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[Spoilers] Episode 101 Discussion


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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

For me, it is mostly the apparent absence of rules. So you joust and then, when something goes bad for you and you get angry you butcher the opponent? That's just weird as hell.

Yes, tournament fighting certainly had rules.  It was dangerous (the melee was usually the most dangerous part ) and people died or suffered broken bones, but killing your opponent was not meant to be the objective. Hacking at horses, or butchering grounded opponents would get you disqualified.  There would often be a jury of ladies to determine who had won on points, or to disqualify knights who had fought dishonourably.

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23 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That still doesn't make much sense in-universe, though.

I mean, it makes perfect sense. It's a violent and brutal sport for a violence loving populace.

I think a lot of people are applying their romanticized versions of tournaments and chivalry to Westeros.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yes, tournament fighting certainly had rules.  It was dangerous (the melee was usually the most dangerous part ) and people died or suffered broken bones, but killing your opponent was not meant to be the objective. Hacking at horses, or butchering grounded opponents would get you disqualified.  There would often be a jury of ladies to determine who had won on points, or to disqualify knights who had fought dishonourably.

Yes, the thing I've issue with is not so much Daemon-Criston (although there it is also kind of presumptuous to assume Cole would dismount just because Daemon couldn't stay in the saddle - he could have dismounted in a chivalric gesture, though, but not because Daemon 'wanted to continue the fight on foot') but the wanton killings later on. There is no point to this, since it is clearly not a melee and they are not there to kill each other.

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Unfortunately, I'm more and more convinced that it has been a retcon since at least 1998.

Well, since it involves the name of the entire series chances that this is a retcon are about zero. The song of ice and fire might first be mentioned in ACoK, but it is the title of the series since AGoT, so the concept of what that meant would have gestated during the writing process of the first book and, presumably, when George first came up with the Targaryen backstory, i.e. Aegon's Conquest, their dragons, and the characters of Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow, respectively.

The idea that the original meaning of this eventually changed during the writing process seems very unlikely to me. Even more so while there is no actual evidence for such speculation.

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31 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

That still doesn't make much sense in-universe, though.

 I think it does, Maekar killed Baelor during a tourney and I believe a few others died brutally in that tourney. 

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11 hours ago, Hoffa said:

Agree! Cant wait to see all the white people living in Wakanda in the next Black Panther!

I should also feel comfortable and accepted as a white, correct?

 

Not with that attitude you won't and can't. But that's on YOUR attitude, dood. :whip:

Edited by Zorral
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15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, since it involves the name of the entire series chances that this is a retcon are about zero. The song of ice and fire might first be mentioned in ACoK, but it is the title of the series since AGoT, so the concept of what that meant would have gestated during the writing process of the first book and, presumably, when George first came up with the Targaryen backstory, i.e. Aegon's Conquest, their dragons, and the characters of Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow, respectively.

The idea that the original meaning of this eventually changed during the writing process seems very unlikely to me. Even more so while there is no actual evidence for such speculation.

I mean, one could make an argument that George simply thought that it was a cool name for the series but didn't really know what to do with it, so he's throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. At the end of the day there is really no point in speculating about it, since he is the only one who knows the truth.

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Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I mean, one could make an argument that George simply thought that it was a cool name for the series but didn't really know what to do with it, so he's throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. At the end of the day there is really no point in speculating about it, since he is the only one who knows the truth.

Weird fact: I had a friend who had the theory Aegon was invading Westeros to save it from the Others since "The World of Ice and Fire" so I think that it was probably in GRRM's mind since then.

 

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7 minutes ago, Crona said:

 I think it does, Maekar killed Baelor during a tourney and I believe a few others died brutally in that tourney. 

Supposedly the Tourneys had rules against killing according to some comments here, but we don’t really see any spelled out in the pilot except the inferred “Do you yield?… (or must I butcher you)” from Criston Cole to Daemon Targaryen. I would assume some simply refused to yield! 
 

that being said, Martin at some point in his many q&as said the melee for example in Westeros was a battle with blunted weapons… usually, in the early days. So there’s high chance of them taking the idea and running with it. You don’t carry real weapons in a mock battle without expecting some butchery.
 

But I’m no expert in Westeros so there’s that. I personally loved Rheany’s explanations to Corlys and perfect set up for a bloody aftermath later in the series: young knights were prepped for war, yet nowhere to show off their murdering skills.

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All medieval contact sports were brutal.  People got killed in football matches, which involved punching, gouging and kicking. .  But (unlike some gladiatorial contests, say) the aim was rarely to kill members of the other side.  It was incidental to the violence.  So was it with tournament fighting.

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3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Given what a viper's pit the court of KL is, it's completely logical that those who want to be part of it need balls.

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This was great first ep. I liked the fact that they set up the politics and I think most folks that didn't read the book will be surprised how arcs will develop. I was also pleased they brought in the "he-said, she-said"  element of the book via Otto's story about Daemon. I wil keep liking the show if they leave some things unanswered to keep us intrigued. 

SPOILER: I was very pleased with Visery's revealing that Aegon conquered westeros to unite them to fight the long night. I do think that this specific line is set up for the books and not so much referring the show GOT since winning that battle didn't require the entire realm lol. They way Viserys revealed the "song of ice and fire" dream seems to be referring to a much larger, scarier event that will have to become the one reason why Targaryens matter to the entire story rather than keeping or winning the throne for power sake. If hope this show continues to give us some teasers or set up for what's to come in the books and doesn't try too hard to correct the show.

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