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A specific plot point compromises the potential of the Dance (spoilers)


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I loved the pilot of the show but I am a bit sad that Hollywood can't really escape from it's pretentious mediocrity nowdays and doesn't want to truly divide the audience. The Dance of The Dragons is a civil War with no clear good and bad guys, it's people personalities and agendas with immense power clashing and burning the world along with them.

Yeah Rhaenyra is slightly more favorably written than the Greens but bt giving her the whole plot of carrying the information of The Long Night it instantly gives her a justification, removing her personal ambitions and egotism and it makes her a mainly tragic hero that did everything for the good of humanity and it annoys me because it's not the story Martin told.

What do you guys think?

Edited by Dreadscythe95
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2 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I loved the pilot of the show but I am a bit sad that Hollywood can't really escape from it's pretentious mediocrity nowdays and doesn't want to truly divide the audience. The Dance of The Dragons is a civil War with no clear good and bad guys, it's people personalities and agendas with immense power clashing and burning the world along with them.

Yeah Rhaenyra is slightly more favorably written than the Greens but bt giving her the whole plot of carrying the information of The Long Night it instantly gives her a justification, removing her personal ambitions and egotism and it makes her a mainly tragic hero that did everything for the good of humanity and it annoys me because it's the story Martin told.

What do you guys think?

I mean the Blacks were always sexier, cooler, and more interesting than the Greens. But I don't think the information of the Long Night actually removes so much from it because nothing keeps her from telling her brother about it and removing the conflict to preserve the Realm.

Even if you assume that there's a responsibility to protect the Realm that Aegon II is manifestly unsuited for, he's already manifestly unsuited for running a kingdom.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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17 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean the Blacks were always sexier, cooler, and more interesting than the Greens. But I don't think the information of the Long Night actually removes so much from it because nothing keeps her from telling her brother about it and removing the conflict to preserve the Realm.

Even if you assume that there's a responsibility to protect the Realm that Aegon II is manifestly unsuited for, he's already manifestly unsuited for running a kingdom.

Yeah I see the point here.

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16 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I thought that was an awkward speech there, really the only time the show broke my suspension of disbelief.  If only Aegon knew he didn't really need dragons just a little girl on a trampoline. 

I was like, "Wow, they are really setting up big stuff for that Snow show."

:)

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5 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I loved the pilot of the show but I am a bit sad that Hollywood can't really escape from it's pretentious mediocrity nowdays and doesn't want to truly divide the audience. The Dance of The Dragons is a civil War with no clear good and bad guys, it's people personalities and agendas with immense power clashing and burning the world along with them.

Yeah Rhaenyra is slightly more favorably written than the Greens but bt giving her the whole plot of carrying the information of The Long Night it instantly gives her a justification, removing her personal ambitions and egotism and it makes her a mainly tragic hero that did everything for the good of humanity and it annoys me because it's the story Martin told.

What do you guys think?

I disagree.

And I wish people would stop griping and complaining about the Long Night vision motivating the Targaryens. I understand that the sorry excuse for a Long Night in GOT left a bad taste in people's mouths (particularly with the asspull that is Arya's big kill of the Night King) but...it's getting real old real fast.

It's not really a retcon because it makes sense...it fills in a lot of gaps.

Aegon's conquest was random and the reasons as recorded in the faux-history books were shallow and Torrhen Stark's decision to bend the knee after having a long private conversation with Aegon and his sister-wives was random as well. And there was always something off about Aegon's super-abrupt decision to end the First Dornish War after reading a letter given to him by that one Martell princess and flying off to Dragonstone and reading some scrolls.

Granted, Viserys' speech in the show was awkward but I see nothing wrong with the Targaryens' true goal of ruling over a united Westeros being motivated by a desire to prevent the end of the world.

 

I don't know what it means for Snow but it's not looking good. But then again, the Snow show, as a concept, has never looked good. It's always been a yikes of an idea.

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I agree.

I loved the pilot but felt that it leaned a little too much on GoT. That speech being a prime example of it, but also starting by saying how long it takes before Daenerys was born, invoking the feelings people had for her from thrones, even though shes completely unrelated to this story. I also wish theyd made theyre own intro rather than just a three-headed dragon sigil. 

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5 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Aegon's conquest was random and the reasons as recorded in the faux-history books were shallow and Torrhen Stark's decision to bend the knee after having a long private conversation with Aegon and his sister-wives was random as well. And there was always something off about Aegon's super-abrupt decision to end the First Dornish War after reading a letter given to him by that one Martell princess and flying off to Dragonstone and reading some scrolls.

I mean, I DONT complain about this but I'm utterly confused by the idea anyone has to have a reason to conquer an Empire in the Middle Ages when they can.

Aegon saw it, wanted it, and took it.

Nothing wrong with that.

Edited by C.T. Phipps
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4 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

 Aegon's conquest was random and the reasons as recorded in the faux-history books were shallow and Torrhen Stark's decision to bend the knee after having a long private conversation with Aegon and his sister-wives was random as well.

Aegon's conquest sans prophecy wouldn't be any more random and shallow than any other conquest in history.

And for him and his sisters to use a carrot and stick approach with Torrhen Stark isn't random either, it's how politics is often done in the real world.

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1 minute ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I mean, I DONT complain about this but I'm utterly confused by the idea anyone has to have a reason to conquer an Empire in the Middle Ages when they can.

Aegon saw it, wanted it, and took it.

Nothing wrong with that.

Yes, but the previous Lords of Dragonstone were laying low. But then also, it is said he was looking eastward until that dream. So he had his ambitions as well.

I kinda agree with an opinion above. It wasn't presented in a good way, but it makes a lot of sense that this knowledge was passed on, got lost and got rediscovered, and that it may happen in the books as well.

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This piece from Kim Renfro is interesting as Sapochnik and Condal discuss the prophecy matter in detail, and reveals that the idea of the passage of Aegon's prophecy to his heirs was actually something they decided and was not, in fact, part of what George told them. They've done it, as I've said already, for dramatic effect but it's not really George's intent.

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10 minutes ago, Ran said:

This piece from Kim Renfro is interesting as Sapochnik and Condal discuss the prophecy matter in detail, and reveals that the idea of the passage of Aegon's prophecy to his heirs was actually something they decided and was not, in fact, part of what George told them. They've done it, as I've said already, for dramatic effect but it's not really George's intent.

But didn't George say in the Vanity Fair article that every king thought that the Long Night would happen during their lifetime or their sons lifetime, and wanted to be prepared?

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22 minutes ago, Ran said:

This piece from Kim Renfro is interesting as Sapochnik and Condal discuss the prophecy matter in detail, and reveals that the idea of the passage of Aegon's prophecy to his heirs was actually something they decided and was not, in fact, part of what George told them. They've done it, as I've said already, for dramatic effect but it's not really George's intent.

I'm confused because GRRM was just passing it off as if it was his idea and plan all along.

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7 minutes ago, nyser1 said:
  Reveal hidden contents

What's to stop Viserys from telling Aegon II before he dies, and thus they both know??

 

The way how this was done makes me seem like that wont be done, since he wants Rhaenyra to be his heir. Especially since it appears they will focus more on it in the coming episodes (from the hbo episode, havent read leaks). Butmaybe thats bad faith on my end

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I think giving Rhaenyra the prophecy wasn't a bad idea but they handled it pretty badly . it's odd to think Aegon's dream had been with such details in a world where dreams are ambiguous. and the idea of it passing down in whole, again seems a bit off . in thw contrary, Viserys's dream is completely vague although it'll happen in every detail and closest people to Viserys (Aemma) doesn't fully believe his dream .

as for the book's prophecy , I believe some sort of dream is involved with Aegon and his sister's conquer , marriage and sigil . I don't know what exactly but whatever it is it won't be a factual reading of the future and the long night. I also don't know if it had passed between generations but it's possible although their reactions , interpretations and understanding of it wouldn't be alike . some like Rhaegar and Jaeherys II may have taken what they knew of prophecy to heart , some may have interpreted it in a different way like Aerion and Egg , and some may even had different dreams which were related to it like Daeron the drunken

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30 minutes ago, Ran said:

This piece from Kim Renfro is interesting as Sapochnik and Condal discuss the prophecy matter in detail, and reveals that the idea of the passage of Aegon's prophecy to his heirs was actually something they decided and was not, in fact, part of what George told them. They've done it, as I've said already, for dramatic effect but it's not really George's intent.

The important thing about the revelation never was the Viserys-Rhaenyra stuff. That's just window-dressing for the show. For the books the Aegon thing is important.

If Aegon's descendants never truly bothered with this thing he would have certainly failed at this job ... but it is easily imaginable how something like that was kind of forgotten/not passed through the Maegor reign.

However, it seems pretty clear now that Rhaegar (and perhaps others) would then have rediscovered this knowledge, possibly by reading ancient scrolls and accounts from Aegon's own time, providing Rhaegar with his talk about the song of ice and fire, the promised prince, and the dragon who must have three heads.

I'd imagine, though, that Septon Barth must have written about this thing in his book. Anything else would have made him look pretty bad.

That is the better take on this whole thing, anyway, but the really meaningful thing is, again, the origin of the song of ice and fire and it being intimately connected to Aegon the Conqueror.

In context, though, nothing truly surprising in light of the prominence of Aegon and his sister-wifes, their three dragons, Dany's three dragons (one of them looking like Balerion), and her belief that she and the other two dragonriders will form a trinity like Aegon and his sisters did, although kind of reversed (one woman, two men).

At this point this kind of thing is about as likely as Bloodraven being the three-eyed crow or Aegon actually being a thing was prior to ADwD. Not that unlikely ... but we really didn't have enough pieces of the puzzle to make such a case.

But now we do.

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

I'm confused because GRRM was just passing it off as if it was his idea and plan all along.

According to the article Aegon dreaming about the Long Night, Others, the promised prince, etc. is directly from George. He told them that Aegon was 'a dreamer', like Daenys, Daeron, the second Daemon Blackfyre, Aerion, Egg, etc., but that he miscalculated when exactly the thing would happen.

The adaptation of this idea for HotD, using it specifically as a motivational layer for Viserys, Rhaenyra, and whoever else they might tell throughout the series ... is, so far, show exclusive. But George could always include references to something like that in future writings if he so chose. Not sure why he should or would since I doubt the Dance, etc. is going to be referenced all that often in the future volumes of ASoIaF. But the Conquest and Aegon the Conqueror obviously will. That's clear now.

And as I said repeatedly - I think this is will play a huge role both in convincing Daenerys to go to Westeros when she makes the call. Somebody (possibly Marwyn or Quaithe) will tell her about this, and it will be the need to do the deed Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros to do that convinces her to go to Westeros.

Other discussions of the prophecy could affect Aegon's later political decisions - latching on the idea that he is the promised prince as Rhaegar believed. It might even play a crucial role in Jon Snow understanding what his job is.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Other discussions of the prophecy could affect Aegon's later political decisions - latching on the idea that he is the promised prince as Rhaegar believed. It might even play a crucial role in Jon Snow understanding what his job is.

Oh I definitely believed that it informed Aegon's later political decisions.

Not wanting to take a non-Targaryen wife after Rhaenys died is one of them. Ending the Dornish War in the randomly abrupt way and befriending that one Martell princess (I think her name is Deria) in an even more randomly abrupt way is also another decision.

Maybe the Dornish (by way of their Rhoynish heritage perhaps?) knew something that Aegon didn't.

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, if it's so common for Targaryens to have these dreams, why didn't Rhaenyra have them?

I don't think  it's common.

Because clearly neither Daenys' brother nor father had those dreams.

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