spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[C.T. Phipps]

33 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One of the complaints from critics was that there’s no one to root for. I’ve always felt that book fans way overrate Daemon—he’s a huge villain who has no redeeming qualities beyond martial prowess, but he had a cool death, so that apparently makes him a good guy. (I also think book fans overrate Rhaenyra’s terribleness. Nothing she does holds a candle to 90% of the leaders in the main series, including Daenerys).

I don’t like violence, it was never a draw for me. I try to just kind of look past it in order to enjoy the story and characters. So it’s always unsettled me a little just how into the violence show-fans are.

I mean I fully expect them to whitewash and go overboard for Rhaenyra.

[Lord Varys]

26 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Yeah, there's a lot of people who think Daemon is being set up as the villain.

They clearly intend that. So far no Daemon-Rhaenyra kissing in the trailers (I'm sure we get that when they marry and afterwards), so the casual audience should assume that Daemon is going to turn against Viserys and Rhaenyra because of the changed succession. And since Otto hates Daemon and Alicent is Rhaenyra's friend they expect they will be on their side.

10 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

I mean I get that Daemon's viewed as the villain , but Otto a Ned Stark figure?! didn't they see him interrupting Corlys's discussion about an actual issue to talk about a party instead?!!! Ned hated tourneys!  

But Otto is competent nonetheless, and confident, and he seems to care about the common good and the Realm and, folks might assume, even his king (you can interpret the scene where he keeps Viserys' secret as an attempt to shield his king from bad press).

I mean I already said it - Criston introduction made me root for him. I dislike the book character to a degree, view him as a Littlefinger-type Kingsguard ... but I could actually like that guy because he is an outsider - very much a Dunk character - trying to get into this court of snakes, and they will play with him until he (kind of) fights back. I had similar feelings for Gwayne Hightower ... and find it said that we will most likely not see more of him.

And speaking about this - the redeeming/interesting part about the Hightowers and Criston Cole in this show might be that the Targaryens (and Velaryons) really close the door on them, so to speak. They are the blood of the dragon, they are the high and mighty people who don't have to follow the rules of normal mortals (i.e. also the rules of 'the normal nobility').

In the book context there is this one line of Viserys about Alicent 'wanting her blood on the throne' which we all found kind of telling, since it implies he kind of thought that his children by Alicent were 'lesser Targaryens' because they hadn't the blood of the dragon on both sides of their bloodline.

The show could play up that angle - especially since it is quite clear that Viserys first love, his great love, will be Aemma, not Alicent.

Spoiler

The reports even said that the ailing Viserys is going to confuse Alicent with Aemma repeatedly, which is going to hurt her.

If they do that then 'the Strong boys' might hurt Alicent even more because not only would also not be Targaryen on both sides ... they would also not look the part and they would technically be bastards. Yet Rhaenyra will get away with all that and Viserys is going to dote on them like they were his own sons and in a way he never doted on Alicent's sons.

This kind of thing is the key here. It must be personal, these people must feel hurt on a personal level.

I think we also see that in the kind of way Viserys and Rhaenyra don't react to Daemon's Aerion-like move at the tourney. If somebody did this to Daemon there would likely be an outrage. But a Targaryen prince can do it, and there is no issue. I mean, Otto and Alicent might not be lords in their own right, but Otto's office makes him the second most powerful man in the Realm ... yet he is no royal, not part of that illustrious circle, and that shows.

If they go down that path then, I think, we could really say they understand what George aimed at with this whole inbred family What it means to be Targaryen in this universe, and why they are different from a more mundane royal family like the Baratheons. In a sense, I think, they might view only each other as 'fully human', with others being people in a lesser sense.

Daemon, especially, can be nice and tender with Rhaenyra and craves the love of his royal brother ... but other people aside from Mysaria don't really exist for him. He treats them all like shit.

15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But I just can't see it. He starts out as a jerk and continiues to be a jerk throughout the story. So I don't really know what to think.

Daemon certainly is an interesting character ... but there is nothing bright there. He doesn't do anything where one would say, well, that was 'good'. It shows he has a nice side. I mean, take Roose Bolton - I'm willing to forgive him a lot of shit for that tidbit about how he seems to enjoying sex with Fat Walda. That's just a touching tidbit. Even Maegor has a kind of human moment ... although it involves him sitting on the throne with a head.

But Daemon is just like ... well, the young Aerys II with more muscles and a sword. He has no plan, no real goal, no vision, nothing. Even if we assume he did only half of what's laid at his door (and that's not unlikely) then you have still look for the good parts.

Part of the good qualities of Oberyn, say, are his love for his daughters and paramour, his lingering love for his dead sister and her children, and, most importantly, his love for and loyalty to his elder brother, the Prince of Dorne. But George failed to develop Daemon's role as a father both for Baela and Rhaena and Aegon and Viserys. Nor his role as a stepfather for Laenor's sons.

The show's decision to make Daemon crave the love and respect of his brother, the decision to give him a vulnerable side that way is a great way to go. And one can only hope he and Rhaenyra will work as a power couple and he is going to be there for his daughters and sons and stepsons as long as they are around. That way he can be a great character.

But the dude George created isn't, really.

14 minutes ago, Chancho said:

if you ever saw a police operation going up the slums here in brazil, you now for a fact that this gold cloaks operation was full of "colateral damage", that was some sick shit there, and everyone a their fathers know that was little to no process on this criminal purge, too bad there isn't brown people in king's landing, it would make easier to the gold cloacks decide whom to punish.

I agree there.

I think the scene would have worked much better if it had been clear that they had lists and names and were identifying people rather than rounding up people which could have been easily enough just innocent bystanders. Not to mention that it would also have helped to see how lawless KL was in certain quarters before coming up with this as 'the cure'.

Because the message of this whole operation there is that this is cruel but effective, and the Kingslanders love Daemon for that. The people of KL don't feel oppressed or mistreated by that kind of thing ... although they very much should in light of how this was portrayed.

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

They clearly intend that. So far no Daemon-Rhaenyra kissing in the trailers (I'm sure we get that when they marry and afterwards), so the casual audience should assume that Daemon is going to turn against Viserys and Rhaenyra because of the changed succession. And since Otto hates Daemon and Alicent is Rhaenyra's friend they expect they will be on their side.

But Otto is competent nonetheless, and confident, and he seems to care about the common good and the Realm and, folks might assume, even his king (you can interpret the scene where he keeps Viserys' secret as an attempt to shield his king from bad press).

I mean I already said it - Criston introduction made me root for him. I dislike the book character to a degree, view him as a Littlefinger-type Kingsguard ... but I could actually like that guy because he is an outsider - very much a Dunk character - trying to get into this court of snakes, and they will play with him until he (kind of) fights back. I had similar feelings for Gwayne Hightower ... and find it said that we will most likely not see more of him.

And speaking about this - the redeeming/interesting part about the Hightowers and Criston Cole in this show might be that the Targaryens (and Velaryons) really close the door on them, so to speak. They are the blood of the dragon, they are the high and mighty people who don't have to follow the rules of normal mortals (i.e. also the rules of 'the normal nobility').

In the book context there is this one line of Viserys about Alicent 'wanting her blood on the throne' which we all found kind of telling, since it implies he kind of thought that his children by Alicent were 'lesser Targaryens' because they hadn't the blood of the dragon on both sides of their bloodline.

The show could play up that angle - especially since it is quite clear that Viserys first love, his great love, will be Aemma, not Alicent.

  Hide contents

The reports even said that the ailing Viserys is going to confuse Alicent with Aemma repeatedly, which is going to hurt her.

If they do that then 'the Strong boys' might hurt Alicent even more because not only would also not be Targaryen on both sides ... they would also not look the part and they would technically be bastards. Yet Rhaenyra will get away with all that and Viserys is going to dote on them like they were his own sons and in a way he never doted on Alicent's sons.

This kind of thing is the key here. It must be personal, these people must feel hurt on a personal level.

I think we also see that in the kind of way Viserys and Rhaenyra don't react to Daemon's Aerion-like move at the tourney. If somebody did this to Daemon there would likely be an outrage. But a Targaryen prince can do it, and there is no issue. I mean, Otto and Alicent might not be lords in their own right, but Otto's office makes him the second most powerful man in the Realm ... yet he is no royal, not part of that illustrious circle, and that shows.

If they go down that path then, I think, we could really say they understand what George aimed at with this whole inbred family What it means to be Targaryen in this universe, and why they are different from a more mundane royal family like the Baratheons. In a sense, I think, they might view only each other as 'fully human', with others being people in a lesser sense.

Daemon, especially, can be nice and tender with Rhaenyra and craves the love of his royal brother ... but other people aside from Mysaria don't really exist for him. He treats them all like shit.

Daemon certainly is an interesting character ... but there is nothing bright there. He doesn't do anything where one would say, well, that was 'good'. It shows he has a nice side. I mean, take Roose Bolton - I'm willing to forgive him a lot of shit for that tidbit about how he seems to enjoying sex with Fat Walda. That's just a touching tidbit. Even Maegor has a kind of human moment ... although it involves him sitting on the throne with a head.

But Daemon is just like ... well, the young Aerys II with more muscles and a sword. He has no plan, no real goal, no vision, nothing. Even if we assume he did only half of what's laid at his door (and that's not unlikely) then you have still look for the good parts.

Part of the good qualities of Oberyn, say, are his love for his daughters and paramour, his lingering love for his dead sister and her children, and, most importantly, his love for and loyalty to his elder brother, the Prince of Dorne. But George failed to develop Daemon's role as a father both for Baela and Rhaena and Aegon and Viserys. Nor his role as a stepfather for Laenor's sons.

The show's decision to make Daemon crave the love and respect of his brother, the decision to give him a vulnerable side that way is a great way to go. And one can only hope he and Rhaenyra will work as a power couple and he is going to be there for his daughters and sons and stepsons as long as they are around. That way he can be a great character.

But the dude George created isn't, really.

I agree there.

I think the scene would have worked much better if it had been clear that they had lists and names and were identifying people rather than rounding up people which could have been easily enough just innocent bystanders. Not to mention that it would also have helped to see how lawless KL was in certain quarters before coming up with this as 'the cure'.

Because the message of this whole operation there is that this is cruel but effective, and the Kingslanders love Daemon for that. The people of KL don't feel oppressed or mistreated by that kind of thing ... although they very much should in light of how this was portrayed.

There’s been no romance whatsoever in the trailers. And that’s a really weird marketing decision. GOT always tried to tease some kind of romance. I’m surprised they haven’t been teasing Rhaenyra/Criston, but maybe it’s because of how young she looks.

Spoiler

It sounds like Laena and Harwin are going to be introduced just to die 20 minutes later.

Maybe it’s just me, but the idea of 15-year-old Alicent marrying her best friend’s middle-aged father, and Rhaenyra being pursued by her middle-aged uncle is infinitely more creepy to me than Cersei and Jaime ever were. I’m actually kind of dreading it. It makes me wish we were watching an alternate version of this story where adult-Alicent marries Daemon and they go to war with Rhaenyra (which is probably what I would have guessed was the plot based on the trailer if I hadn’t read the books) than what we’re getting.

[Back door hodor]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I think because she feels she has no other choice. He is the king's brother, after all. Before she becomes queen Alicent is in a very precarious position.

I think you could be right about this but I also believe its too early to tell, there could be a genuine attraction there, on Alicents part at least, don't think Daemon is actually interested. Kinda evokes Sansa crushing on Loras in my opinion.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Back door hodor

[SeanF]

58 minutes ago, Chancho said:

looks like rant and rave was send to the shadow realm,

so am i the only one who think that the main actors on the dance, rhaenyra/daemon and aegon/aemond are  absolute terrible people? i wish they don't shy away from make the four of them part of the equation of what is wrong with aristocracy (on roids/dragons)... i wanna see them all suffer, too bad daemon still goes in a blaze of glory.

i hope they don't forget to give some agency to the actual cool characters, like addam, nettles, baela, daeron, rhaenys, corlys and others.

Tyrants and genocidaires can still be sympathetic, if written well enough.

In the main series, every character of note ranges from being pretty ruthless, at one end, to being a sociopathic butcher, at the other.

[RumHam]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What exactly caused that friendship to decline we don't really know ...

I mean...I can take a guess. Having sex with your best friend's dad is a pretty huge betrayal.

[Raksha 2014]

On 8/21/2022 at 10:22 PM, Winterfell is Burning said:

It's weird to be back in Westeros, specially for me, since I dropped the show by the end of s05, seeing the way it was going.

Anyway, this is...fine, I guess. The problem is that there doesn't seem to have any characters that are instantly relatable or likeable, like Ned, Tyrion and Arya (speaking as someone that saw s01 without reading the books), and while the books can be heavy handed at times, this was A LOT. 

I hope that this problem doesn't bite the show in the behind and shut it down before the story is told.

I've read Fire & Blood; so I know what's coming and am willing to stick with the show.  But usually I prefer shows where there are characters I can identify with and/or actually admire.  I really loved Ned Stark from the start of the first book; but I also was fond of Oberyn Martell, Tyrion until the fifth book, and Sansa is the young Stark with whom I most identify.  In the TV version of Game of Thrones, the viewer could easily like Tyrion, Ned, Robb, Jon, Arya and Bran from the first episode on, not to mention the cute wolf cubs.

The only characters in House of the Dragon I find likable and admirable are secondary characters who have barely said a word:  Corlys & Rhaenys Velaryon.  The rest are either eye candy or interesting characters.  I would have liked Queen Aemma if she had lived, poor lady.  

But I am enjoying the TV show and looking forward to more.

 

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s been no romance whatsoever in the trailers. And that’s a really weird marketing decision. GOT always tried to tease some kind of romance. I’m surprised they haven’t been teasing Rhaenyra/Criston, but maybe it’s because of how young she looks.

  Hide contents

It sounds like Laena and Harwin are going to be introduced just to die 20 minutes later.

Maybe it’s just me, but the idea of 15-year-old Alicent marrying her best friend’s middle-aged father, and Rhaenyra being pursued by her middle-aged uncle is infinitely more creepy to me than Cersei and Jaime ever were. I’m actually kind of dreading it. It makes me wish we were watching an alternate version of this story where adult-Alicent marries Daemon and they go to war with Rhaenyra (which is probably what I would have guessed was the plot based on the trailer if I hadn’t read the books) than what we’re getting.

I'm inclined to think that this version of Daemon has no interest in Rhaenyra and won't start courting her until she's widowed.

I wouldn't be surprised if she makes the first move to minimize the uncle-niece squick.

[C.T. Phipps]

47 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I mean...I can take a guess. Having sex with your best friend's dad is a pretty huge betrayal.

Even that isn't probably the breaking point. It'll be when you give birth to a son and then state, "Oh yes, he's the heir now, right?"

 

[Lord of Oldstones]

I see Rhaenyra as more of a Cersei in mothering bastards and being promicious. Cersei views Lannisters better than royal Baratheon.She finds features of Margaery very common like random peasant. She had superiority complex like a true Targaryen. So there's more in common with Rhaenyra in those regards.

Vaemond Velaryon and Kingslanding saga are her imbittered self so lets keep those away.

I see Cersei parallel in Alicent in ambition and having indifferent husband who is indifferent to her children also. Its more telling that in her last hours she remembers Jaehaerys over Viserys or Otto. He was likely a father figure for her. And he confuses her for Saera. Its very likely that pre dawn ancient house like Hightowers would have fair hair like their neighbor Daynes and later Hightowers like Alerei and Lynesse which does make it belivable than GOT lore & show version with brown haired woman having all children & grandchild looking like pure Targaryen.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Lightoftheast

[slant]

Daemon has started giving his series of gifts to Rhaenyra... 

[Happy Ent]

7 hours ago, Maia said:

You are right that there are no weirwoods in the Red Keep and Riverrun in the books - in both cases it is mentioned in the text that the heart trees are oaks and they aren’t carved.

The Godswood of Riverrun does have a Weirwood heart tree (slender, with a sad face – quite like what we see in the current episode.) The wiki credits  [A Game of Thrones, Chapter 71, Catelyn XI] for this.

 

But maybe the best guess for the location of the scene is Storm’s End, not Riverrun (no redwoods, too much deciduous foilage). The distance would fit; Syrax could easily make that trip.

[frenin]

I don't understand the comments that say that Viserys is weak... He doesn't even seem the easily swayed and eager to please book Viserys, and even that one wasn't  truly weak.

This Viserys is able to settle Daemon's and Otto's arguments, is savvy enough to understand when he ought to let Rhaenys's faction vent, defends Daemon from half his council without breaking, tell his council to fuck off when they went too greedy and ditto with Daemon.

He seems a perfetcly capable ruler who knows his own limitations and seeks the support of other more capablle.

[slant]

8 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

It is rather funny:

1. The Tournament

Book Readers: Deaths during tournaments are big deals! They're breaking the rules! The deaths of highly important noble house members is being shrugged off.

Show Viewers: WOOT! That is awesome and metal.

2. The Purge

Show Viewers: Oh my God! That is awful! Daemon is a monster! He's just murdering people left and right.

Book Readers: Flea Bottom is just THAT much of a shithole and the people will love him for this.

3. Otto Hightower

Show Viewers: Oh my God, he's pimping his own daughter!

Book Readers: Well, that's pretty normal in Westeros. Also, yes, he's gross and disgusting.

Lol  Book reader here, wrong on Tourney, both options for The Purge look good, and agreed on the last  

And when it comes to Viserys, he does seem to be trying to please everyone in the council, which is exactly what makes him weak. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The show's decision to make Daemon crave the love and respect of his brother, the decision to give him a vulnerable side that way is a great way to go. And one can only hope he and Rhaenyra will work as a power couple and he is going to be there for his daughters and sons and stepsons as long as they are around. That way he can be a great character.

But the dude George created isn't, really.

That's the thing, the way GRRM describes him is not at all how he comes across in the story. I mean, readers and fans can always debate things, but an author can't be wrong about his own characters. Surely?

[SeanF]

23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's the thing, the way GRRM describes him is not at all how he comes across in the story. I mean, readers and fans can always debate things, but an author can't be wrong about his own characters. Surely?

Sometimes the author and (some of) the readers will perceive a character differently.

I was thinking of that when reading the (uncensored version of) The Three Muskeeteers.  The Musketeers are actually pieces of shit, in my view, but that's not the view of the author.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

I think you could be right about this but I also believe its too early to tell, there could be a genuine attraction there, on Alicents part at least, don't think Daemon is actually interested. Kinda evokes Sansa crushing on Loras in my opinion.

I got the impression Alicent is kind of interested in Viserys. She does inquire about him. Her father ambushes her with his suggestion to visit him, of course.

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s been no romance whatsoever in the trailers. And that’s a really weird marketing decision. GOT always tried to tease some kind of romance. I’m surprised they haven’t been teasing Rhaenyra/Criston, but maybe it’s because of how young she looks.

I really don't remember much of those trailers. But we certainly could have had a trailer tease/revelation that Daemon and Rhaenyra will end up in love and marry and have children. That they do avoid there, and I guess because they don't want to reveal this.

Criston and Rhaenyra could indeed have scenes together.

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

  Reveal hidden contents

It sounds like Laena and Harwin are going to be introduced just to die 20 minutes later.

Don't think it is that bad. Young Laena is going to feature next week, one imagines, when they present her as a potential bride to Viserys.

Spoiler

And supposedly she claims Vhagar after learning that Viserys rejected her. Harwin seems to be getting a big moment at the wedding and we might also see him earlier among Rhaenyra's suitors.

Considering that both Young Rhaenyra and Young Alicent seem to be getting praise for their performances, I think there is a decent enough chance they might go for some flashbacks in season 2.

8 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe it’s just me, but the idea of 15-year-old Alicent marrying her best friend’s middle-aged father, and Rhaenyra being pursued by her middle-aged uncle is infinitely more creepy to me than Cersei and Jaime ever were. I’m actually kind of dreading it. It makes me wish we were watching an alternate version of this story where adult-Alicent marries Daemon and they go to war with Rhaenyra (which is probably what I would have guessed was the plot based on the trailer if I hadn’t read the books) than what we’re getting.

Jaime and Cersei were never creepy for me. They are established as a loving couple and there is no hint that one exploited the other. At least not insofar as the gestation of the relationship is concerned. Cersei certainly uses Jaime for her own ends lots of times later on.

I think there must be some more scenes setting up Alicent-Viserys so that it is not some kind of weirdo semi-arranged match, but something both of them actually want. And Daemon-Rhaenyra don't seem creepy to me at all. They seem to genuinely like each other as people. Daemon isn't some 'creepy uncle' who wants to bang his niece, he cares for her and at this point there is no indication he wants to set aside Rhea to marry her. Could be they never even go there.

But if they go there it most likely won't because he covets the throne (it is already established that his ambition there is very much a desire to be loved and cherished by Viserys in that manner, it is not a desire for political power) or wants to rule through Rhaenyra ... but because they love each other.

Spoiler

The reports indicate more that Daemon is kind of mentor for Rhaenyra in the sense that he shows her that she, as a royal woman, can still enjoy sex and her own sexuality even if she has to marry for dynastic purposes. In the show Rhaenyra is apparently struggling with her role as a royal womb, rejecting suitors left and right because she doesn't want to marry. Their relationship isn't presented as something where the, well, groomed and abused child ends up marrying her abuser ... but they won't have ever a real relationship until both are ready for it. Which will only be after Laena's death.

 

7 hours ago, RumHam said:

I mean...I can take a guess. Having sex with your best friend's dad is a pretty huge betrayal.

I meant more how things go in the book. There they are all friendly enough at the wedding and in the first years thereafter. I'm sure in the show Rhaenyra will feel betrayed by Alicent when she finds out that she has been spending time or even fucking her dad behind her back. But this thing they should be able to overcome.

29 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's the thing, the way GRRM describes him is not at all how he comes across in the story. I mean, readers and fans can always debate things, but an author can't be wrong about his own characters. Surely?

Well, if you mean by 'coming across' that you also don't know what George is talking about (exactly) when he mentions that Daemon is a grey character and does good things in addition to bad things he does I'm with you.

The issue is not mental image of the guy as a person (although that's also pretty vague considering that he is just a historical figure) but his actual actions. There is just not anything good there.

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Sometimes the author and (some of) the readers will perceive a character differently.

I was thinking of that when reading the (uncensored version of) The Three Muskeeteers.  The Musketeers are actually pieces of shit, in my view, but that's not the view of the author.

Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

[Relic]

56 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That's the thing, the way GRRM describes him is not at all how he comes across in the story. I mean, readers and fans can always debate things, but an author can't be wrong about his own characters. Surely?

Fire and Blood has a bunch of unreliable narrators, IIRC?

[Ran]

You can read a lot of things in between the lines that GRRM directly highlights -- the fact that Daemon could be both the best and the worst of men, a hero and a monster, and you never know what you're going to get. And you can see in his choice of how to end his days that there's a regret there too. That line he's alleged to have said, about having lived too long, reads very poignantly to me.

[Lord Varys]

41 minutes ago, Relic said:

Fire and Blood has a bunch of unreliable narrators, IIRC?

Granting that - which events are that might have been misconstrued by historians are there that might Daemon look decent or great?

I just don't see any. At best he is no murderer of close kin prior to the Dance. But that doesn't make him great.

At best one can say he had the potential to be a great man ... but he was too changeable (or mad) for that. He had no patience for actual work, lacked the grace to be a husband to his first wife (clear man-child there - 'the Vale's boring, *haha* 'Bronze Bitch', 'men fucking sheep' - just grow up, man!), started a great conquest only, you know, to lack the patience to see it through ... and then he does nothing exceptional or noteworthy until the Dance. Where his 'genius stratagem' is to sit on his ass for nearly a year to goad the enemy into making a stupid attack. Not sure if those are the markings of a great man.

If George has great things he may have done in his head then he should have written some of those down. Certainly Gyldayn would have gladly recorded some great feat of Daemon's if it was worthy to be remembered by historians.