spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[zajaz]

I thought that Westeros was inspired by the whole War of the Roses, which unless you are talking about Stoke Field, actually took place during the last years of (English) Late Middle Ages. Henry of Richmond's victory over Richard of Gloucester in Bosworth is considered by some historians as the end of the Middle Ages in England.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zajaz

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

6 minutes ago, zajaz said:

I thought that Westeros was inspired by the whole War of the Roses, which unless you are talking about Stoke Field, actually took place during the last years of (English) Late Middle Ages. Henry of Richmond's victory over Richard of Gloucester in Bosworth is considered by some historias as the end of the Middle Ages in England.

ASOIAF in particular was inspired by the War of the Roses. The Dance of the Dragons was inspired  more by the Anarchy.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[zajaz]

6 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

ASOIAF in particular was inspired by the War of the Roses. The Dance of the Dragons was inspired  more by the Anarchy.

Neither of which is happened during the (English) Renaissance.

Edited August 26, 2022 by zajaz

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, zajaz said:

I do wonder how people overall might react to the end of the Dance. We saw how many were upset by Daenerys' fate, some by the potential sexist implications of having her go Mad Queen only to die at the hands of Jon. Some even said that having the only two female monarchs seated on the Iron Throne be trigger-happy murderers was a little problematic. Imagine when they watch what becomes of Alicent and Rhaenyra.

How got ended ruined it for me, I can’t do re-watches and have zero intrest in it, to some extent it even soured my deep appreciation of the book series.

I dare watch hotd partly because the end is already written and so is somewhat safe from swerving off the road like got did. Knowing the written material on the dance, even if it was poorly done I know what to expect.

[C.T. Phipps]

26 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Neither of which is happened during the (English) Renaissance.

Aegon the Unworthy and Maegor both being inspired by Henry the Eighth.

Which I mentioned.

Martin draws far-far heavier from the latter absolute monarch periods of English history than he does from the Anarchy or War of the Roses.

The Anarchy/Dance of the Dragons also appears to have the same structure as centuries later during the War of Five Kings.

Edited August 26, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[zajaz]

5 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Martin draws far-far heavier from the latter absolute monarch periods of English history than he does from the Anarchy or War of the Roses.

The Anarchy/Dance of the Dragons also appears to have the same structure as centuries later during the War of Five Kings.

Could you give me some examples? I'm not really well-versed in post-War of the Roses / Tudor period England.

[The Bard of Banefort]

37 minutes ago, zajaz said:

Could you give me some examples? I'm not really well-versed in post-War of the Roses / Tudor period England.

Tyrion was inspired by Richard III, who was vilified after the Tudor ascension (The Bloody Hand is a riff on Shakespeare).

Henry Tudor only won because Richard turned on his brother’s son (the rightful king), splitting their forces. The son’s supporters eventually allied with Henry to defeat Richard. Joffrey only won the Battle of the Blackwater because Stannis and Renly turned against each other, and Renly’s forces decided to side with the Lannisters.

The aforementioned son (Edward) was imprisoned with his brother by Richard III in the Tower of London and never seen again. They’re known as the “princes in the tower.” Bran and Rickon, the princes of Winterfell, were imprisoned by Theon and have yet to be seen again.

Henry VII grew up in exile and returned to take back the throne. He, like Daenerys, was the last of his line. (There’s also a parallel between him and Viserys II, in that he was a serious and frugal king whose rash and lecherous son undid most of his accomplishments).

Margaret Beaufort (Henry’s mother) gave birth to him when she was only 13 or so. This is what GRRM usually cites when asked about child brides.

The final battle was fought at the Battle of Bosworth (reminiscent of the Battle of the Redgrass Field).

There are more that I’m forgetting.

 

Something that I only recently learned about was St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, which is quite reminiscent of the Red Wedding. Long story short, French King Charles IX, who was Catholic, arranged a marriage between his sister and a Protestant, then was persuaded to have a bunch of Protestant/Huguenot leaders killed while they were still in Paris afterwards. It wasn’t quite as maniacally pre-planned, since Charles apparently hadn’t intended for any civilians to be hurt and tried to stop the massacre once it spread to the masses, but he was ineffectual and thousands of people died. (Interestingly, I grew up not very far from where the Huguenots eventually settled in the US).

[zajaz]

32 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Tyrion was inspired by Richard III, who was vilified after the Tudor ascension (The Bloody Hand is a riff on Shakespeare).

Henry Tudor only won because Richard turned on his brother’s son (the rightful king), splitting their forces. The son’s supporters eventually allied with Henry to defeat Richard. Joffrey only won the Battle of the Blackwater because Stannis and Renly turned against each other, and Renly’s forces decided to side with the Lannisters.

The aforementioned son (Edward) was imprisoned with his brother by Richard III in the Tower of London and never seen again. They’re known as the “princes in the tower.” Bran and Rickon, the princes of Winterfell, were imprisoned by Theon and have yet to be seen again.

Henry VII grew up in exile and returned to take back the throne. He, like Daenerys, was the last of his line. (There’s also a parallel between him and Viserys II, in that he was a serious and frugal king whose rash and lecherous son undid most of his accomplishments).

Margaret Beaufort (Henry’s mother) gave birth to him when she was only 13 or so. This is what GRRM usually cites when asked about child brides.

The final battle was fought at the Battle of Bosworth (reminiscent of the Battle of the Redgrass Field).

There are more that I’m forgetting.

 

Something that I only recently learned about was St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, which is quite reminiscent of the Red Wedding. Long story short, French King Charles IX, who was Catholic, arranged a marriage between his sister and a Protestant, then was persuaded to have a bunch of Protestant/Huguenot leaders killed while they were still in Paris afterwards. It wasn’t quite as maniacally pre-planned, since Charles apparently hadn’t intended for any civilians to be hurt and tried to stop the massacre once it spread to the masses, but he was ineffectual and thousands of people died. (Interestingly, I grew up not very far from where the Huguenots eventually settled in the US).

I was actually talking about the whole Martin draws far-far heavier from the latter absolute monarch periods of English history than he does from the Anarchy or War of the Roses claim. The War of the Roses is one of the topics I'm happy to say I actually know a little about.

In fact, I would argue that the whole meme about how Stark = York, and Lannister = Lancaster is just going by how similar the names sound. To me, the House of York is House Baratheon (Robert is Edward IV, Stannis is Richard III, and Renly is George, Duke of Clarence), while the House of Lancaster is House Targaryen at the end of the third century AC (Aerys is Henry VI, Rhaegar is Edward of Westminster, with perhaps a little bit of Henry and Edmund Beaufort, Dukes of Somerset). The Trident is a mix between Towton and Tewksbury. Young Griff is Henry Tudor (and if he is a Blackfyre, then his mother would be Margaret Beaufort), while Jon Connington is Jasper Tudor.

Also Joffrey could be seen as a mix between Edward of Westminster and Edward V, Tommen could be Prince Richard, Duke of York. Stannis declaring both of them bastards only after Robert dies is almost a copy-paste of what Richard III did when he became Lord Protector. In real life, though, they probably weren't (although we can't say for sure), while in ASoIaF they truly had no claim to the throne.

On the other hand, you could say that Robert's Rebellion is actually the Iliad. With Rhaegar as Hector and Paris, Gregor as Ajax the Lesser and Neoptolemus, Elia as Andromache and Cassandra, Rhaenys as Polyxena, Lyanna as Helen, Robert as Menelaus and Achilles, Aegon as Astyanax, Pycelle as Sinon, Jaime as Neoptolemus, Aerys as an evil Priam, etc.

Just my two cents.

Edited August 27, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

It's more the context of the changes of rule and the relationship of monarch to vassals that was transitional from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance period. One of the fascinating transitions from this period is the fact that monarchs increasingly became more powerful as well as the monarchy centralized while the feudal lords control gradually weakened.

This was also accompanied by the weakening of the religious hegemony of the period with the Catholic Church's power weakened and divided by the introduction of variant faiths (Protestants in this case).

One of the big elements of Martin's world is the monarchy is far more powerful than the High Middle Ages in part due to the incredibly weak faith in the story. Maegor the Cruel basically did Henry the VIII's crushing of the Catholic Church centuries earlier with the elimination of the faith's military power and bringing it to heel socially.

While still ruling over powerful noble houses, the fact is that there's no Parliament or Magna Carta in Wetseros which you'd think would make it an older-style government but the type of monarchy in Westeros more resembles the Renassiance concentration of power.

[zajaz]

The problem is that, at the same time, the nobles have way more military power than they had during, say, the height of Henry VIII's reign. In fact, I seem to recall it was Henry VII the one who began the whole process of weakening the nobility (though I could be wrong, I'm more of WotR type of enthusiast). A major noble like Robb marching to the capital with a army of thousands with hostile intentions would not have been possible, I feel, during the mid 16th century, at least not in England.

Edited August 27, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

10 minutes ago, zajaz said:

The problem is that, at the same time, the nobles have way more military power than they had during, say, the height of Henry VIII's reign. In fact, I seem to recall it was Henry VII the one who began the whole process of weakening the nobility (though I could be wrong, I'm more of WotR type of enthusiast). A major noble like Robb marching to the capital with a army of thousands with hostile intentions would not have been possible, I feel, during the mid 16th century, at least not in England.

Yes and no, after all, Charles I is the first English monarch to be beheaded by a noble revolt and that happened in the mid point of the 16th century. Albeit, Stannis the most like Cromwell. Later, we have the invasion of England by the Scotts under Prince Charles.

Which while I doubt that George was drawing from it, kind of reminds me of the Bonnie Prince.

Robb and company come within inches of victory with the underestimated Northern/Scottish army only to have a sudden horrific reversal that ends in a total crushing of the North.

That and George Martin loves Outlander.

 

Edited August 27, 2022 by C.T. Phipps

[zajaz]

I feel the power Charles I had in the mid 17th century is not quite equal to that of Henry VIII a century before. Again, I don't much of Early Modern Period England, but, by all means, I feel that the closest the Kingdom of England came to having an absolute monarch was Henry VIII. Likewise, I feel the Iron Throne's judicial power is oddly decentralized; there are no royal sheriffs or justices, but rather each lord holds power of the pit and gallows. There appears to be few (if not no) agents of the King that take care of how justice and trials should procede in other parts of the Seven Kingdoms. With that being said, I'll admit ignorance of these matters, and subscribe in silence to better informed people.

Edited August 27, 2022 by zajaz

[C.T. Phipps]

Well you're correct in several areas and I may well be reaching. Though it was Charles' attempts to rule as an absolute monarch with no checks on his power that got him killed.

[zajaz]

16 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Well you're correct in several areas and I may well be reaching. Though it was Charles' attempts to rule as an absolute monarch with no checks on his power that got him killed.

Oh, yeah, quite true, quite true. It's funny that when some (not all) states and / or people try to go 'next level authoritarian' some people just say: 'Nah, that's enough, mate. You are overreaching yourself', despite not exactly being a stronghold of democracy to start with.

[Raksha 2014]

17 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Some acting thoughts:

Well generally I think everyone did an okay job with the standouts being Paddy Considine who plays a nuanced and likable guy who is stuck with a job he is manifestly unqualified for but is managing to not fuck it up nearly as much as most kings by simply avoiding getting into any wars or major conflicts. However, the standout performance of the episode is definitely the throne room scene where he completely loses his shit. The thing is, we KNOW that he's being manipulated into all of this by his creepy advisor but it's still nice to see him stand up for himself.

Daemon Targaryen as Matt Smith feels very much like someone created a character deliberately to be a likable bad boy who fills the Jaime Lannister and Tyrion role. The thing is that there's a lot of ways they can play it as either a villain or antihero and Matt Smith manages to thread the needle of him having done some reprehensible shit on screen but to make him enough of a guy who loves his family that you sympathize with him. Oddly, I don't have a problem with the dragons (the fact they have breathing movements is a major plus for me) but I do think his armor looked fucking ridiculous.

Everyone else is...fine.

The teenage girls seem likeable enough but there's not enough contrast between them versus, say, Arya and Sansa. Both of the are highborn ladies even if one is more bookish and the other is a dragonriding badass in the making. Rhys Ifans' Ser Otto Hightower is probably the best actor after Paddy and Matt Smith but he is pretty understated so far with only the fact he's willing to pimp his own daughter giving a sense of just how skeevy he really is.

I'm a little disappointed that Sonoya Mizuno's Mysaria doesn't get more than a couple of scenes where she's mostly just saying generic dialogue (which is not normally how I'd catalog soliciting a threesome). I'd like to know more about her and Daemon's relationship. She seems to be the one who is genuinely happy Daemon's nephew died at the party, which he is having none of, but not much else. Shae got a massive upgrade in character in the show and I hope the same would be here.

Like I said there's some good acting here but there's not enough character beats so far to really be quite there up with GOT's pilot. You fell in love with virtually everyone in the first episode of GOT from Tyrion to Arya to even Catelyn. So that's a bit disappointing but it's still much-much-much better than the latter seasons.

I consider Paddy Considine the MVP actor for the first episode, by far.  He anchors it, nails the role of the man-who-would-really-rather-not-be-king-but-who-is-stuck-with-the-job-and-is-trying-hard-to-do-it-right, while losing half of his family (beloved wife, newborn son, brother he has to exile because the loudmouth can't keep his mouth shut).  It's not a flashy role, but it's so important; and Considine is totally believable and sympathetic even when he is complicit in letting his queen die horribly without even the dignity of giving her a warning.  And yes, it was great to see Viserys blow off some steam and tell the Small Council to shut up about the succession, considering he'd just lost his wife and child and later give Daemon a deserved set-down (manipulated or not) for partying in the brothel while Viserys was mourning that terrible loss.

I have the impression that Daemon likes Rhaenyra both as his niece and as a potential future wife (he's definitely hoping that his current wife dies) - he's both fond of her as an uncle and more and more as a man who goes for any attractive female and also as a man lured by power.  This is not as icky as it sounds because in this culture, older men marry young women/girls all the time; and Targaryens marry their close relatives, i.e. sisters, first cousins, so an uncle is not much of a stretch.  

I do get the feeling that the one person in the world who Daemon would never, ever betray, is Viserys.

 

 

[Lady_Qohor]

4 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I have the impression that Daemon likes Rhaenyra both as his niece and as a potential future wife (he's definitely hoping that his current wife dies) - he's both fond of her as an uncle and more and more as a man who goes for any attractive female and also as a man lured by power.  This is not as icky as it sounds because in this culture, older men marry young women/girls all the time; and Targaryens marry their close relatives, i.e. sisters, first cousins, so an uncle is not much of a stretch. 

I mean...just because something happens all the time, does not mean its not icky.

[butterweedstrover]

One thing I find funny is how much the showrunners talk about making the world feel opulent and prosperous. 

The sets were dark and partially ruined, the characters were on edge and unhappy, the tourney didn't show a boisterous bunch of knights who know nothing of warfare but hardened killers who smash skulls and fight dirty.  

 

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I felt like the throne room was better illuminated on GoT. A lot more light coming in.

[C.T. Phipps]

1 hour ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I mean...just because something happens all the time, does not mean its not icky.

I had this comment regarding Daenerys and Jon. "Guys, we really SHOULDN'T be shipping them."

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

I do get the feeling that the one person in the world who Daemon would never, ever betray, is Viserys.

Sure enough. One also can conclude that from the book in light of the fact that Daemon never rebelled against Viserys - and one imagines that a swift coup supported by the dragons Caraxes and Meleys in 105 AC could have quickly ended the reign of Viserys I, replacing him with King Daemon I recently wed to Laena Velaryon.

However, I don't think Viserys doesn't want to be king. If that were the case he could have refused the crown at the Great Council, he could have not attended it at all, refusing to put forth his claim. He didn't do that.

I'm sure he knows he isn't the greatest of kings ... but I think he wants to be king and he thinks he does a decent enough job. Nothing stellar, but continuing the good work of his grandfather.

And one sees how relatively good he is at managing things when he shuts down Otto's silly talk about cutting out Baratheon tongues. I'm sure he will make some crucial mistakes later on,

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I had this comment regarding Daenerys and Jon. "Guys, we really SHOULDN'T be shipping them."

That is kind of weird. Not only are avuncular relationships not actually viewed as incest in a legal sense in many countries ... but Jon and Dany basically are like those many real world (half-) sibling incest couples who fall for each other while not knowing they are closely related. Turning that into some kind of moral failure or bad thing is actually pretty fucked up.

Both parties to have the right to be weirded out by their close kinship once they find it out ... but allowing that kind of thing to destroy or undermine a loving relationship isn't very mature, either. Especially in real life. Which is why I very much hope that the books don't go with the 'Oh, no, Daenerys is my aunt, I must no longer love her because I'm an incest freak when I give in to my desire!' routine there.