their job. Previously, they didn't and just protected property of the rich."
5. I would have only had Viserys cut after banishing his brother. That has more mystical significance.

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55 minutes ago, RumHam said:

Right, but if it's a King to heir thing, how does it survive Maegor ?

Well, easily enough. For one, Aegon would have told this stuff definitely to Visenya and Rhaenys both to convince them of his ridiculous idea of conquering an entire continent with three dragons and three hundred men (one could also expect they told Brandon Snow and Torrhen Stark, and that's what made the latter the King Who Knelt and the former not-a-dragonslayer). Visenya could have told Maegor ... or Aegon could have since, he likely would have both his sons and his grandsons to know about why he did what he did, etc.

Jaehaerys is tricky thing, but Aenys died while his heir, Aegon the Uncrowned was far away, so he could have told Alyssa who would have told Jaehaerys (alternatively you could see Aenys/Aegon I telling Aegon the Uncrowned earlier, and Rhaena later passing it on to Jaehaerys). If one wants to speculate about this stuff like this could have come up in that famous conversation behind closed doors Jaehaerys had with his mother after he returned to KL from Dragonstone to rule in his own right.

Although I'd imagine something less straightforward and more subtle/complex for the book - this being knowledge that was put to paper and known to more than just the Targaryen heirs ... some believing in it, others ignoring or ridiculing it, tragedies and strife and mundane politics putting it into the background, so it is forgotten and rediscovered over the years. After the Dance it may have been lost until Aerys I went through the old scrolls, either during his own, ah, reign, or back when his father still sat on the throne.

 

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54 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I started to write a whole explanation of why the race thing doesn’t actually matter and why white portryals in media is different from black portrayals but I’m not interested in engaging trolls or racists so I’m ignoring.

The reason I’m writing any comment at all is @Ran is there anyway we could get a rule against discussing this topic? You and Linda tried to engage the topic with nuance but we’ve already had over a year of racist complaints and it’s all repetitive and tired. 

You know, most people who are against the blackwashing of house Velaryon are committed book fans who are also upset over every other change (no matter how insignificant) from the source material too, like Syrio not being bald or Arya being Tywin's cupbearer. Claiming only racists and trolls have an issue with that is dishonest.

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40 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

I’m really curious if the decide to have Alicent be ambitious or if it’s really just Otto. It didn’t feel like she was on screen enough to tell yet. It did feel like her projecting onto Rhaenyra, who mostly seemed worried for her mother. The trailers show her believing Rhaenyra is devious or ruthless, but Rhaenyra here seems like she’s more interested in living her life and having fun. She wants to fly her dragon and go on adventures, much like Young Arya. But getting invited to the table of power seems like it might change Rhaenyra, which will also change the dynamic of their friendship as well I’m sure.

I think the dynamic shows that Rhaenyra is pampered and spoiled, has to worry about nothing and can enjoy herself ... while Alicent's life is comparatively harder. She would have to make a good match and technically she and her dad are back in Oldtown and dependent on her uncle's good will should the king ever decided that dear Mr. Crown crowned a little bit too much today. That means she is more perceptive of things, more inquisitive ... but also judges people more by her own standards. You see the glee when she talks about the Stokeworth girl. She doesn't want women to get away with bastards in their belly or other such distasteful things.

40 minutes ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

With Alicent’s crush - I felt that she was crushing on Daemon more than Viserys. After Daemon beat her brother and asked for Alicent’s favor, she glanced at Otto and he was obviously displeased with her giving it to Dameon. In comparison, she started getting anxious and biting her nails when her dad sent her to Viserys.

Alicent also looks straight at Viserys in the funeral scene, before Otto sends her to Viserys. She likes him, not Daemon. With the Daemon thing we more see how great she is at hiding whatever feelings she has, I think. Otto can do that pretty well, too. They are not complaining.

Just realized they really went into Old King territory there with Alicent taking a book to Viserys. Hopefully she is going to read to him in the next episode before they have sex. Then we can pretend that she and Jaehaerys also had fun in the books. After all, she was speaking about the Old King all the time when she was dying.

But from what reports we got it seems that

Spoiler

Alicent will genuinely love Viserys and he her, although the love of his life will remain Aemma which is going to cause problems later in life when he is ailing because he is going to call Alicent 'Aemma' repeatedly. Another taken from the Old King who confused Alicent with Saera and some of his other daughters.

 

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13 minutes ago, miyuki said:

You know, most people who are against the blackwashing of house Velaryon are committed book fans who are also upset over every other change (no matter how insignificant) from the source material too, like Syrio not being bald or Arya being Tywin's cupbearer. Claiming only racists and trolls have an issue with that is dishonest.

That doesn't appear to be the case as there's quite a lot of Game of Thrones "fans" harassing the actor and using hate speech.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/aug/16/steve-toussaint-reveals-racist-abuse-after-being-cast-in-house-of-the-dragon

But, honestly, I hope we can just move past this issue since it's certainly not something that's going to change.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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I see in the Inside the Episode that Ryan credits Miguel with the juxtaposition of the birth with the tournament, but Miguel then cites the line used from George that birth is a woman's battlefield, so I think that's what Ryan was alluding to.

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Gold cloaks "peace and order" looked like deliberate murder like civilians are simply there out running in dark and they get randomly thrashed & cut left and right.

Didn't that maester/septon asked Viserys to choose between his baby's life and mother or leave it in gods hand? The birth scene & tourney was so violent, its perhaps only bested by Red wedding and Shireen or am i forgetting ?
I didn't like heir for the day being cut.Daemon's agreed to saying it and his army were clearly partying.

Being so tired of cock and balls jokes in final seasons of GOT. I was slightly annoyed at Rhaenys and Aemma using those words.

Dialouge were the weakest part.

I agree that Viserys stole the show with his acting there was no one close. Otto was sounding too Tywin even his voice.But at least Hightowers & Corlys Velaryon(despite being upjumped merchant family before and poor before his rise in TV lore) have a air of dignity even if they have big ambitions which i find lacking in Targaryens in this episode.


Borros Baratheon paying due resepect to his cousin the Queen who never was and subsequent applause from crowd was satisfying.

I also like that sex scenes aren't endearing it should always be nothing more than a plot neccessity.

Cole crushing unchivarlous Prince was satisfying but not sure how fans are supposed to react to future violence to come when everyone treats the tourney so casually. 

They should make things clearer as not everyone watches post episode interview. They could have definately made everything more fleshedout especially the tourney by leaving out that ASOIAF part which still leaves bitter after taste from main show.

 

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

I really think they went well beyond George's actual intent in the novels, though, and turned it into a very straightforward, blunt instrument. I suspect its rather more nuanced, as I've discussed elsewhere.

Just quoting this because Ryan's remarks in the Inside the Episode make this sound even more like what they're doing. He's pretty explicit that the way its portrayed in the show is to  connect up to GoT.

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I enjoyed it a lot. It’s, in many ways, what the later seasons of GoT should have been. Even if we compare it to the GoT pilot, I’d say that Heirs of the Dragons is more solid than Winter is Coming (although the later has a much stronger ending).

Good things:

  • I’ve been surprised by their unwillingness to sacrifice characters from the original story. Lazier showrunners might have started with Orwyle instead of Melos, Borros instead of Boremund, or may have erased Rhea Royce from existence. Also, even if they had non-speaking parts, things like having the Velaryon children attending the tourney were great.
  • As have been said by many, the colorful settings, banners and dresses are a beautiful to behold.
  • Having Alicent approach Viserys by sharing her experience of losing a mother was a nice detail not from the books.
  • Even if they are portraying her as a likeable protagonist, it’s cool that they are showing Rhaenyra’s frivolous side from the get-go. I was outraged at her for tearing that illuminated manuscript apart. She deserves to be eaten by a dragon only for that.

Things I didn’t like

  • Many of my complaints have already been dealt with, such the apparent randomness of how the Gold Cloaks violently seized every single pedestrian they found on the street.
  • Also, not a fan of the gruesome deaths at the tourney. Noble killings is not how one would celebrate the birth of an heir. And I don’t think it can be waved away as a sign of decadence. At least not in the way that Viserys I’s reign is supposed to be decadent. One would expect a bunch of summer knights, plump and careless, overconfident and unexperienced, and certainly not aiming for the kill.
  • It certainly wasn’t the best show to watch with my 7-months pregnant wife.
  • Given the importance of dragons on the show, I think that we should have seen more of them in the opening episode. We only had Syrax for most of the time, and then a little bit of Caraxes at the end. The opening scene at the Dragonpit was a missed opportunity of depicting half a dozen of dragons in the background, if only to showcase how many of them were around at the time.
  • The Valyrian-speaking bojutsu fighters seemed a little out of place. I wonder what they are aiming for with them.
  • I didn’t like Daemon spying on the Council Chamber. This should be one of the most closely guarded places in the Red Keep. And I don’t see the need at all. People at the Council were more than open in showing who they liked or hated.
  • I’m not entirely convinced with Matt Smith’s Daemon. It doesn’t help that two of the most important scenes for him (the Gold Cloak raid and the confrontation with Viserys at the Iron Throne) are awkwardly edited, and in the later, he is outplayed by Paddy Considine.
  • And the last scene didn’t work for me at all. I feel it distracts from the issues raised in the pilot, and it’s an odd way of closing the first hour.

Random thoughts:

  • Have you noticed that the golden Targaryen sigil from the opening seems to shift from four-legged to two-legged at the end?
  • I wonder what’s the point with the spheres from the council table. I can’t guess what they are trying to do with that.
Edited by The hairy bear
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12 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I honestly think the prophecy stuff will be in the books.

Why shouldn't it be? Rhaegar mentioned a song of ice and fire and he was prophesy obsessed. 

I do like how this revelation annoys a lot of people who in the past 11+ years have sunk deep into their own personal headcanons.

 

Edited by miyuki
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41 minutes ago, miyuki said:

Why shouldn't it be? Rhaegar mentioned a song of ice and fire and he was prophesy obsessed. 

I do like how this revelation annoys a lot of people who in the past 11+ years have sunk deep into their own personal headcanons.

 

It pretty well torpedoes fan theories that the Targaryens are the villains of the saga.

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I don't think that follows. I mean, if they mean "they are the overarching cause of all problems, including the coming of the Others", sure. But if people want to think that someone can have a prophesized role to play and also be bad to have around, I think that's not weird.

 

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39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I enjoyed it a lot. It’s, in many ways, what the later seasons of GoT should have been. Even if we compare it to the GoT pilot, I’d say that Heirs of the Dragons is more solid than Winter is Coming (although the later has a much stronger ending).

I think this first episode was better than GoT's for us book readers since it had all the elements we usually want.. it had everyone of the characters , all the colorful heraldry and weird helmets and so on .also CGI was just perfect . Red Keep never looked better and I always complained about Winterfell's muddy yard! however, putting myself in a non book fan shoes, it wasn't a first episode that gets you hooked . with GoT you kept watching to see what the hell are the ice demons and if that was not enough you would have continued to see if the cute little kid survives and to see what is up with exiled blond siblings. with this one you didn't exactly had anything that makes you curious to watch the next episode . Viserys's talk with Rhaenyra was suppose to be that thing which just felt off. that is not to say that is necessarily how successful shows begin but GoT's pilot was better in attracting a new audience.

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

 

 

  • Many of my complaints have already been dealt with such the apparent randomness of how the Gold Cloaks violently seized every single pedestrian they found on the street, the over-the-top violence at the tourney.

two scenes and the Gold Cloaks scene would've been fine: 1. add some crime happening in Kingslanding when Rhaenyra passes through (even from above would have been fine) 2. have Daemon bring forth a list to counsel and say how he had pursued all the known criminals last night . 

despite my usual complains about Bronn in GoT , he and Tyrion had a pretty good scene in S2 where they established Bronn's role as a brutal commander of the city watch and how it's necessary for KL!

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:
  • Also, not a fan of the gruesome deaths at the tourney. Noble killings is not how one would celebrate the birth of an heir. And I don’t think it can be waved away as a sign of decadence. At least not in the way that Viserys I’s reign is supposed to be decadent. One would expect a bunch of summer knights, plump and careless, overconfident and unexperienced, and certainly not aiming for the kill.

exactly.

39 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:
  •  

  • It certainly wasn’t the best show to watch with my 7-months pregnant wife.

no . no, it wasn't! :leaving:

53 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Wow...it's jarring seeing how good the cinematography in this is. It looks like other TV shows, and not just obsessively using tight closeups on the lead actor faces.

yes! and CGI and sets were all that I wanted:) though the editing in some parts were a little off , don't you agree? Gold Cloaks or straight into Aemma's funeral or the last scene between Viserys and Rhaenyra were of those moments

53 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

I honestly think the prophecy stuff will be in the books.

I agree . but I believe it'll be more mysterious meaning Aegon wouldn't have known what exactly the danger would be (winter)  and what he's supposed to do (uniting the realm) would be all his own solution . also I expect Song of Ice and Fire to be how Rhaegar dubs it with his own dreams and/or studies. surprisingly , they have handled Viserys's dream far better than Aegon's dream .Viserys will have a son with Aegon's crown only to be a screw up and all the dragons do roar but not as one! it's like Ryan Condal has handled Visery's prophecy like a professional that he is and Aegon's like a fanboy who wants to see his theory come forth!:P

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