spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although GRRM often says that those who think that his books are too violent haven't read much about the real Middle Ages.

Speaking as a Master of Medieval History, George is telling the truth but he's also combined 16 or so separate events infamous for their horror into a single 5-7 year time period. Plus things like "First Night" are Medieval urban legends.

Edited August 22, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[Mithras]

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

I’m a little confused by the tourney violence. Were people allowed to actually kill each other in this tourney? It certainly looked like they were. 

Absolutely not. Sucker punches are definitely not chivalrous. Dirty moves like Daemon did to unhorse the Hightower should get him an instant disqualification.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Absolutely not. Sucker punches are definitely not chivalrous. Dirty moves like Daemon did to unhorse the Hightower should get him an instant disqualification.

I mean it looked like they were to me. Maybe they should of held back on the violence a bit.

[C.T. Phipps]

3 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Absolutely not. Sucker punches are definitely not chivalrous. Dirty moves like Daemon did to unhorse the Hightower should get him an instant disqualification.

Yep. It's good to be Prince.

He was breaking rules left and right, like with picking his own opponents. Criston Cole whooping his ass was probably the first time he's ever lost a fight because no one would want to beat him.

[Mithras]

I mean, anyone who read the Hedge Knight should instantly realize the wanton butchery of the whole idea about tourneys in this episode. And this show is praised as having GRRM-approved faith to the source material.

[BlackLightning]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

For me, it is mostly the apparent absence of rules. So you joust and then, when something goes bad for you and you get angry you butcher the opponent? That's just weird as hell.

It was weird.

But I had real problem with the tourney scene. They could've made it more explicit that this is not how it was supposed to go.

But other than that, I liked it. I felt like it was an artistic decision to juxtapose the unnecessary gore of the tourney (which really, at the end of the day, is just a game) with the necessary gore of the queen's emergency c-section. Rhaenys' "knights of summer" lines (as well as Catelyn's in the books) refer to that...these so-called knights are jokes.

Not only are they openly unchivalrous and don't even realize it, but they are also treating a game as a matter of life and death. It's wasteful and unintelligent. The audience hears that and then comes to understand the silliness of it all while Viserys and Aemma are fighting on a "real" battlefield.

It all goes back to Aemma and Rhaenyra's discussion about how the childbed is a battlefield.

With Rhaenys saying that the knights and squires at the tourney have "fists full of steel and balls full of seed," she's calling them boys who are playing war games with their toys.

 

Basically, the whole sequence (and that earlier scene with a very-pregnant Aemma having hot flashes and Rhaenyra skipping in from dragonriding) is about what separates the men from the boys in Westeros.

Boys and girls are more concerned with riding and prancing around with colorful sigils, having sex, drinking wine and beating each other with sharp wooden and metal sticks. Men and women are making tough split-second decisions, enduring serious setbacks and fighting for their lives and those of their children.

 

We saw it back in the Eddard and Sansa POV's of the Hand's Tourney in the Game of Thrones novel.

[Corvinus85]

20 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But I think this episode should have been 15 minutes longer. We definitely should've had Daemon's speech in the brothel shown in full while it was intercut with Otto's retelling of it. And we should've had more time for Rhaenyra mourn the deaths of her mother and brother and blame her father. We saw Otto, Alicent, Viserys and even Daemon in multiple scenes express feelings of grief, disappointment and anguish...but not much from Rhaenyra. Maybe we'll more of that in other episodes.

I thought not showing the entirety of the brothel speech was a good move. Like the story in F&B may not be 100% accurate because we have three different accounts telling it. So I liked that the show writers employed some ambiguity. Did Daemon really say that? He didn't deny it but he didn't fully admit it and Viserys had to rely on Daemon's biggest foe.

23 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I also think that it would've gone over better for this episode to actually show us Viserys' dreams (particularly the last one about the Long Night) rather than have Viserys tell us. Having Viserys tells us makes him look strange versus seeing his dreams and watching him recount it would have made him look more inspired.

Viserys didn't dream about the Long Night, Aegon the Conqueror did and the info just got passed down the generations of Targs. Viserys's dream about him placing his son on the IT may not have been prophetic; or maybe it was but Viserys's interpretation of it is clearly incomplete.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I love what they did with Queen Aemma. I love the emphasis that they had put on childbirth, pregnancy and medieval healthcare in the show. This show definitely feels more like Westeros than GoT did.

The thing is, it is pretty obvious that there was much more than that. Rhaenyra's entire story in the first episode is about her being the only one caring for her mother as a person (which is also kind of mimicked by Alicent being the one caring for Viserys in a similar way).

They do show the actual birth ... but then they gloss over the death of Baelon, and the effects all that has on Rhaenyra and Viserys. We should have seen Rhaenyra's reaction to the news that her mother is dead. And that stuff was all filmed.

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

But I think this episode should have been 15 minutes longer. We definitely should've had Daemon's speech in the brothel shown in full while it was intercut with Otto's retelling of it. And we should've had more time for Rhaenyra mourn the deaths of her mother and brother and blame her father. We saw Otto, Alicent, Viserys and even Daemon in multiple scenes express feelings of grief, disappointment and anguish...but not much from Rhaenyra. Maybe we'll more of that in other episodes.

The intercutting there worked - or rather: it would have, if we had gotten both Daemon's speech and Otto's retelling of it. So we actually don't know what happened there.

From what we know there are lots of scenes missing between/after the tourney/c-section and funeral, namely:

For Rhaenyra:

(1) Her arrival at court once she realizes something bad must have happened (last tourney scene) where she finds her mother's bed already empty, and arrives just in time to hear the announcement that Baelon has just died. Upon hearing this, she runs away.

(2) After the funeral Rhaenyra breaks down in Alicent's arms.

(3) Later Rhaenyra and Alicent pray for Aemma's soul in the sept. Alicent consoles Rhaenyra telling her about the death of her own mother. I think that's a scene we have seen pictures of, them standing at the altar with the giant woman, presumably the Mother. One imagines that she would have expressed her anger about her father insisting that he needed a son, killing her mother in the process of it, etc.

This would be the scene Otto refers to when he asks Alicent how Rhaenyra is doing before sending her to Viserys.

For Daemon/Viserys:

(1) The big scene where they talk about the gods, Valyria, Daenys the Dreamer, and prophetic dreams (with Viserys not talking about 'the song of ice and fire' because Daemon mocks belief in prophecy and providence) seems to take place after Viserys storms out of the Small Council session about the succession. That this scene was in there is obvious since Viserys later mentions Daenys Who in passing, and the audience has no idea what he is talking about. Not to mention the Valyria model he is playing with which makes no sense without the earlier talk (which I assume would have taken place in Viserys' chambers as well).

(2) Prior to the brothel scene Daemon goes apparently out into the night to do some more arresting/cleaning up as a way to deal with his own grief. I imagine that could have been good to see as well since it could have explained how ended up in the brothel later. We see him sitting there clearly unhappy and sad, but don't know why and how he ended up there.

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I also think that it would've gone over better for this episode to actually show us Viserys' dreams (particularly the last one about the Long Night) rather than have Viserys tell us. Having Viserys tells us makes him look strange versus seeing his dreams and watching him recount it would have made him look more inspired.

Well, the latter dream was Aegon the Conqueror's, so not easy to show it.

His own dream they could have shown ... but I honestly think it was more wishful-thinking than actual prophecy. It didn't seem to foreshadow Aegon II at all - rather Aemma's death in childbirth since the boy wearing Aegon's iron crown easily enough could mean death from childbirth as Aemma points out.

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm so glad to know that I wasn't the only one who caught that.

Viserys would've stopped it from getting out of  hand like Robert Baratheon did. But Rhaenys has the stomach and the mind for it...but it was all very mid for her. So she let it continue; because as the next most senior member of House Targaryen present, she could've stopped it.

Not so sure Viserys would have stopped it. He also had no problem with Daemon being an Aerion-like dick to Gwayne in the lists. Granted, wanton murder is another category, but Rhaenys and Corlys' aloof took seems to imply that this kind of thing is normal ... and that's just weird as hell.

[The hairy bear]

45 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Accidents happen.

Some of the deaths depicted onscreen could pass as accidents, and I'm fine with those. But there were others clearly depicting how combatants had their heads crushed when they were already defeated and on the ground. Who would be fool enough to do that?  victory was theirs, and they'll only make an enemy of the family and friends of the defeated.

31 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Viserys would've stopped it from getting out of  hand like Robert Baratheon did. But Rhaenys has the stomach and the mind for it...but it was all very mid for her. So she let it continue; because as the next most senior member of House Targaryen present, she could've stopped it.

I think it's unfair to place the responsibility of stopping it to Rhaenys. She was just the king's cousin and would have no authority in matters of fights and tourneys. There were plenty of people present that outranked her: Daemon, the Hand, any member of the Small Council, the master-at-arms,...

Edited August 22, 2022 by The hairy bear

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

24 minutes ago, Mithras said:

Absolutely not. Sucker punches are definitely not chivalrous. Dirty moves like Daemon did to unhorse the Hightower should get him an instant disqualification.

Maybe they're going with WWE rules? Where it's not cheating unless the referee sees it.

[Crona]

 They did the violence on purpose to contrast the violence of birthing (battle in the birthing bed). And they allowed  Daemon getting away with cheating because he’s spoiled and nobody can call him out. This story has more symbolism and magical feeling elements than GOT. 

I think they did a pretty good job, Alicent and Rhaenyra’s friendship is a welcome change. Some parts definitely felt cringey like when Viserys talked about White Walkers.  Some of the CGI dragons looked goofy. I like the rivalry between Daemon and Otto, although Daemon is pretty unlikeable. So far I’m liking it and seeing where it goes. The show has a long way to go since they starting from Aemma’s death. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Looks like they’ll be plenty of deleted scenes on the DVD/Blu-ray set. I’m thinking they probably cut scenes because the episode was already over an hour long.

Ironically, Alicent was probably the most straightforward “good” character in this episode (although it was a little weird that she gave Daemon her favor after he cheap-shotted her brother, but I guess she felt obligated to in that moment?)

Looking at the “weeks ahead” trailer, there doesn’t seem to be any quotable dialogue, which is unfortunate. Zingers don’t mean much—most of the dialogue for the later GOT scenes were cringe—but it has made the trailers more underwhelming. 

Part of me thinks that HBO is hoping to reboot GOT within the next few years (knowing George, he probably thinks he’ll have the books finished by then), which will retroactively make all this prophecy stuff satisfying. But that’s a pretty big gamble.

[BlackLightning]

Another thing I love about this episode is how Otto just casually disrespects Corlys. Repeatedly. Corlys is either ignored or talked over or his feelings/thoughts are readily dismissed. His body language in one Small Council scene was like "why am I even here?"

It's good to see that Daemon is the not only one a little frustrated with Viserys' rule.

Rhaenys is very "cool story bro...what's for dinner?" about it, Aemma is just exhausted, Otto clearly doesn't care about the king outside of the fact that he is his employer...Corlys doesn't think Viserys is a particularly good or strong ruler either.

 

9 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I think it's unfair to place the responsibility of stopping it to Rhaenys. She was just the king's cousin and would have no authority in matters of fights and tourneys. There were plenty of people present that outranked her: Daemon, the Hand, any member of the Small Council, the master-at-arms,...

LOL

I can't believe that you would think that any member of the Small Council and the master-at-freaking-arms would outrank a  royal dragonriding princess over the age of 40.

Well, I'm glad you mentioned Daemon because that's another reason why the carnage escalated and continued.

But no.

You might have an argument with the Hand. But the Hand doesn't really even outrank the princess.

The only people who have the responsibility to stop it are the king, queen and the hand...but the Hand is not a good man and the king and queen are not present. However, Princess Rhaenys could have stopped it if she wanted to. It wasn't her responsibility and she didn't want to.

18 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The intercutting there worked - or rather: it would have, if we had gotten both Daemon's speech and Otto's retelling of it. So we actually don't know what happened there.

From what we know there are lots of scenes missing between/after the tourney/c-section and funeral, namely:

For Rhaenyra:

(1) Her arrival at court once she realizes something bad must have happened (last tourney scene) where she finds her mother's bed already empty, and arrives just in time to hear the announcement that Baelon has just died. Upon hearing this, she runs away.

(2) After the funeral Rhaenyra breaks down in Alicent's arms.

(3) Later Rhaenyra and Alicent pray for Aemma's soul in the sept. Alicent consoles Rhaenyra telling her about the death of her own mother. I think that's a scene we have seen pictures of, them standing at the altar with the giant woman, presumably the Mother. One imagines that she would have expressed her anger about her father insisting that he needed a son, killing her mother in the process of it, etc.

This would be the scene Otto refers to when he asks Alicent how Rhaenyra is doing before sending her to Viserys.

For Daemon/Viserys:

(1) The big scene where they talk about the gods, Valyria, Daenys the Dreamer, and prophetic dreams (with Viserys not talking about 'the song of ice and fire' because Daemon mocks belief in prophecy and providence) seems to take place after Viserys storms out of the Small Council session about the succession. That this scene was in there is obvious since Viserys later mentions Daenys Who in passing, and the audience has no idea what he is talking about. Not to mention the Valyria model he is playing with which makes no sense without the earlier talk (which I assume would have taken place in Viserys' chambers as well).

(2) Prior to the brothel scene Daemon goes apparently out into the night to do some more arresting/cleaning up as a way to deal with his own grief. I imagine that could have been good to see as well since it could have explained how ended up in the brothel later. We see him sitting there clearly unhappy and sad, but don't know why and how he ended up there.

So it was a matter of editing.

That's crazy. They should've left all those scenes in the episode. It would've gone over a lot smoother.

I still maintain that we should've seen Prince Baelor alive in at least another scene (aka for a few hours) before his health fails. It would've been nice. Because a baby that has been breeching for too long does tend to have medical problems. In those days, those are the babies that would die.

35 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Viserys didn't dream about the Long Night, Aegon the Conqueror did and the info just got passed down the generations of Targs. Viserys's dream about him placing his son on the IT may not have been prophetic; or maybe it was but Viserys's interpretation of it is clearly incomplete.

Understood.

But something about Viserys' recounting of Aegon the Conqueror's dragon dreams about the Long Night felt off.

[C.T. Phipps]

I mean, I imagine this is Rhaenyra's reaction to someone getting butchered before her.

"[FUCK YES! WOOT! KILL EM!]" in High Valyrian

 

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Part of me thinks that HBO is hoping to reboot GOT within the next few years (knowing George, he probably thinks he’ll have the books finished by then), which will retroactively make all this prophecy stuff satisfying. But that’s a pretty big gamble.

They should make plans to reboot it as soon as GRRM (and whomever helps him if that happens) finishes the books.

The magic and prophecy alone will make GOT and the ASOIAF TV series completely different, much less the plot.

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not so sure Viserys would have stopped it. He also had no problem with Daemon being an Aerion-like dick to Gwayne in the lists. Granted, wanton murder is another category, but Rhaenys and Corlys' aloof took seems to imply that this kind of thing is normal ... and that's just weird as hell.

Corlys certainly didn't look aloof to me.

Rhaenys did. But she just didn't care. Not because it was normal but because she saw it for what it was: a dog-and-pony show ...and not a particularly good one either.

[C.T. Phipps]

35 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Some of the deaths depicted onscreen could pass as accidents, and I'm fine with those. But there were others clearly depicting how combatants had their heads crushed when they were already defeated and on the ground. Who would be fool enough to do that?  victory was theirs, and they'll only make an enemy of the family and friends of the defeated.

I mean, it's literally one of George R.R. Martin's point that people DON'T make informed sensible political decisions in Westeros. Ever. They act on their own morality, bloodlust, or in the heat of the moment as depending on the circumstances. But that's actually not my defense. If they are in a melee, the fight continues until one side yields. As Daemon illustrates, correctly, until an opponent yields the fight is on.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 minutes ago, Crona said:

 They did the violence on purpose to contrast the violence of birthing (battle in the birthing bed)  

That still doesn't make much sense in-universe, though.

[sifth]

Was it just me, or did Otto remind anyone else of Tywin? Maybe it was just in the way he spoke, but get was giving me Tywin vibes for some strange reason.

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Looks like they’ll be plenty of deleted scenes on the DVD/Blu-ray set. I’m thinking they probably cut scenes because the episode was already over an hour long.

I'm hoping for an extended cut for the pilot being released in some fashion. Would even buy the sets if they did something like that.

8 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Part of me thinks that HBO is hoping to reboot GOT within the next few years (knowing George, he probably thinks he’ll have the books finished by then), which will retroactively make all this prophecy stuff satisfying. But that’s a pretty big gamble.

A reboot could be great, but it might be interesting enough as a connection to TWoW if the promised prince/a song of ice and fire prophecy stuff is finally elaborated on more in that book. I mean, Marwyn must know something about that, right? And Bran also must see stuff in the past. Bloodraven also knows stuff about all that, too.

4 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Another thing I love about this episode is how Otto just casually disrespects Corlys. Repeatedly. Corlys is either ignored or talked over or his feelings/thoughts are readily dismissed. His body language in one Small Council scene was like "why am I even here?"

You know, there is that scene when Viserys storms out and the others leave but Corlys and Otto remain in the council chamber all by themselves. Could have been good to get a few seconds more there, and an exchange of looks or some short lines.

I guess we'll see how things come to heads again with the Triarchy next week, in addition to Viserys' decison to marry Alicent rather than Laena.

And, yes, I think Daemon is dead right about Otto only caring for Viserys as an instrument for his power. He controls the information about Viserys' illness because he wants to remain in charge. That's why he wants to push Daemon out of the succession. And that's also why he wants to install Alicent as queen and why he wants to eventually see his grandson on the throne - so that he can continue to rule the Seven Kingdoms because he knows what's best for 'the Crown'.

I think his story will really one of guy who ends up creating things he cannot control. Even in season 1 it should be great to see how the dynamics between Ser Otto and Queen Alicent change. I guess during his first term as Hand he'll keep the upper hand (pun intended) as her father and the guy who made her queen. But once she is the one bringing him back into office the dynamics might be considerably different. He might still try to stay in charge playing on her fear of Rhaenyra and Daemon ... but in the end it seems she ends up being the leader of the Green camp.

But they are going to be both having very ugly surprises when Aegon II finally establish himself as king. Although I think Aegon will never be able to escape from the yoke of his mother. Aside from the brief moment of 'freedom' between Otto's dismissal and Rook's Rest.

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Although GRRM often says that those who think that his books are too violent haven't read much about the real Middle Ages.

As it happens, I disagree.  Medieval Europe could be very violent, but it was not mostly so.  Judging by homicide rates, it was a lot less violent than modern Latin America or the Caribbean.

One can certainly point to precedents for every type of violence in the books, but it's always at the extreme end of what was normal.  The warfare in Westeros resembles the Thirty Years War, far more than it does the Wars of the Roses.  Chattel slavery is always horrible, but Essossi slavery is at the extreme end of cruelty and waste of human life.