spoilers [Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion

[The Bard of Banefort]

I think the worst dialogue exchange from the first episode was the conversation about Daemon’s wife at the council meeting. There was really no reason for Otto to keep talking about Rhea, especially considering how curt he was with Daemon during every other exchange. It felt like they were dragging out the conversation long enough for Daemon to say all of his awful remarks from the books and then insult Otto’s wife. I remember thinking it stuck out when I watched the episode.

The other line that struck me as odd was when Baratheon called Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was. Rhaenys looked insulted, and it seemed to me like he was taking the piss out of her, but then Otto made it sound like he was actually making a dig at Viserys, not Rhaenys.

[C.T. Phipps]

26 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the worst dialogue exchange from the first episode was the conversation about Daemon’s wife at the council meeting. There was really no reason for Otto to keep talking about Rhea, especially considering how curt he was with Daemon during every other exchange. It felt like they were dragging out the conversation long enough for Daemon to say all of his awful remarks from the books and then insult Otto’s wife. I remember thinking it stuck out when I watched the episode.

The other line that struck me as odd was when Baratheon called Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was. Rhaenys looked insulted, and it seemed to me like he was taking the piss out of her, but then Otto made it sound like he was actually making a dig at Viserys, not Rhaenys.

Actually I think that one works in retrospect as it's setting up Otto wants Daemon out of King's Landing and is using every possible excuse possible.

[zajaz]

I think Mysaria's 'You are Daemon Targaryen, rider of Caraxes, wielder of Dark Sister' is worse, actually. Those lines almost made me cringe a little. Talk about clumsy exposition.

Edited August 28, 2022 by zajaz

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think the worst dialogue exchange from the first episode was the conversation about Daemon’s wife at the council meeting. There was really no reason for Otto to keep talking about Rhea, especially considering how curt he was with Daemon during every other exchange. It felt like they were dragging out the conversation long enough for Daemon to say all of his awful remarks from the books and then insult Otto’s wife. I remember thinking it stuck out when I watched the episode.

Well, it shows how Otto basically grasps every straw to get rid of Daemon. The point there is to get him to return to Runestone. The odd thing there, however, is that he presumes to speak as if he was Daemon's father or Viserys himself. Only Daemon's father or king could command him to live with his wife or sleep with her.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The other line that struck me as odd was when Baratheon called Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was. Rhaenys looked insulted, and it seemed to me like he was taking the piss out of her, but then Otto made it sound like he was actually making a dig at Viserys, not Rhaenys.

Actually, I think you are mistaken there. I think Rhaenys was kind of pleased that Boremund was giving her her due there, although she tried to play it down. Both Rhaenys and Corlys later hide their smirks behind their hands.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it shows how Otto basically grasps every straw to get rid of Daemon. The point there is to get him to return to Runestone. The odd thing there, however, is that he presumes to speak as if he was Daemon's father or Viserys himself. Only Daemon's father or king could command him to live with his wife or sleep with her.

Actually, I think you are mistaken there. I think Rhaenys was kind of pleased that Boremund was giving her her due there, although she tried to play it down. Both Rhaenys and Corlys later hide their smirks behind their hands.

 

Maybe. Initially I thought she looked stunned. Then again, she also looked like she was smiling at Aemma’s funeral, and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the intention.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe. Initially I thought she looked stunned. Then again, she also looked like she was smiling at Aemma’s funeral, and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t the intention.

Who knows? She may have already thought about how her daughter would replace Aemma as queen. These people may be cousins, but they are not close friends. And I doubt that Aemma and Rhaenys were ever besties, especially not after Aemma became queen.

No idea how they play it in the next episode, but I hope they touch upon the dragon in the room, namely, address the question why Rhaenys and Viserys didn't marry each other back in the day. Could very well be that they mention that this match was on the table back then ... but Rhaenys spurned Viserys and decided to go for Corlys (George unfortunately never touches upon this, but it is something they show could address).

[Raksha 2014]

12 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

I mean...just because something happens all the time, does not mean its not icky.

 

I meant not icky in terms of how marriages between teenaged (and sometimes younger) girls, young women, and older men are arranged among the lords of Westeros and how the people of Westeros, including the bridegrooms and brides themselves view the practice, not how we readers and TV watchers, as modern and better educated people, view a 14-17-year-old girl marrying some man 20 years or more her senior because her father has negotiated a deal.  (or even a 16-year-old marrying in accordance with her father's wishes at all).  But most lords and nobles' daughters in Westeros expect to have their marriages decided by their fathers; if they are lucky; they will have indulgent fathers who will take their happiness and well-being into consideration.

There are also instances where the Westerosi practice of wedding girls and young women to older men turns tragic or is a mesalliance from the beginning:  Lord Hoster Tully had a potentially ruined daughter, Lysa, and used her tragedy to seal a military alliance by marrying her to a man 30 years older who wanted a fertile bride who didn't care that she had been made pregnant - thus breaking Lysa's heart again after her forcibly aborted pregnancy and setting up years of her mental deterioration and some of the seeds of the War of the Five Kings.  Sansa Stark, a 12-year-old (in the books) hostage in King Joffrey's court, is forced to marry his uncle, Tyrion Lannister, who, though he is less cruel than most of his relatives, still wants her mainly for her claim to Winterfell and her beauty; the fact that Sansa hates the idea of marrying any of the Lannisters is not taken into consideration; patriarch Tywin Lannister expects his son to sire a child on the barely pubescent bride as soon as possible.  (thankfully for Sansa's health and what remains of Tyrion's self-respect, he does not force Sansa to consummate the marriage, as we know). 

The most ludicrous example of an arranged marriage between a younger female and an older male occurs in The Clash of Kings, when the infant orphan Ermesande Hayford, last of House Hayford, is married to 13-year-old Tyrek Lannister, Tywin's nephew; so that the Lannisters can claim Hayford.  There is no question of consummation anytime soon; the bridegroom is teased by his fellow squires who call him "Wetnurse"; the bride is a baby.  When poor Tyrek disappears and is presumed dead, Tyrion thinks that little Lady Ermesande is the  first bride in the history of the Seven Kingdoms to be widowed before she is weaned.  

I'm not going to go into the marriages of Ramsay Bolton because both of them (the first one not fitting my criteria of girl/young woman to older man) are horrendous and depressing to discuss.  Both brides were forced, as we know from the books.  

I can't remember from Fire & Blood whether Rhaenyra willingly wed her first husband.  She should have let Daemon father her first batch of sons; at least they would have looked Targaryen and there would have been no nasty rumors.  

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I don’t know how this never occurred to me before, but if they go through with the Corlys show, we probably will meet Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Aemon and Jocelyn, Baelon, etc. Sadly, Rhaena will probably be gone by then though.

[teej6]

Did anyone see the similarity in Viserys “Promise me Rhaenyra, promise me” and Lyanna’s “Promise me Ned, promise me”? Was it just a coincidence or intentional? 

[Ran]

Nice catch. I would not be surprised. 

[Farerb]

59 minutes ago, teej6 said:

Did anyone see the similarity in Viserys “Promise me Rhaenyra, promise me” and Lyanna’s “Promise me Ned, promise me”? Was it just a coincidence or intentional? 

Might be intentional, but I saw people suggest that perhaps Rhaegar told Lyanna and she told Ned, which doesn't align with Ned being dismissive of The Others in both the book and the show.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know how this never occurred to me before, but if they go through with the Corlys show, we probably will meet Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Aemon and Jocelyn, Baelon, etc. Sadly, Rhaena will probably be gone by then though.

The big problem with a Corys show is that almost none of it would happen in Westeros.

[SeanF]

5 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

I meant not icky in terms of how marriages between teenaged (and sometimes younger) girls, young women, and older men are arranged among the lords of Westeros and how the people of Westeros, including the bridegrooms and brides themselves view the practice, not how we readers and TV watchers, as modern and better educated people, view a 14-17-year-old girl marrying some man 20 years or more her senior because her father has negotiated a deal.  (or even a 16-year-old marrying in accordance with her father's wishes at all).  But most lords and nobles' daughters in Westeros expect to have their marriages decided by their fathers; if they are lucky; they will have indulgent fathers who will take their happiness and well-being into consideration.

There are also instances where the Westerosi practice of wedding girls and young women to older men turns tragic or is a mesalliance from the beginning:  Lord Hoster Tully had a potentially ruined daughter, Lysa, and used her tragedy to seal a military alliance by marrying her to a man 30 years older who wanted a fertile bride who didn't care that she had been made pregnant - thus breaking Lysa's heart again after her forcibly aborted pregnancy and setting up years of her mental deterioration and some of the seeds of the War of the Five Kings.  Sansa Stark, a 12-year-old (in the books) hostage in King Joffrey's court, is forced to marry his uncle, Tyrion Lannister, who, though he is less cruel than most of his relatives, still wants her mainly for her claim to Winterfell and her beauty; the fact that Sansa hates the idea of marrying any of the Lannisters is not taken into consideration; patriarch Tywin Lannister expects his son to sire a child on the barely pubescent bride as soon as possible.  (thankfully for Sansa's health and what remains of Tyrion's self-respect, he does not force Sansa to consummate the marriage, as we know). 

The most ludicrous example of an arranged marriage between a younger female and an older male occurs in The Clash of Kings, when the infant orphan Ermesande Hayford, last of House Hayford, is married to 13-year-old Tyrek Lannister, Tywin's nephew; so that the Lannisters can claim Hayford.  There is no question of consummation anytime soon; the bridegroom is teased by his fellow squires who call him "Wetnurse"; the bride is a baby.  When poor Tyrek disappears and is presumed dead, Tyrion thinks that little Lady Ermesande is the  first bride in the history of the Seven Kingdoms to be widowed before she is weaned.  

I'm not going to go into the marriages of Ramsay Bolton because both of them (the first one not fitting my criteria of girl/young woman to older man) are horrendous and depressing to discuss.  Both brides were forced, as we know from the books.  

I can't remember from Fire & Blood whether Rhaenyra willingly wed her first husband.  She should have let Daemon father her first batch of sons; at least they would have looked Targaryen and there would have been no nasty rumors.  

 

Then, there are the girls who are lucky enough to marry Walder Frey.

He had some nerve offering marriage to Arianne Martell.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Wikipedia says that the episode had 2.17 million viewers. I assume they mean cable only?

[Ran]

16 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wikipedia says that the episode had 2.17 million viewers. I assume they mean cable only?

That's households, maybe. It had 9.9 million viewers on the night per other reporting.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I don’t know how this never occurred to me before, but if they go through with the Corlys show, we probably will meet Jaehaerys, Alysanne, Aemon and Jocelyn, Baelon, etc. Sadly, Rhaena will probably be gone by then though.

If they do such a show and if it involves scenes at court/in Westeros (as it should) then Bruno Heller would be, well, ill-advised to not allow Queen Rhaena a guest appearance. But I imagine such a show is not going to spend much time at court or in Westeros.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, teej6 said:

Did anyone see the similarity in Viserys “Promise me Rhaenyra, promise me” and Lyanna’s “Promise me Ned, promise me”? Was it just a coincidence or intentional? 

Didn't catch that - but there are quite a few allusions and little bookish tidbits. I think it might make sense to make a thread to allude to stuff like that.

Thinking about the kind of weird way the Great Council introduced Rhaenys vs. Viserys (eldest descendant vs. eldest male descendant rather than going by descendant of the eldest son vs. eldest son of the younger son) it struck me that this is actually foreshadowing for Rhaenyra vs. Aegon II - the eldest child vs. the eldest son.

[Daeron the Daring]

Getting hyped up for the next episode. Hope they don't rush this too much and let relationships flesh out. Not sure if we'll see the Vale and Rhea Royce, but I expect the episode to focus on Daemon and Rhaenyra mostly. There's not much to deal with at court, just Criston's relationship with Rhaenyra, Viserys-Alicent match getting its foundations completed, and Rhaenyra dealing with the weight of being the heir. 

Altho thinking about it, not sure how can Daemon's story progress if Corlys and Laena don't get rejected by Viserys. I guess that could happen without the bethrotal/marriage of Alicent to Viserys.

[cock_merchant]

I hope Mushroom, the fool will be featured in the series. 

[Ran]

I asked Ryan about whether there would be nods to the chroniclers, Mushroom included, and he said yes and didn't elaborate. Orwyle has been cast, but no Eustace or Mushroom are named. That said, there is someone in episode 5 who keeps showing up in frame during the feast scene who might possibly be a nod to one of the chroniclers. We'll have to see what follows in the rest of the season if he shows up again or it's just coincidence.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Ran