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A specific plot point compromises the potential of the Dance (spoilers)


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Just now, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, if it's so common for Targaryens to have these dreams, why didn't Rhaenyra have them?

From what we heard

Spoiler

Helaena is going to have prophetic dreams in the show. But there certainly could be others having such dreams, too.

 

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Oh I definitely believed that it informed Aegon's later political decisions.

Not wanting to take a non-Targaryen wife after Rhaenys died is one of them. Ending the Dornish War in the randomly abrupt way and befriending that one Martell princess (I think her name is Deria) in an even more randomly abrupt way is also another decision.

Oh, I meant Young Griff from the books there. I expect that he, too, might end up believing he is the savior guy once folks tell him that's what his father Rhaegar believed. There is likely a reason why George has a character who allegedly returns from the dead and whose father happened to believe he was an important prophecy guy.

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8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I see nothing wrong with the Targaryens' true goal of ruling over a united Westeros being motivated by a desire to prevent the end of the world.

Ah yes, that famous "I don't want to conquer the planet out of personal greed or megalomania, I just want to save the world." It was so convincing and honest the first 15838 times it's been used ;)

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1 hour ago, Clueless Northman said:

Ah yes, that famous "I don't want to conquer the planet out of personal greed or megalomania, I just want to save the world." It was so convincing and honest the first 15838 times it's been used ;)

That's why we love Alexander.

"Why take over the world?"

"Because it's there!"

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I don't like it because it isn't relatable, and it's a criticism of ASOIAF in general rather than this show.

How can I judge Stannis when he's having vivid dreams of the world ending unless he does X? And he comes from a blood line know to have prophetic dreams and correctly predicted the fall of Valyria through dreams. The same situation will most likely occur with Rhaegar.

It absolutely screws with the principles of things.

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7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

I don't like it because it isn't relatable

So bossing and pushing people around and conquering 2/3rds of a continent just because you can is relatable?

7 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

How can I judge Stannis when he's having vivid dreams of the world ending unless he does X?

Maybe it has less to do with Stannis' dreams (he doesn't have any dreams; he spies it in the flames) and more to do with the fact that Stannis is unkind, close-minded, extremely entitled, overly-ambitious to the point of hypocrisy and inflexible....not to mention a kinslayer.

Keep in mind that Stannis doesn't really believe in this stuff. He's only doing it because he wants the Iron Throne. Rhaegar didn't care about the Iron Throne...judging from his actions, he didn't even care about political realities and consequences. He was solely focused on the prophecy...at least, until his father forced him to focus on waging war against Robert.

8 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

It absolutely screws with the principles of things.

How so?

 

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There's a very good argument that the most fascinating element of Stannis is the fact he's not ACTUALLY a man of honor. He talks a big game about the law, justice, and honor but every single time he's required to make a choice, he almost inevitably chooses what's expedient. Sort of like those really religious self-righteous people who have all manner of secrets yet STILL believe they're righteous.

If Stannis was really as righteous as he claimed, he never would have gone against Aerys let alone cheated on his wife, betrayed his ancestral gods, became a kinslayer, and so on.

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13 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

If Stannis was really as righteous as he claimed, he never would have gone against Aerys let alone cheated on his wife, betrayed his ancestral gods, became a kinslayer, and so on.

Exactly.

I can overlook the fact that he turned against Aerys in favor of Robert and being an closet atheist who uses religion as a weapon. I don't even begrudge him for cheating on Selyse.

But I draw the line at the way he treated Renly, Cressen and Ned. He was completely out of order in A Clash of Kings.

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19 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Because Viserys has already told his heir and I presume he is sticking with that.

Spoiler

Aegon is the daughter of Alicent Hightower and Viserys, so he hasn't been conceived yet. But maybe.

 

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7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

So bossing and pushing people around and conquering 2/3rds of a continent just because you can is relatable?

Maybe it has less to do with Stannis' dreams

Yes conquest is relatable and able to be put into an historic context with real world comparisons, there have been conquerors, many, never has there been one that believed they must conquer a specific target to save the world based on magic dreams and had a really good recent example of an earth shattering magic dream prediction having been heeded to successfully avoid catastrophe.

Or with Stannis maybe it is about the visions to the extent the text conveys.

Edited by chrisdaw
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1 minute ago, chrisdaw said:

Yes conquest is relatable and able to be put into an historic context with real world comparisons, there have been conquerors, many, never has there been one that believed they must conquer a specific target to save the world based on magic dreams and had a really good recent historic example of just that happening to follow.

Or maybe it is about the dreams to the extent the text conveys.

Aegon's Conquest is kind of weird, though, since it involves a guy with a couple of hundred men and three great lizards who thinks he should rule a continent ... for basically no reason. The guy never conquered anything else, was not threatened by his immediate neighbors nor do his forebears have a history of interest in or enmity with the peoples of Westeros.

Aegon isn't Alexander, has none of his motivations. And even Alexander didn't start out with the notion to conquer the known world.

Aegon is a weirdo guy who spent his nights brooding over a huge table looking like an accurate map of Westeros. Why? What did he need an entire continent for? If he was, historically, a guy more like Robert, somebody who lived for battle and glory then one could make a case that he was just so mad for war and conflict that he fought so long until he had subdued nearly an entire continent.

But the Aegon the histories tell us about don't paint the picture of such a man at all.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon's Conquest is kind of weird, though, since it involves a guy with a couple of hundred men and three great lizards who thinks he should rule a continent ... for basically no reason. The guy never conquered anything else, was not threatened by his immediate neighbors nor do his forebears have a history of interest in or enmity with the peoples of Westeros.

Aegon isn't Alexander, has none of his motivations. And even Alexander didn't start out with the notion to conquer the known world.

Aegon is a weirdo guy who spent his nights brooding over a huge table looking like an accurate map of Westeros. Why? What did he need an entire continent for? If he was, historically, a guy more like Robert, somebody who lived for battle and glory then one could make a case that he was just so mad for war and conflict that he fought so long until he had subdued nearly an entire continent.

But the Aegon the histories tell us about don't paint the picture of such a man at all.

Ehhhh,

George has pretty much stated Aegon's "reason" now but it's not like it wasn't sensible beforehand.

1. Obviously, Aegon is based on William the Conqueror, Duke of Normandy who proceeded to invade England and delivered one of the most one-sidedly crushing ass kickings in the history of Medieval warfare.

2. There IS a reason for Aegon to invade Westeros as he's been delivered a horrific insult by Lord Argyll when he had his messenger mutilated as well as his family honor insulted. There's frankly no reason NOT to crush the Stormlands and annex them.

3. The big wooden table implies something else entirely, which is that Aegon ALWAYS intended to conquer Westeros. He was just waiting for a pretext to do so and the right place to start.

4. I'm not sure, "Aegon never conquered anything else" is a defense when we know that he spent most of his life trying to conquer Westeros before consolidating his gains. He was a relatively young man when he started.

5. The books also indicate Aegon and company did engage in military adventurism in Essos but, as we see, it's apparently gained them nothing.

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4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I think understandable is a better word, because it has happened many times in the real world.

I mean it's certainly understandable if you have your messenger mutilated. I've lived through mutliple wars in my lifetime where the conflict is triggered by a need to prove my country's power and to punish attacks on it.

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2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

2. There IS a reason for Aegon to invade Westeros as he's been delivered a horrific insult by Lord Argyll when he had his messenger mutilated as well as his family honor insulted. There's frankly no reason NOT to crush the Stormlands and annex them.

That's a pretext for war with the Stormlands. If you say it is reason or justification to conquer the entire continent we are in the territory of, say, France being annoyed by something the Swiss government made justifies them conquering ALL OF EUROPE. That doesn't fly.

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

3. The big wooden table implies something else entirely, which is that Aegon ALWAYS intended to conquer Westeros. He was just waiting for a pretext to do so and the right place to start.

It kind of shows more - it shows a very deep interest in Westeros. Normal maps should suffice for a military campaign, you don't need to dedicate an entire room of your castle to this obsession.

2 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

4. I'm not sure, "Aegon never conquered anything else" is a defense when we know that he spent most of his life trying to conquer Westeros before consolidating his gains. He was a relatively young man when he started.

He did fight in another war in Essos, just beating the Volantenes back without actually taking possession of any territory.

Presumably that was to ensure nobody would attack his rear while he was occupied in Westeros, but still...

My point simply is Aegon isn't described as a guy who is much interested in war because he looks for glory and immortality that way.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Aegon's Conquest is kind of weird, though, since it involves a guy with a couple of hundred men and three great lizards who thinks he should rule a continent ... for basically no reason. The guy never conquered anything else, was not threatened by his immediate neighbors nor do his forebears have a history of interest in or enmity with the peoples of Westeros.

Aegon isn't Alexander, has none of his motivations. And even Alexander didn't start out with the notion to conquer the known world.

Aegon is a weirdo guy who spent his nights brooding over a huge table looking like an accurate map of Westeros. Why? What did he need an entire continent for? If he was, historically, a guy more like Robert, somebody who lived for battle and glory then one could make a case that he was just so mad for war and conflict that he fought so long until he had subdued nearly an entire continent.

But the Aegon the histories tell us about don't paint the picture of such a man at all.

Alexander started with the idea of taking revenge against The Persians for the Greco-Persian Wars but his father did make this great army for big conquests and Alexander definitely had that in mind since Persia occupied most of the known world back then.

Anyway there are definitely hints about Aegon having prophetic dreams and this may have something to do with the letter that Meria Martell send to him when they captured Rhaenys. Rhaenys had a lot of similarities with Rhaegar as well and he also must have had dreams. 

I will say that making the Valyrian dagger that Joffrey used to kill Bran a part of the prophecy is cringe though. I hope that the whole prophecy part does not defy the whole "atmoisphere" of the Dance though.  

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6 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

I will say that making the Valyrian dagger that Joffrey used to kill Bran a part of the prophecy is cringe though. I hope that the whole prophecy part does not defy the whole "atmoisphere" of the Dance though.  

To be fair, it being the King's Dagger that Joffrey casually gave away is oddly apropos.

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7 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

To be fair, it being the King's Dagger that Joffrey casually gave away is oddly apropos.

Yeah, it's stupid and I don't understand why everything has to be a fucking easteregg nowdays. This is not the MCU. It's a valyrian dagger, the whole point of the assasin using it because Littlefinger gave it to Joffrey to create speculations about The Lannisters and because it's obvious that such a rare and expensive weapon would belong to a very Rrich House. Just because Dumb and Dumber made it a a cliche Hollywood plot point in seasons 5+ does not mean that it should continue.

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11 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Yeah, it's stupid and I don't understand why everything has to be a fucking easteregg nowdays. This is not the MCU. It's a valyrian dagger, the whole point of the assasin using it because Littlefinger gave it to Joffrey to create speculations about The Lannisters and because it's obvious that such a rare and expensive weapon would belong to a very Rrich House. Just because Dumb and Dumber made it a a cliche Hollywood plot point in seasons 5+ does not mean that it should continue.

While I agree on principle, GoT decided to make the dagger a very special weapon when, in fact, it was just an unadorned and quite simple Valyrian steel dagger in the books. Not simple enough to be used by commoners, etc., of course, but also not a weapon only truly rich lords could afford.

But the show pretty much turned it into a royal weapon, so there isn't that much wrong when they use it.

As long as it doesn't get a name or is used all the time.

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9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While I agree on principle, GoT decided to make the dagger a very special weapon when, in fact, it was just an unadorned and quite simple Valyrian steel dagger in the books. Not simple enough to be used by commoners, etc., of course, but also not a weapon only truly rich lords could afford.

But the show pretty much turned it into a royal weapon, so there isn't that much wrong when they use it.

As long as it doesn't get a name or is used all the time.

Yeah, I don't know it makes it too cringe for. So did Maegor have it? And who gave it to Jahaerys? And why is this the weapon that kills the King? I know I am asking too much for how many plot holes the latter seasons of GOT had but I just don't think that they need to make GOT references all the time in this series.

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