Jump to content

Ser Criston Cole, coin crest roles, secret in colors, enter cross loci


Seams

Recommended Posts

Criston Cole is the Kingmaker. I believe there are other kingmakers (and wannabee kingmakers) in the history of Westeros and that anagrams of Ser Criston's name can help us to spot them. 

I took another look at Ser Criston Cole to see if the "secret in colors" anagram could help to sort out the symbolism behind the Greens and the Blacks. But I decided to look at the other possible anagrams as well, and came to a new insight about "coin crest roles" that could be very helpful in the larger symbolism scheme. 

If "coin crest roles" is a deliberate hint for us, I was thinking this might explain why there are coins on the sigil of House Payne. 

Quote

"Are purple, gold, and white the colors of House Payne, Podrick?" she asked him politely.

"No. I mean, yes." He blushed. "The colors. Our arms are purple and white chequy, my lady. With gold coins. In the checks. Purple and white. Both." He studied her feet.

"There's a tale behind those coins," said Tyrion. "No doubt Pod will confide it to your toes one day. Just now we are expected at the Queen's Ballroom, however. Shall we?"

ASoS, Sansa IV

Is House Payne the only house with coins in its sigil? 

Here's what I'm thinking. Half-baked, but helping to sort out some symbols that had been puzzling me.

We know that GRRM has used a lot of game metaphors in the books, and this is a reason that the first book is called The Game of Thrones

One game that I haven't seen clearly played is checkers. But I suspected there was a wordplay connection between checkers, the "chequy" lion sigil (House Osgrey) and the Chequy Water as well as cheeks.

Contemplating the "coin crest" anagram led me to realize that House Payne has something of a checkerboard sigil, with gold coins instead of checkers. This makes perfect sense to me as a metaphor for a game played by a kingmaker: coins usually feature pictures of monarchs and sigils. In checkers, if you survive a trip across the board, you can say, "King me" and acquire greater power in the game. 

So look to Ser Ilyn and Podrick to function as kingmakers.

I have strongly suspected that Littlefinger is also a kingmaker. If the "coin crest" is a hint for us, then his longtime service as the Master of Coin probably confirms that he is a checker-playing kingmaker. By this logic, Tyrion would also be a kingmaker because he also served as Master of Coin. (I suspect that Tyrion is a master of all games, and this may be his destiny in the series.) Perhaps Penny, whose name is a coin name, is also a kingmaker. (There could be Payne / a penny wordplay.) 

This is part of the theory that needs more work, probably. 

Because of the wordplay on checkers, chequy and cheek, I think characters with distinctive cheeks may also be in this exclusive group of kingmakers. I'm thinking Brienne and The Hound, although we also see Ser Duncan the Tall cut his own cheek in The Sworn Sword

As I've stated elsewhere in the forum, I also believe that GRRM has a system of linked body parts and fruits: eyes / grapes, lemons / teeth, melons / heads, oranges / feet, etc. Cheeks are linked to peaches. 

So Renly offering Stannis a peach is a kingmaker gesture. Renly also tried to get Robert to marry Margaery but then Renly married her. Margaery is from the Reach and peaches come from the Reach. 

This doesn't quite work with Robert bringing peaches from the Reach for Ned (unless this is major foreshadowing involving something that hasn't yet happened in the books).

Spoiler

(Hmm. GRRM has said that peaches represent summer, and Bran's wolf is named ...)

Ser Jorah gives Dany a small peach and she finds it to be delicious. 

But wait, there's more.

In The Sworn Sword, we know that Osgrey's forager (poacher), Lem / Dake, tried to take sheep from Lady Rohanne. Ser Bennis also wounds one of Lady Rohanne's ditch diggers on his cheek. We know that Lady Rohanne will eventually marry into House Lannister. In the story told by Ser Eustace, one of the Lannister's tried to "take a bit out of the Reach," but the Little Lion stopped him. (There are also "lion" anagram possibilities in Ser Criston Cole's name.) Dunk cuts his own cheek with his own sword and that seems to be a necessary step before his one-on-one duel (trial by combat) with Ser Lucas Longinch.

What I'm getting at is that the poaching and peach / sheep wordplay and conflict is all about who will be the kingmaker. Osgrey needs sheep in order to become that kind of player. Lady Rohanne needs peaches ("chequy") in order to become a kingmaker. On a symbolic level, I suspect the resolution of The Sworn Sword gives Lady Rohanne the win she needs to become a kingmaker and she takes all of her mojo with her into the marriage with House Lannister, allowing them to become great kingmakers in ensuing generations. 

The chain of wordplay and fruit symbolism links "King me" to checkers to "chequy" to cheeks to peaches to sheep. GRRM has given us Ser Criston Cole as a hint about how to sort out the symbols and as the answer the the symbols: the kingmaker.

I've been trying to work out peach / sheep wordplay and symbolism for quite awhile.

So glad this finally came together in my tiny brain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

House Lorch also has three coins in their sigil, though I can't find any good anagrams. I suppose Ser Amory could be considered a morbid sort of kingmaker...

Interestingly, peaches are supposed to represent immortality, but Renly and Robert are both dead, as is the city of Vaes Tolorro, where Jorah gets the peach from. However there is a sort of immortality associated with being king, where you live on through your heir, so maybe that counts. There is also the whole king dies/is sacrificed in autumn to ensure summer and comes back in spring thing. Bran's near death experience seemed to be needed so he could name Summer. Also, Renly 'came back to life' and the Brotherhood without banners continued to fight in Robert's name ever after he died. Both Renly and Robert have songs about them, so maybe that way they will live on forever.

Winter Peaches are mentioned in one Bran chapter during the first book, before he falls...potential foreshadowing that Bran could make a King in the North/King of Winter?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

House Lorch also has three coins in their sigil

Excellent catch. Thank you. I've long suspected that Ser Amory plays an important symbolic role. I'll have to take a closer look.

3 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

peaches are supposed to represent immortality

Does this come from something GRRM said, or just the history of literary symbolism? Or an interpretation of something in the books? I haven't heard this before. 

I have found that there are many, many ways that characters can be reborn after dying, but I haven't associated peaches with those rebirths. For instance, I suspect Joffrey is "reborn" as Moonboy, Renly is Gendry, Rhaegar is Mance, and Ned is reborn as Dolorous Edd - they are not literally the same person in a new body, but aspects of their character or their function in the series are sustained in the new character. None of these involve peaches.

But maybe I am conflating rebirth with immortality. They are not necessarily the same thing. 

If you can share supporting evidence from the books about peaches representing immortality, I would be grateful. 

I do embrace the notion of the sacrifice of the summer king as part of GRRM's thinking and part of the story behind the story. 

Here's an idea about peaches and immortality that may prove the case:

Being "kissed by fire" seems to be an important symbolic moment that confers some magic on the recipient. It may function like the "Achilles heel" story, making the warrior immune to harm except the small area that was not exposed to fire. (Hmm. This may bring us back to the Lorch sigil with the scorpion, too.) 

We know the Ygritte is kissed by fire, and she kissed Jon Snow. I assume this means that he is kissed by fire, too. 

The Hound may be kissed by fire because his brother forces his face down into a fire, causing him to become disfigured. 

Ser Beric is kissed by fire because Thoros of Myr gives him the kiss of life, reanimating him after death. 

When Bran eats the weirwood paste, one of the flavors or sensations he describes is his mother's last kiss. 

If I'm right about the cheek / peach symbolism, this might mean that a kiss on the cheek is a way of conferring the "kissed by fire" magic, if it is done by the right person.

The other part that is relevant to peaches is that, I suspect, peaches are important because they are colored like fire: red, orange, yellow. There is an important motif around colors in ASOIAF. One of the important sets of colors is the rainbow, with the fire colors on one "side" of green and the "BIV" colors on the other side (blue, indigo and violet). I think the non-fire colors are  "eye" colors. Through wordplay, "eyes" and "ice" are paired. So the rainbow represents fire and eyes/ice, with green in the middle possibly acting as a sort of symbolic fulcrum. 

So maybe I've puttered around long enough that I've answered my own question. Peaches represent the kind of rebirth associated with "kissed by fire" magic. So your point may be well taken that peaches represent immortality. (One kind of immortality, anyway. Now we just have to figure out how or whether someone can be kissed by ice. My guess is that this balancing set of symbols will come back to interacting with snowflakes. I guess it's time to really start that thread I've been contemplating to discuss the symbolism of kisses.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Does this come from something GRRM said, or just the history of literary symbolism? Or an interpretation of something in the books? I haven't heard this before. 

I don't think GRRM has mentioned anything about it, it was just something I came across when reading about peaches online.

From the Wikipedia page 'Peaches of Immortality':

Quote

In Chinese mythology, Peaches of Immortality[1] (Chinese: 仙桃; pinyin: xiāntáo; Cantonese Yale: sīn tòuh or Chinese: 蟠桃; pinyin: pántáo; Cantonese Yale: pùhn tòuh) are consumed by the immortals due to their mystic virtue of conferring longevity on all who eat them. Peaches symbolizing immortality (or the wish for a long and healthy life) are a common symbol in Chinese art, appearing in depictions or descriptions in a number of fables, paintings, and other forms of art, often in association with thematically similar iconography, such as certain deities or immortals or other symbols of longevity, such as deer or cranes.

I haven't found anything definite in the books so far, I was just speculating based on the link between peaches and immortality. I think that peaches in the book are better linked with rebirth, as we have Renly returning in a way, and the peaches found within Vaes Tolorro could represent a sort of 'rebirth' for the city had Daenerys chosen to stay there and make it a home, as she thinks about. I've seen some speculation online that 'Robert Strong' will have Robert Baratheon's head attached, in which case there would be another peach associated rebirth. One could also take Bran's winter peaches to indicate an ice rebirth rather than a fire one. But I don't really have anything definite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/22/2022 at 8:07 AM, Seams said:

Being "kissed by fire" seems to be an important symbolic moment that confers some magic on the recipient. It may function like the "Achilles heel" story, making the warrior immune to harm except the small area that was not exposed to fire. (Hmm. This may bring us back to the Lorch sigil with the scorpion, too.) 

 

This somewhat dovetails with a theory of mine.  One can argue we have another character "kissed by fire", Quentyn:

Quote

     And then a hot wind buffeted him and he heard the sound of leathern wings and the air was full of ash and cinders and a monstrous roar went echoing off the scorched and blackened bricks and he could hear his friends shouting wildly. Gerris was calling out his name, over and over, and the big man was bellowing, “Behind you, behind you, behind you!”
        Quentyn turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself, the green one is Rhaegal.
        When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning.

Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream.

My suspicion is that George is taking the Frog Prince story and turning it on its head.  

Quote

“They call him frog,” she said, “and we have just learned why. In the Seven Kingdoms there are children’s tales of frogs who turn into enchanted princes when kissed by their true love.” Smiling at the Dornish knights, she switched back to the Common Tongue. “Tell me, Prince Quentyn, are you enchanted?”

Quentyn receives a kiss from his true love, only his true love/desire, isn't Dany, it's her dragons.  And the kiss he receives from the dragon is a kiss of fire.  So continuing the Frog Prince comparison, once Quentyn receives the kiss there should be a transformation.

I think this is why George doesn't kill off Quentyn right away.  Instead he leaves him on a death bed for three days being watched over by Missendei.  Perhaps a similar situation to Bran being on the cusp of life or death when Bran's third eye opens.

My suspicion is Rhaegar's reference to the Dragon having three heads might be literal.  Three consciousnesses transferred into a literal dragon.  Quentyn might be our first transfer. If so we should expect two more before Rhaegar's "prophecy" is fulfilled.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the link between chequy sigils and "the game of thrones" may be some promising territory to explore, but I'm betting that any checked board will have more of a tie to chess than checkers. GRRM is an avid chess player, and chess plays an integral role in many of his other stories. Some of them are obvious, like Unsound Variations, and some a little more subtly embedded, like Sandkings

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said:

I think the link between chequy sigils and "the game of thrones" may be some promising territory to explore, but I'm betting that any checked board will have more of a tie to chess than checkers. GRRM is an avid chess player, and chess plays an integral role in many of his other stories. Some of them are obvious, like Unsound Variations, and some a little more subtly embedded, like Sandkings

Oh, I don't know.  The interesting aspect of checkers is that when a piece gets to the end of the board the piece becomes a king and can move forward or backwards.  It might play a special significance if we find that a certain character, ahem Bran, becomes a time traveler.  Bran becomes a King, and then can move forwards and backwards in time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Oh, I don't know.  The interesting aspect of checkers is that when a piece gets to the end of the board the piece becomes a king and can move forward or backwards.  It might play a special significance if we find that a certain character, ahem Bran, becomes a time traveler.  Bran becomes a King, and then can move forwards and backwards in time.

Perhaps. But in two of GRRM's earlier stories involving chess players, moving forward and backwards in time is a prominent aspect of the plot, tying in with the theme of chess move variations.

In one of those stories (Under Siege), there is even time travel mixed with mind control/skinchanging, just like Bran.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/21/2022 at 10:32 PM, Seams said:

Because of the wordplay on checkers, chequy and cheek, I think characters with distinctive cheeks may also be in this exclusive group of kingmakers. I'm thinking Brienne and The Hound, although we also see Ser Duncan the Tall cut his own cheek in The Sworn Sword

I'm already starting to pick apart my own theory.

Quote

On one occasion in 10 AC, Aegon and Visenya were both attacked in the streets of King's Landing, and if not for Visenya and Dark Sister, the king might not have survived. Despite this, the king still believed that his guards were sufficient to his defense; Visenya convinced him otherwise. (It is recorded that when Aegon pointed out his guardsmen, Visenya drew Dark Sister and cut his cheek before his guards could react. "Your guards are slow and lazy," Visenya is reported to have said, and the king was forced to agree.)

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon I

I suspect that Visenya might fit the category of Kingmaker, but here she is cutting Aegon's cheek. He is already a king, and he wouldn't fit the category of Kingmaker, so far as I can define the term. But this may be the earliest significant cheek-cutting incident in the histories. What could it mean?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/24/2022 at 6:16 PM, Seams said:

I suspect that Visenya might fit the category of Kingmaker, but here she is cutting Aegon's cheek. He is already a king, and he wouldn't fit the category of Kingmaker, so far as I can define the term. But this may be the earliest significant cheek-cutting incident in the histories. What could it mean?

In cyvasse and in chess, the goal is to overcome or "kill" the king. A winner emerges and just like in the game of thrones it's game over for the losing king.

I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four. —Tyrion Lannister when defeating Young Griff

GRRM hasn't revealed the rules governing cyvasse but in chess the king has limited options and can only move one square in any direction, except for when the player "castles" him with a rook for protection, in which case the king can move over two squares. Visenya cutting his cheek to prove Aegon needs protection by a strong, quick and efficient kingsguard is analogous to "castling" a king in chess. In chess, the queen gets to move all over the board (except to jump other pieces) and in cyvasse, the dragon flies - in both games the dragon/queen have the potential to get close to the king to cause harm, which is what Visenya acts out. Aegon was an important "game changer" when he conquered and united Westeros. So perhaps the character cutting cheeks is not so much a kingmaker as one who marks those destined to drastically change the course of the game. Those with cut or damaged cheeks are the "game changers."  By cutting the old digger's cheek, Ser Bennis turned what was supposed to be a fact-finding mission into an ugly encounter with potential future violence. The digger's cut cheek aroused the Red Widow's wrath, leading to a dangerous situation for Eustace Osgrey's side. Dunk cutting  his own cheek symbolises taking the game back from  the digger and he comes with his own inbuilt defence - like Aegon I, he is "castled," "thick as a castle wall." His role as a mentor and "tutor" to Egg who will become Aegon V is game changing as well. Their partnership a highly unconventional and probably influenced Egg in his role and actions as a king, the most important of which probably was Aegon's choice to marry for love (in respect of House Targaryen recovering components of the blood of the dragon). I think Dunk was probably instrumental in saving baby Rhaegar's life during the tragedy at Summerhall as well. 

Catelyn tore her own cheeks to ribbons and may turn out to be a major game-changer in the near future. Both Brienne and Shireen have damaged cheeks and may fall into this category as well. 

Peach-eating characters may also be game-changers and or kings/ queens or potential kings or queens. This holds true for King Robert (who survived the Battle of the Bells by hiding in the Peach brothel whose symbol is a peach with a bite taken out of it), for Daenerys and for Renly (definite game-changers), peach-eating Asha and even Bran of the winter peach. Did Ned eat Robert's peaches? Not sure but he was a game-changer as well as kingmaker, albeit an unwilling one. 

The Chequy Lion and the conflict over the Chequy Water got me thinking about cheques as in financial transactions. (side note - as far as lions go, the Lannisters (gold lion) always pay their debts). After Ser Eustace learns of Ser Bennis's deed - cutting the old digger's cheek - he thinks of offering Lady Rohanne a "blood price" to solve the conflict, he was certainly concerned over the issue and "paying the debt." Perhaps his desire and/or ability to pay the blood price or debt is symoblised by the gold squares of the Chequy Lion. The Chequy Water can also be seen as "currency" (think also current - of water). It is the currency of survival that Lady Rohanne hoards for herself and her people to the exclusion of all downstream of her dam.

This train of thought got me thinking about "promises" issued in lieu of payment to a person owed a certain sum of money / gold. "Promises" in aSoiaF are modelled on promissory notes used in the past. For a more exact definition from Wikipedia:

Quote

A promissory note, sometimes referred to as a note payable, is a legal instrument (more particularly, a financing instrument and a debt instrument), in which one party (the maker or issuer) promises in writing to pay a determinate sum of money to the other (the payee), either at a fixed or determinable future time or on demand of the payee, under specific terms and conditions. 

 

As noted earlier in this thread, the Payne sigil has a purple and white chequy pattern with gold coins on every square. What if this represents a "cheque," a "promise," a sigil symbolising an ancient unpaid debt owed to House Payne for services rendered, by a purple and white party or parties? There may be wordplay on Payne / Pay - me / pay - ee. Perhaps the issuers were Daynes.

Rambling on, it crossed my mind that by promising Lyana to raise Jon, Ned might have paid an ancient debt owed by the Starks to .... ? 

 

On 8/22/2022 at 4:32 AM, Seams said:

I have strongly suspected that Littlefinger is also a kingmaker. If the "coin crest" is a hint for us, then his longtime service as the Master of Coin probably confirms that he is a checker-playing kingmaker. By this logic, Tyrion would also be a kingmaker because he also served as Master of Coin. (I suspect that Tyrion is a master of all games, and this may be his destiny in the series.) Perhaps Penny, whose name is a coin name, is also a kingmaker. (There could be Payne / a penny wordplay.) 

Littlefinger became a kingmaker when he betrayed Ned. If Joff was the target of the poisoning at the Purple Wedding then he's a king un-maker as well but if Tyrion was the actual target of that poisoning incident then he can be seen as attempting to eliminate a rival Master of Coin and potential kingmaker. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The translation of Criston Cole's name in the German version of HotD caught my attention the other day. It's rendered as "Kriston Kraut," "Kraut" being synonymous with "Kohl," a word used to denote cabbage or vegetables belonging to the cole family of plants. English speakers are probably familiar with "sauerkraut," made from fermented cabbage. I wondered why "kraut" and not "kohl," especially since "kohl" and "cole" share the same pronouciation. But then so do "coal" and "Kohle," the latter meaning "coal." Anyway, this got me thinking about Criston's surname so I looked up "cole" to find it's a collective term for various crop plants also known as cruciferous (from latin - "cross-bearing") vegetables because their four-petalled flowers are shaped like a cross. These include cabbage, brussel sprouts, kale, cauliflower and kohlrabi. "Kraut" however is specific to cabbage. Criston alludes to Christ and so does "cruciferous" and coming to think of it, in the end, Ser Criston "bore a heavy cross" by way of the consequences of his actions as kingmaker:

Quote

I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker. There's tens o' thousands dead on your account.

—Pate of Longleaf to Criston

Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons.

—thoughts of Arys Oakheart

Though the name "Cole" is also assossicated with "coal,:"

Ser Criston had "coal black hair" and from the Wiki:
 

Quote

According to George R. R. Martin, the black pellets depicted on their sigil are lumps of coal (SDCC 23 July 2022 Panel). The name of the house may be a derivative of this substance.

I think the reference to the vegetable "cole" is significant. His surname is a play on both "coal" and the vegetable "cole" and indeed, Criston goes from supporting the "blacks" to  transferring his loyalty to the "greens." He has coal black hair and pale green eyes (pale green like a cabbage). Another thing about crucifers is that their stems do not become woody but remain soft and succulent, dying after flowering. Looking into this further could bring some new insights into the symbolism of black and green in the narrative. We have charred wood vrs. green crop plants that do not become woody. 

Pondering further, I realised there are some parallels between Criston Cole and Jon Snow. Cole was the son of a steward of Blackhaven, Jon a steward and brother of the Night's Watch (a kind of "black haven" for the criminals of the realm). Criston and Jon both Lord Commanders. When Arya gets upset over Ned Dayne's revelation of Wylla being Jon's mother, Gendry quips:

Quote

“He must have found that bastard under a cabbage leaf, then,” Gendry said behind them.

Jon also "bears a heavy cross." Perhaps Criston is a clue to Jon's future role. Will Jon change allegiances, go from "black to green?" The green symbolized by Bran / Summer / Prince of the Green? Jon, not a king but a kingmaker?

"Kingmakercole" yields an interesting anagram: camerlengo.  The Camerlengo is a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church appointed treasurer of the Holy See, who, upon the death of the pope, presides over the conclave that elects the new pope. Besides being yet another link to the church, the Camerlengo's function regarding the election of a new pope is similar to Cole's kingmaker role, the treasurer perhaps a connection to the "coin crest role" anagram. Another anagram is "gnomelike" - gnome translates to "imp," putting us in mind of Tyrion of the black and green eyes. So "secret in colors"?

Since this a new line of thought, these are just my first impressions, hopefully worth looking further into.  

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Kriston Kraut

cruciferous (from latin - "cross-bearing") vegetables

also associated with "coal"

parallels between Criston Cole and Jon Snow

found that bastard under a cabbage leaf

"Kingmakercole" yields an interesting anagram: camerlengo. treasurer. presides over the conclave. 

Another anagram is "gnomelike" - gnome translates to "imp," putting us in mind of Tyrion of the black and green eyes. So "secret in colors"?

I'm speechless. So. Good. Thank you for these amazing insights. 

I had started trying to keep track of people eating root vegetables. I guess I have to start keeping track of cabbage and cauliflower.

Well done!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/21/2022 at 9:32 PM, Seams said:

Criston Cole is the Kingmaker. I believe there are other kingmakers (and wannabee kingmakers) in the history of Westeros and that anagrams of Ser Criston's name can help us to spot them. 

I took another look at Ser Criston Cole to see if the "secret in colors" anagram could help to sort out the symbolism behind the Greens and the Blacks. But I decided to look at the other possible anagrams as well, and came to a new insight about "coin crest roles" that could be very helpful in the larger symbolism scheme. 

If "coin crest roles" is a deliberate hint for us, I was thinking this might explain why there are coins on the sigil of House Payne. 

Is House Payne the only house with coins in its sigil? 

Here's what I'm thinking. Half-baked, but helping to sort out some symbols that had been puzzling me.

We know that GRRM has used a lot of game metaphors in the books, and this is a reason that the first book is called The Game of Thrones

One game that I haven't seen clearly played is checkers. But I suspected there was a wordplay connection between checkers, the "chequy" lion sigil (House Osgrey) and the Chequy Water as well as cheeks.

Contemplating the "coin crest" anagram led me to realize that House Payne has something of a checkerboard sigil, with gold coins instead of checkers. This makes perfect sense to me as a metaphor for a game played by a kingmaker: coins usually feature pictures of monarchs and sigils. In checkers, if you survive a trip across the board, you can say, "King me" and acquire greater power in the game. 

So look to Ser Ilyn and Podrick to function as kingmakers.

I have strongly suspected that Littlefinger is also a kingmaker. If the "coin crest" is a hint for us, then his longtime service as the Master of Coin probably confirms that he is a checker-playing kingmaker. By this logic, Tyrion would also be a kingmaker because he also served as Master of Coin. (I suspect that Tyrion is a master of all games, and this may be his destiny in the series.) Perhaps Penny, whose name is a coin name, is also a kingmaker. (There could be Payne / a penny wordplay.) 

This is part of the theory that needs more work, probably. 

Because of the wordplay on checkers, chequy and cheek, I think characters with distinctive cheeks may also be in this exclusive group of kingmakers. I'm thinking Brienne and The Hound, although we also see Ser Duncan the Tall cut his own cheek in The Sworn Sword

As I've stated elsewhere in the forum, I also believe that GRRM has a system of linked body parts and fruits: eyes / grapes, lemons / teeth, melons / heads, oranges / feet, etc. Cheeks are linked to peaches. 

So Renly offering Stannis a peach is a kingmaker gesture. Renly also tried to get Robert to marry Margaery but then Renly married her. Margaery is from the Reach and peaches come from the Reach. 

This doesn't quite work with Robert bringing peaches from the Reach for Ned (unless this is major foreshadowing involving something that hasn't yet happened in the books).

  Reveal hidden contents

(Hmm. GRRM has said that peaches represent summer, and Bran's wolf is named ...)

Ser Jorah gives Dany a small peach and she finds it to be delicious. 

But wait, there's more.

In The Sworn Sword, we know that Osgrey's forager (poacher), Lem / Dake, tried to take sheep from Lady Rohanne. Ser Bennis also wounds one of Lady Rohanne's ditch diggers on his cheek. We know that Lady Rohanne will eventually marry into House Lannister. In the story told by Ser Eustace, one of the Lannister's tried to "take a bit out of the Reach," but the Little Lion stopped him. (There are also "lion" anagram possibilities in Ser Criston Cole's name.) Dunk cuts his own cheek with his own sword and that seems to be a necessary step before his one-on-one duel (trial by combat) with Ser Lucas Longinch.

What I'm getting at is that the poaching and peach / sheep wordplay and conflict is all about who will be the kingmaker. Osgrey needs sheep in order to become that kind of player. Lady Rohanne needs peaches ("chequy") in order to become a kingmaker. On a symbolic level, I suspect the resolution of The Sworn Sword gives Lady Rohanne the win she needs to become a kingmaker and she takes all of her mojo with her into the marriage with House Lannister, allowing them to become great kingmakers in ensuing generations. 

The chain of wordplay and fruit symbolism links "King me" to checkers to "chequy" to cheeks to peaches to sheep. GRRM has given us Ser Criston Cole as a hint about how to sort out the symbols and as the answer the the symbols: the kingmaker.

I've been trying to work out peach / sheep wordplay and symbolism for quite awhile.

So glad this finally came together in my tiny brain.

So Littlefinger doesn’t have coins in his crest but he was master of coin, and most assuredly an ersatz king - or queen- maker.  
 

Also when you mentioned “chequy”, wasn’t Dunk’s boss dispossessed of the Chequy Water for participating in a Blackfyre Rebellion?  That’s king-making of a sort too, innit? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Reekazoid said:

Also when you mentioned “chequy”, wasn’t Dunk’s boss dispossessed of the Chequy Water for participating in a Blackfyre Rebellion?  That’s king-making of a sort too, innit? 

Yes, as discussed earlier in this thread. 

I'm still trying to sort out the details, though, and this is my latest thought about peaches: what if they represent the rising and setting sun, and the peach must be possessed by the person who is the rightful king or queen? But the King's Hand can also possess or manipulate peaches, with permission of the king. 

Robert has a box of peaches he says he brought for Ned, just as he asks Ned to become Hand of the King. 

Robert has a daughter named Bella, who works at the brothel called The Peach. The sign at the brothel shows a peach with one bite out of it.

Renly offers a peach to Stannis but Stannis declines and then regrets it later. Renly eats the peach, however, which may represent sunset. Renly may become the night king because he has eaten the sun (caused sunset). 

In The Sworn Sword, Ser Eustace tells the story about the Little Lion preventing the Lannisters from taking a bite out of the Reach. In other words, House Osgrey defends the peach and House Lannister has not yet climbed the social ladder to the point of befriending a king and becoming the Hand of the King. Later, House Lannister marries into House Tyrell, assuring a peach supply for itself - if only one of the Lannister kings would bed his Tyrell bride.

Jaime, I believe, represents the setting sun. He uses his kingslayer hand to push Bran, leading to Bran opening his third eye. Jaime is later teamed up with Ser Ilyn Payne, the old and mute kingmaker (if the coin sigil is a clue about this). Ser Ilyn was a fan of Tywin and may have spent all of his kingmaker mojo on Tywin. 

Conveniently, Jaime has empowered Brienne. Podrick Payne (the young, up-and-coming kingmaker) has teamed up with Brienne, who may personify Renly's peach. (Complicating things, Pod is actually loyal to Tyrion but follows Brienne in hopes of finding Jaime's brother.)

Biter takes a bite out of Brienne's cheek, which probably represents a bite out of a peach. But who does Biter represent? I've written about the biter / bitter wordplay pair, but it doesn't seem as if Biter would be working for Bittersteel, although I may be wrong. Is there another, hidden sponsor behind Rorge and Biter? If Brienne represents Renly's peach, then Biter may represent Stannis. He finally gets his bite of the peach and then Gendry - who looks like Renly - kills him.

Brienne is sworn to the service of Lady Stark, now Lady Stoneheart. Peaches have stone hearts (pits) so maybe that works out alright. As Evolett pointed out, Lady Stark tore the flesh of her own cheeks at the Red Wedding and soon became Lady Stoneheart. The flesh of the fruit came off the pit. 

We know that Brienne's quest is to find Catelyn's remaining daughter, Sansa. Bonus if Arya turns up alive, too. But symbolically, maybe the goal is to reunite the peach pit with its flesh. How is this done? In real life, by planting a pit and growing a tree that bears peaches. In ASOIAF, I think it may be done by receiving a "kissed by fire" kiss. Bran may be a pit planted in the ground in a cave, and he is growing into a tree. He says that the weirwood paste reminded him of his mother's last kiss. We know that Catelyn was given the last kiss of Ser Beric. If she has symbolically bestowed her last kiss on Bran via the weirwood paste, he may be a peach-in-the-making.

Brienne's quest could be to provide some version of the peach reunion to Arya and Sansa. She lost a bite of her own cheek, but she can still help the Stark girls. She adopts the sigil of Ser Duncan the Tall, which is a tree. Maybe symbolic of the importance of growing a tree to bring new fruit into the world. 

Or maybe Sansa and Arya are the moons instead of the rising sun? In which case they may represent eggs, which can also be poached (in a process that is not exactly like poaching peaches, but similar). 

In addition to the "bite out of the Reach" comment, the clue in The Sworn Sword is that plant crops are raised on Osgrey land but sheep are raised on Webber land. Osgrey has water (used for poaching eggs) and Webber seems to have wine (used for poaching peaches). Osgrey has trees but Webber cuts down a couple of them to build a dam, taking the water. She then burns  down the woods (she denies doing so). The burning woods awakens Dunk who thinks the sun is rising in the west. So this may be our hint about sunset preceding the new sunrise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So let me review so I keep this straight:

Ser Ilyn Payne king-makes (makes-king? :P ) on behalf of Tywin Lannister, by removing the threat (and head!) of Ned Stark, thus neutralizing the most immediate threat to Joffrey's legitimacy and therefore Lannister control of the crown.

So far so good....

Now, the decapitation of Ned Stark triggered in earnest the War of Five Kings.    Does anyone know exactly how many coins are in the Payne crest?   Please let that number be five!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Given what a famous figure Criston Cole is, why didn't Loras recognise his sigil in AFFC?

I don't want to delve into fan fiction territory with my assumptions about Loras Tyrell, but he strikes me as the kind fo kid that  was more attentive to jousting lessons and less attentive to heraldry.  Ser Criston Cole won most of his renown and notoriety as a knight of the Kingsguard, right?  By that time his shield was white.  He was initially a lower-ranking noble IIRC, so the Cole arms might not be printed in the big shields section of the heraldry books.

 

But yeah, good point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2022 at 6:53 PM, Evolett said:

Anyway, this got me thinking about Criston's surname so I looked up "cole" to find it's a collective term for various crop plants also known as cruciferous (from latin - "cross-bearing") vegetables because their four-petalled flowers are shaped like a cross.

In analyzing the Dunk and Egg stories, I had ventured to guess that "Pennytree" is an anagram of "neep entry," with "neep" being a Scottish or northern English word for a turnip. Along with Davos as the Onion Night, I was thinking that this helped to explain why root vegetables are mentioned in strategic moments of the series.

But I just now googled, "Are turnips a cruciferous vegetable" and the reply came back affirmative. 

I had had these vague notions that members of the Kings' Guard had a special ability to transcend barriers, easily crossing from the known world to the Underworld or Otherworld. And the "neep entry" anagram had been a clue to me that turnips (associated with the camp follower Hildy as well as the dish Bran sends to the Walder wards at the Harvest Feast) and Pennytree were entrances to the Underworld. I couldn't explain either of these discoveries, but your insight into Criston Cole helps to carry the ball closer to the goal line.

If Ser Criston Cole is a model member of the kings guard as well as the original Kingmaker, and he represents cruciferous vegetables, then turnips must be part of this special kingmaker power that may reside in members of the kings guard. Just before he stops for the night at Pennytree, Hildy flirts with Jaime, inviting him to come after her and her "turnips". 

Yet another line of wordplay thinking: 

"Ferrous" is a word meaning "containing or consisting of iron". What if "cruciferous" is one of GRRM's wordplay clues meaning "iron cross"? When swords clash, they create an iron cross. 

But the "Ser Criston Cole" anagram also may give us a hint that "cross loci" (cross locations) can create other kinds of entrances - enter cross loci. This would explain why jousting tourneys seem to symbolize clashes over succession to the throne, resolution of other power struggles or conferring of special powers. When "iron crosses" occur (crossed swords) the victors of those conflicts gain the power to enter the Otherworld. (In Celtic mythology, mortal heroes are often drawn into the Underworld to resolve conflicts among the gods.) 

Still so many good insights coming out of your great catch on Criston as a cabbage!

Here is a link to my earlier "neep entry" analysis, if anyone wants to know more. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/22/2022 at 4:32 AM, Seams said:

One game that I haven't seen clearly played is checkers.

Have you spotted this possible reference to the game of checkers?

Quote

The tiles turned against me at the Checkered Hazard, and I wasted my last stag on supper. 

This is Lazy Leo in the prologue to aFfC. I hadn't noticed that beforehand. He speaks of tiles which equate to the pieces used in checkers and the place his called the Checkered Hazard so that fits. Lazy Leo lost the game which is interesting since he is a Tyrell with a lion name (Leo), probably symbolizing the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and failure their to uphold the kingship. 

I found some more references to "cabbage" in relation to the cabbage character switching sides. 
Hot Pie gathers and carries cabbage which Arya orders him to give to the cook at the inn in exchange for a meal of rabbit stew. Hot Pie then elects to leave the band of three in favor of remaining at the Inn of the Kneeling Man. 

Janos Slynt, associated with having a frog-face and with cabbage stuffed in his brain is a corrupt 2-faced guy. He goes from green (frog) / gold to black (NW).

Dany, in her last chapter, when she sets out from Drogon's lair:

Quote

She was hungry too. One morning she had found some wild onions growing halfway down the south slope, and later that same day a leafy reddish vegetable that might have been some queer sort of cabbage

 

Seems to foreshadow her internal debate and probably embracing of her full "dragon nature."

Also, if Jon was found "under a cabbage leaf," then Lyanna is the cabbage character who switched sides by abandoning her betrothal to Robert in favour of Rhaegar. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Turnips, crossing to the underworld, Hildy, Pennytree

On 9/7/2022 at 4:41 PM, Seams said:

I had had these vague notions that members of the Kings' Guard had a special ability to transcend barriers, easily crossing from the known world to the Underworld or Otherworld. And the "neep entry" anagram had been a clue to me that turnips (associated with the camp follower Hildy as well as the dish Bran sends to the Walder wards at the Harvest Feast) and Pennytree were entrances to the Underworld.

Turnips and crossings

Some evidence for associations between neeps/turnips and crossing to the Underworld: 

Bran sends boiled beets to Little Walder during the Harvest Feast while Big Walder receives the buttered turnips. Rickon takes the Walder boys into the Winterfell crypts - here Rickon facilitates entry into the underworld and this annoys Bran. The Walders also introduce the Lord of the Crossing game to the kids at Winterfell. In terms of the supernatural, the Lord of the Crossing is the guardian who manages the gates or crossing over into the underworld.

Little Walder who got the beets is lord of the crossing game more often than not. The boys argue over who will become the next Lord of the Crossing/Lord of House Frey and despite being far down the line  of inheritance, Big Walder says he will secure the position. A cook's boy named Turnip participates in the game as well, losing to Little Walder. According to the appendix, Turnip is a pot girl and scullion (seems to be some mistake in the text). In any case "scullion" may be a play on "scallion," i.e. spring onions, reminding us of Davos who facilitates Mel's birthing of an underworld shadow creature. At this point, my suspision is that root vegetables do not represent the crossing itself but rather the vehicle by which a spirit may cross to AND possibly from the underworld. Davos's onions brought life and if they are spring onions that fits even more so. And as regards cruciferous vegetable types, my guess is that these can overcome the iron barrier that bars spirits from leaving the grave. However, I'm certain your intepretation of crossing swords and kingsguards crossing barriers is correct. 

The rivalry between the Walder boys for the position of psychopomp appears settled when Little Walder is found dead at the enterance to the underworld, the crypts. So the "Turnip lord" succeeds and the Beet bites the dust. Big Walder likely killed his cousin. It's interesting that Ramsay's boy (LW) loses to Lord Manderly's boy (BW), especially since the Manderly merman association with "under the sea," another kind of underworld, is implied. Their hall is a veritable sea underworld. 

Bran giving away turnips and Rickon losing to Little Walder suggest the Starks were once lords of the underworld crossing but have lost this post. Robb loses the game to Walder Frey. He never said "mayhaps" (Frey points this out to Robb). Platters of mashed turnips were served at the red wedding and Big Walder now has the winning turnips. 

Hildy, Turnips and the Teats

Hildy's turnips are her breasts and she's sleeping with Lord Bracken. Hildy is definitely a nod at the two hills - in this case, Barba's Teats? But wait - Big Walder's granny was a Blackwood and Lord Bracken says Hildy is a prize of war, so Hildy representing Missy's Teats is more likely. So the Blackwoods and Starks (or Tullys?) once formed a "psychopomp team" but now we have a Frey and ? teaming up. Could Jamie be the second new team member (Hildy offers herself to him and he feels attracted)?

How do turnips/breasts relate to being vehicles for spirits returning from the underworld - being a "neep entry." I think I have the answer. I've had it for a while now without enough supporting evidence but this does further my theory. The answer is milk. Wet-nurses. Some Spirits are reincarnated through the milk of wet-nurses where they are passed on to the baby along with the breast milk. Neep entry. And to add some more substance to that is this, when Jamie and his troops arrive at Pennytree:

Quote

The nanny goat that Hot Harry Merrell found rooting through a vegetable garden was the only living creature to be seen 

And here we have Big Walder associated with a nanny goat and her kids:

Quote

“No one.” Big Walder pulled the saddle off his grey. “An old man we met on the road, is all. He was driving an old nanny goat and four kids.” “His lordship slew him for his goats?” “His lordship slew him for calling him Lord Snow. 

So this begs the question as to the nature of the ancestral spirits reborn through a wet-nurse's milk (or indeed mother's milk). Since Bloodraven, son of Missy is a greenseer, an educated guess would be the spirits of  ancient wargs/skinchangers /greenseers (in this case) traverse from the otherside through this "neep entry." A woman takes a man's soul along with his seed and passes this soul to a child through her breast milk. This is what I think happens in Craster's case. Part of his soul is passed on to his baby boys through mother's milk. Dalla died in childbirth so baby Aemon never got her milk. Gilly feeds him Craster's soul through her milk. Aemon and Monster are true "milk brothers." I'm still trying to pin down what Wylla fed Jon Snow. The clues here are fishwives and Ned Dayne who is his milk brother. 

 

Pennytree

Standing between the two hilly "teats," I think the oaken Pennytree is a phallic symbol with a twist. The two hills represent women from both factions taken and violated, reducing their worth considerably, especially if they were virgins. Their value then drops to a symbolic Penny. A penny is nailed onto the "phallus" for every woman raped or taken against her will.

The great number of pennies reflect the cost of the centuries-long dispute between the Brackens and Blackwoods (think also pennies / penis /penises). Aegon the Unworthy helps himself to the daughters of the 2 noble houses. Hildy is Bracken's "prize of war," probably from the Blackwood side of the fence. The virgin daughters of smallfolk also have their worth. Rosey's mum demands a dragon for her virginity and Lazy Leo suggests her worth will drop to an affordable level if he "breaks her in" first. In manys cases, a girl so violated is reduced to the status of a whore. This is where Tyrion and Tysha's story comes in. Poor Tysha suffered sexual abuse on a grand scale by a plan orchestrated by Tywin. Tyrion went last. He paid her a gold dragon because HE was worth more but at that point Tysha herself was worth nothing more than a "penny." The dwarf's Penny is a tax imposed on prostitution. Penny the dwarf symbolizes the "worthless penny" Tyrion helped create. His very own "dwarf's penny". Where do whores and turnips go? Perhaps they are crucified at Pennytree. 

On a supernatural level, Pennytree represents a portal or exit for the souls of men, a place where women collect seed as well as souls for rebirth through the "neeps." There are not many women capable of this feat, I suspect, but Blackwood and Bracken women apparently are. This makes them desirable to kings, so much so that the disputed area is now a royal fief. The rivalry between the Blackwoods and Brackens can also be seen as competition for the king's seed and secret powers passed on to his sons and daughters.  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...